whatever, I find it quite odd that people who eat meat have the time to
criticize people who don't even though it has nothing to do with them.

it's just like being environmental, and recycling. I've heard people say
it's a waste of time to recycle because there's so much garbage. Or why
buy an electric car, or use solar panels on your house, when it won't
really make a difference.

The truth is, that if everyone ate vegetarian, there would be enough
food to feed the entire world. and if everyone used renewable energy
our planet would be inhabitable in 100 years.

I didn't start this discussion. I don't go out of my way to tell people
they should or shouldn't do anything. You can eat all the meat you
want. But don't litter this newsgroup with lies and point the finger at
people who are making personal decisions that have nothing to do with
yours.


usual suspect wrote:
>
> Gary Beckwith wrote:
> > you are full of vegan baloney!
> >
> > first of all eating vegan DOES help animals because it decreases demand
> > for meat.
>
> No, it doesn't. Vegans constitute a very tiny minority, at least in the
> developed nations of the world, and their dietary habits have negligible
> influence on the lives of farm animals. What would improve the quality
> of farm animals is if you were to consume animals raised organically and
> in humane conditions. Such operations do exist. The fact that you have
> chosen to play an either-or game rather than support humane ranching
> does nothing to help the plight of any animal.
>
> > second, vegan is not just an eating habit.
>
> No shit, Sherlock. It is a radical political act.
>
> > it is a way of life.
>
> Yes, a sheltered and peculiar act of self-marginalization. Such actions
> become a "way of life" particularly when one ostracizes societal norms
> and puts oneself on the fringe. VeganISM is a subculture.
>
> > many
> > vegans don't just refrain from eating meat, they also contribute to
> > organizations such as Farm Sanctuary or PETA,
>
> This doesn't make it a way of life. Others, who are not vegan, are free
> to support animal welfare programs and agencies -- which, incidentally,
> are not concerns of PETA (Peta is for animal rights, not welfare).
>
> > that have many programs
> > that directly affect the welfare of animals.
>
> Veganism has nothing to do with the welfare of animals and everything to
> do with an anti-capitalist political philosophy which has been rejected
> in nearly every nation where it's been tried. The exceptions maintain
> their anti-capitalism by force, not by popular choice.
>
> > now, i have to take particular issue with your portrayal of the meat
> > industry providing a good life for many animals.
>
> Why?
>
> > That simply is NOT true.
>
> Actually, it IS true. Animals with economic value are treated better
> than animals with no economic value. You ignore this point when shocking
> yourself and friends with PETA propaganda pamphlets, but visit a farm
> for yourself and see how animals are treated. Sick animals don't gain
> weight, they lose weight; sick animals don't bring more revenue, they
> drain revenue; sick animals do not save ranchers money, they lose
> ranchers money.
>
> > The vast majority of animals raised for meat live HORRIBLE
> > lives.
>
> Care to prove that wild accusation?
>
> > They are confined to very small areas,
>
> Even veal calves, long the poster-animals of benighted zealots like
> yourself, are not kept in crates in the US. "The vast majority of
> animals raised for meat" in fact have sufficient range to move.
> Confinement is the exception, though it does have some merit: it
> prevents disease in younger animals, injuries from aggressive or
> territorial animals, etc. I realize in some parts of the country the
> scale of farming requires intensive methods including confinement; this,
> though, is usually a function of restricted land-use and economies of scale.
>
> > pumped with hormones,
>
> Do you have any information from agencies not opposed to
> ranching/farming to support this?
>
> > body parts removed,
>
> Evidence from sources not polluted with the kind of partisanship of Peta
> or other activist groups? If it's wrong to castrate bull calves, do you
> promote spaying and neutering of dogs and cats?
>
> > and killed in very painful and inhumane ways.
>
> Do you have any direct evidence of this? I'm from a ranching family, and
> I've slaughtered more than my share of steers. It was neither inhumane
> nor painful for any animal.
>
> <snip>
>
> > I know,
> > I live in farm country and I see it every day.
>
> You do not know, and you probably live in the suburbs if you live near
> any "farm country." Cattle aren't slaughtered out in the pasture,
> nitwit. USDA makes sure of that.
>
> > Even dairy cows are
> > often confined to indoor barns and never get to roam.
>
> Some dairy cattle are confined, MOST are not. The reasons can be
> manifold, but most cattle roam pastures as long as there's sufficient
> forage for grazing.
>
> > I drive by a
> > dairy farm almost every day, that is basically a huge metal building
> > full of cows that can't even turn around. I've never seen them let
> > outside in years.
>
> How do you know they cannot turn around? Have you ever gone inside the
> "huge metal building"?
>
> > your #7 is outrageous. what exactly are you thinking of? A vegetable
> > crop that kills more animals than meat?
>
> Yes. Pesticides, herbicides, farm machinery, etc. It all takes a toll on
> animals -- a heavy toll in death and dismemberment. Davey's seventh
> point is correct.
>
> > you should get your facts straight before you state them as "facts".
>
> So should you, Einstein.
>
> > It sounds to me like you are just another meat eater trying to justify
> > your cruel habit. Virtually all your statements are completely false.
>
> Davey isn't exactly the sharpest tool in the shed, but in this case he's
> correct.
>
> > If you do some research, read some books, you'll get the real facts.
>
> If you do some research rather than reading propaganda from groups like
> Peta, maybe you'll get the real facts.
>
> > But then I suppose you'll turn on your blinders and then start talking
> > about how vegetables feel just as much pain when they are killed so
> > there's no reason to be vegetarian. I've actually heard that one
> > before.
>
> No, he'll keep on about animals and life. He doesn't alter his posts one
> bit. As for wearing blinders, what's your excuse, country boy?
>
> > Look, if you want to eat meat, go ahead and do it. No one is stopping
> > you.
>
> Groups you support are aligned with the sole purpose of making it harder
> for some people to eat what they want. Stop supporting anti-meat
> organizations if you're so libertarian. Otherwise, stop whining when
> others clear up your misunderstandings about ranching and animal welfare.
>
> > Don't try to tell vegetarians that their lifestyle is wrong,
> > though.
>
> It's a free country and he can do that if he wants.
>
> > Especially if you are going to make your argument is completely
> > untrue.
>
> Especially if you're going to write bad sentences. Ick.