usual suspect > wrote in message news:<mKAib.37091$

> > first of all eating vegan DOES help animals because it decreases demand
> > for meat.
>
> No, it doesn't. Vegans constitute a very tiny minority, at least in the
> developed nations of the world, and their dietary habits have negligible
> influence on the lives of farm animals.

Then this is EXACTLY the reason we need FAR MORE vegans --
so they WILL have a bigger impact on the lives of farm animals.
Each vegan is STILL saving the life of a dozen cows, a few hundred
chickens, and tens of pigs in their lifetime by being vegan than
eating
meat.
Secondly, if vegans or vegetarians constitute such a small minority,
then you have absolutely NOTHING to complain about.

> chosen to play an either-or game rather than support humane ranching
> does nothing to help the plight of any animal.

You are the one who is a fundamentalist anti-vegan religious fanatic
who absolutely wants the whole world to exclude the third option
of not eating the animals in the first place.

> No shit, Sherlock. It is a radical political act.

No, Gary had it right. Veganism is just an matter of eating.
Unlike you in the pro-meat religion, vegans happen to take into
account
the consequences of ALL their buying habits. So, they may consider
things which have nothing to do with veganism
(e.g. animals in entertainment).

> Yes, a sheltered and peculiar act of self-marginalization.

Lies and bullshit, from someone who has never seen the real world.

> This doesn't make it a way of life. Others, who are not vegan, are free
> to support animal welfare programs and agencies --

Hypocritical bullshit. If you don't happen to support the work or
philosophy of a particular charitable organization, like PETA,
you call their philosophy a "way of life" or "a religion".

Hunting and those in the slaughterhouse business are the ones who
are sheltered in their overly protected and unseen world by ultra-
conservative politicians. They, like Frank Purdue, make slaughtering
animals their entire life's work, never thinking of other
possibilities
for a REAL job.

> Veganism has nothing to do with the welfare of animals and everything to
> do with an anti-capitalist political philosophy which has been rejected
> in nearly every nation where it's been tried.

More insane bullshit lies. There is no more anti-capitalism in
animal rights philosophy than in any other philosophy. Millions of
Chinese and Soviet Red Army Communists could not care less about
brutally murdering and torturing billions of animals for food.

If the pro-meat fanatics were so "pro-capitalist", then would
come out STRONGLY in favor of legalizing ALL drugs and ALL
pornography.
Those are businesses which don't hurt anybody --- nobody FORCES
you to smoke pot or look at porn -- and which have been unfairly
crippled by anti-drug and anti-porn zealots.
But, naturally, pro-meat fanatics will not do that, it does not
directly benefit THEM. Like all religious fanatics, anti-vegetarian
cultists are concerned with general ideals like "capitalism"
and "freedom" being applied ONLY in favor of THEIR business.


Anti-veganism and anti-animal rights religions have absolutely NOTHING
to do with human rights. They can say they are for human rights the
same way Joseph Stalin was for his human right to murder millions of
Russians or the Spanish Inquisition was for their human rights to
torture non-Christians. Needlessly torturing animals
is the only "human right" the anti-vegans care about.

The anti-animal fanatics whine and complain about being forced not
to eat meat. Yet they FORCE BILLIONS of animals to be born, kept in
crates their whole lives, tortured and then murdered
illegally because these cults do not obey even the most
lax animal-slaughter laws.

They show their true anti-human colors when they force only THEIR
opinions to be heard in public schools, on tv, on radio, in
newspapers.
The pro-meat-industry cults violently stop pro-vegetarian groups from
airing THEIR points of view, from promoting vegetarian diets in
schools,
while forcing THEIR advertisements and THEIR products everywhere.

> Actually, it IS true. Animals with economic value are treated better
> than animals with no economic value. You ignore this point when shocking
> yourself and friends with PETA propaganda pamphlets, but visit a farm
> for yourself and see how animals are treated.

This statement shows how deeply entrenched the stupidity and lack
of brains the anti-animal rights cult in our country is. They could
take a trip to China and claim that every single Chinaman is happy
because they see nobody in prison or on in a slave camp or being
executed.

