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Paul E. Lehmann

wrote:

> I'm not worried about the derision. What worries
> me is advice given without any examples to back
> it up. Statements like " I wouldn't do that"
> without a reason why just doesn't cut it.
> Reasons like "That doesn't sound too appetizing"
> is not very scientific.
>
> Bob

Bob,

The reason I especially like this newsgroup is
because there is no (or very little) flaming. If
you want to see what some other newsgroups have
become, just visit some of the political or
computer newsgroups.

If you want some (non scientific) backing from me
it would be (IMHO), that mold WILL produce SOME
byproducts that may not be desireable in the
final product. Examples would be Brett and VA
infections not to mention some possible more
serious ones depending on part of the percnet
alcohol, pH etc.

There are a LOT of different kinds of mold and I
am not an expert and I doubt that is your case.
I will leave this topic to the experts.

From what I have read, green mold is
characteristic of Penicillian. Maybe that is
what is being grown by the OP, maybe not.
Maybe it would produce no harm, maybe not.

I am not a biologist and I do not know what
percentage of alcohol would protect a must from
byproducts that would affect the product (wine or
cider) in an adverse manner taste or possible
heath issues. The advice I gave errors on the
side of caution.

It may very well be the case that the advice you
gave is acceptable (in this particular case) but
can you be sure that it will cause no harm in all
cases? I think this is the question that should
be asked.

The OP is NOT talking about a LARGE quantity of
cider (wine), at least not by my definition. If
in doubt AND if the OP were making a LARGE
quantity of wine or cider, then I think the very
best advice I could give would be to send a
sample to a lab. Most labs are reasonable -
especially if we are talking about large volumes
of product. If we are NOT talking about large
volumes then I think my advice still stands.

I am quite sure you will disagree based on YOUR
experience but like the old saying goes "Your
mileage may vary.

I hope we can all benefit from a dialog and get
along. That is my primary concern.

Paul

>
> On Oct 31, 10:16 am, jim >
> wrote:
>> Sadly there seems to be a degree of derision on
>> this thread as well as
>> the useful opinions and information. The
>> information is useful, the derision is not.
>>
>> I am not sure myself as to whether all
>> byproducts of bacterial spoilage are
>> neutralised when the alcohol levels rise high
>> enough to
>> kill the infection. I couldn't find much
>> online about it and I don't know whether many
>> of these byproducts are poisonous either.
>> Information and opinion given by long-term
>> winemakers on this thread is interesting though
>> and does help to form a strategy as well as
>> opinion.
>>
>> I'd be interesting to hear more on this
>> subject. Perhaps the lack of testimony from
>> people quoting a negative experience shows that
>> there
>> is rarely a problem with procedures suggested.
>> Perhaps it just shows that they haven't read
>> this thread yet.
>>
>> Jim (a newb)
>>
>> On Oct 31, 2:28 pm, wrote:
>>
>> > You can never have enough info. If she makes
>> > a decision based on the limited info
>> > presented here, I will guarantee it will be
>> > an ill- informed decision.
>>
>> > Bob
>>
>> > On Oct 30, 11:56 am, "Paul E. Lehmann"
>> > > wrote:
>>
>> > > wrote:
>> > > >> If you want to drink bad smelling
>> > > >> "wine", be my
>> > > >> guest. If you want to risk
>> > > >> contaminating other
>> > > >> things in your winery, go ahead. I am
>> > > >> not the wine police I am merely making
>> > > >> suggestions.
>>
>> > > > I'm making suggestions myself based on my
>> > > > observations and experiences combined
>> > > > with info given to me by a good
>> > > > winemaker. I'm not suggesting drinking
>> > > > bad stuff, I'm suggesting a method to fix
>> > > > it.
>>
>> > > > "Sick, yes, deadly - life threatening ill
>> > > > no. Of
>> > > >> course, to the best of my knowledge, I
>> > > >> have never drunk a low alcohol beverage
>> > > >> that had green mold
>> > > >> growing on it. To each his own. Happy
>> > > >> wine - errr - beverage making "
>>
>> > > > I haven't even heard of anyone getting
>> > > > sick. Like I said, I'm suggesting ways to
>> > > > fix it not ways to drink it.
>>
>> > > I think Cathy has enough information to
>> > > make her decision.
>>
>> > > > "On Oct 26, 11:54 am, "Paul E. Lehmann"
>> > > > > wrote:
>> > > >> wrote:
>> > > >> > The two Paul's in this thread would
>> > > >> > make good Republican Presidential
>> > > >> > candidates.
>>
>> > > >> I would have to change my party
>> > > >> affiliation before I did that
>>
>> > > >> > Instilling IRRATIONAL FEAR into
>> > > >> > anyone who ever came across mold or a
>> > > >> > bad smelling wine.
>>
>> > > >> If you want to drink bad smelling
>> > > >> "wine", be my
>> > > >> guest. If you want to risk
>> > > >> contaminating other
>> > > >> things in your winery, go ahead. I am
>> > > >> not the wine police I am merely making
>> > > >> suggestions.
>>
>> > > >> > On the contrary, there are no
>> > > >> > known pathogens that exist in wine.
>>
>> > > >> I don't believe the "cider" had enough
>> > > >> sugar to
>> > > >> make "wine". The words we
>>
>> > > >> .."temp was bad and we had green mold on
>> > > >> top of the cider (just apple juice let
>> > > >> to ferment by itself, no yeast or other
>> > > >> additives)."
>>
>> > > >> > It's the
>> > > >> > reason the Board of Health exempts
>> > > >> > wineries from reqiurements of section
>> > > >> > 20C. Has anyone on this board heard of
>> > > >> > anyone getting sick from bad wine?
>> > > >> > Anyone?
>>
>> > > >> Sick, yes, deadly - life threatening ill
>> > > >> no. Of course, to the best of my
>> > > >> knowledge, I have never drunk a low
>> > > >> alcohol beverage that had green mold
>> > > >> growing on it. To each his own. Happy
>> > > >> wine - errr - beverage making
>>
>> > > >> > Frederick mentioned the push down
>> > > >> > of the cap. Both Pauls have pushed
>> > > >> > those "toxins" down into the wine
>> > > >> > hundreds of times and didn't even know
>> > > >> > it. Those toxins are always there.
>> > > >> > Even SO2 doesn't kill them. SO2 puts
>> > > >> > them in suspended animation until the
>> > > >> > SO2 levels drop. Bleach would kill
>> > > >> > them but then there really would be
>> > > >> > "toxins" in the wine. How many
>> > > >> > "toxins" have people drunk in this
>> > > >> > world when the SO2 levels of the wine
>> > > >> > they are drinking become low?? Just
>> > > >> > because you can't see them doesn't
>> > > >> > mean they are not there and it's
>> > > >> > ironic that the cap keeps getting
>> > > >> > pushed into the fermenting must to
>> > > >> > kill them. Maybe the fermentation does
>> > > >> > do something. Imagine that.
>>
>> > > >> > Bob
>>
>> > > >> > On Oct 25, 8:57 pm, Paul Arthur
>> > > >> > > wrote:
>> > > >> >> On 2007-10-25, Cathy Boer
>> > > >> >> > wrote:
>>
>> > > >> >> > After reading the comments about
>> > > >> >> > mold in primary fermentation stage;
>> > > >> >> > we started 4 gallons of apple cider
>> > > >> >> > but the temp was bad and we had
>> > > >> >> > green mold on top of the cider
>> > > >> >> > (just apple juice let to ferment by
>> > > >> >> > itself, no yeast or other
>> > > >> >> > additives).
>>
>> > > >> >> > We ended up throwing it down the
>> > > >> >> > drain, but could we have saved the
>> > > >> >> > juice by adding yeast???
>>
>> > > >> >> > Any comments/help would be
>> > > >> >> > appreciated. We're new at all this
>> > > >> >> > stuff!
>>
>> > > >> >> It depends on how advanced the mold
>> > > >> >> is. If you catch it fairly quickly
>> > > >> >> and it's only on top, you can rack
>> > > >> >> the must out from under the mold
>> > > >> >> (leaving behind a couple of inches to
>> > > >> >> make sure you don't carry the mold
>> > > >> >> into the new fermenter) and pitch
>> > > >> >> yeast. If it's been growing for a
>> > > >> >> while toss it, as the mold produces
>> > > >> >> toxins that will have spread
>> > > >> >> throughout the must and cannot be
>> > > >> >> easily removed.
>>
>> > > >> >> --
>> > > >> >> I just forgot my whole philosophy of
>> > > >> >> life!!!