So then why do slaughterhouses and meat-packing plants violently
and illegally stop PETA and any other animal-rights groups from
videotaping
and recording the truth about all your alleged humane conditions?
Perhaps a few have, but for your argument to make even a BIT of sense,
ALL of them would have to.


> Sick animals don't gain weight,

Care to prove your wild accusation that if the meat-industry were
shut down, how sick animals would be born in the first place?

> Even veal calves, long the poster-animals of benighted zealots like
> yourself, are not kept in crates in the US. "The vast majority of
> animals raised for meat" in fact have sufficient range to move.
> Confinement is the exception, though it does have some merit: it


YOU ADMITTED IT!! YOU ADMITTED that confinement occurs!
Of course, you added the lie that it is "the exception".

You and the entire pro-meat cult religion are ENTIRELY discredited.
Democracy in this country is founded on TRUTH, and your religion
does EVERYthing to hide the truth about this holocaust.

> Do you have any information from agencies not opposed to
> ranching/farming to support this?

Do you have any information NOT from ranchers or the meat-industry
or those in government with ties to the meat industry to deny the
hormones

> Evidence from sources not polluted with the kind of partisanship of Peta
> or other activist groups? If it's wrong to castrate bull calves, do you
> promote spaying and neutering of dogs and cats?

You should get down on your hands and needs and kiss PETA on the ass
for their efforts to stop ALL unnecessary breeding of bulls and
domestic pets. Naturally, your ignorance is astounding.
Neutering dogs and cats who are homeless is appropriate to prevent
millions MORE dogs and cats from either freezing to death, starving
to death, or dying lonely in a gas chamber in a pound.
In contrast, PETA is NOT going to go into a factory farm to castrate
a bull to prevent future cows from being born. They are going to do
what the government, weak-willed politicians, the FBI,
and pro-meat fanatics like you are too cowardly to do: SHUT DOWN
THE FACTORY FARM!

> Do you have any direct evidence of this? I'm from a ranching family, and
> I've slaughtered more than my share of steers. It was neither inhumane
> nor painful for any animal.

Yeah, yeah. And I have been a vegetarian for 20 years and so is my
family,
all for animal rights. And I know for a fact that the trolls I have
persuaded to go vegetarian have suffered absolutely nothing either.
Don't lie and preach to me that shutting you and your ranching family
down causes you "hardship" or crap like that. It is GOOD for you.
It makes you THINK and TRY OTHER THINGS in life. It is INFINITELY
more HUMANE to all the cultists in the pro-meat religion to shut them
all down and force them in prison for life than ANYthing they have
EVER done to the animals they needlessly raised for food.

> Some dairy cattle are confined, MOST are not.

Another lie. Put the MOST in front of "confined" and you will be
closer to the truth. Even so, you STILL admit that SOME are confined.

That is QUITE a bit different from the meat religion's earlier mantra
that NOT dairy cattle are confined.

> How do you know they cannot turn around? Have you ever gone inside the
> "huge metal building"?

Good. Then let us in.

> Yes. Pesticides, herbicides, farm machinery, etc. It all takes a toll on
> animals -- a heavy toll in death and dismemberment. Davey's seventh
> point is correct.

It would take LESS of a toll if YOU and your pro-ranching cult family
(guess you learned from Charles Manson) spent your lives and careers
looking for ways of growing food with MINIMAL suffering and pain,
looking for biotechnological innovations in modifying plant food
to yield more protein, etc.

Fact: You will not innovate unless you are FORCED to.

> > It sounds to me like you are just another meat eater trying to justify
> > your cruel habit. Virtually all your statements are completely false.

That he is, Gary!

> Groups you support are aligned with the sole purpose of making it harder
> for some people to eat what they want.

Waaah!! Waaah!! BOO- HOO!! And you stop telling PETA and
pro-vegetarian
groups what THEY can do with THEIR time and money! I think every
nurse and doctor should refuse to assist a pro-meat cultist every time
they get a heart attack or have an accident. If you are so
"libertarian",
then you would leave alone those who wish to have no association with
your business.