I have two separate gallons of Zinfandel that are about a month away
from bottling. One gallon was oaked at the last racking but has had no
tannin added, the other was not oaked, but I added a dose of tannin
(1/4 teaspoon) at the start. With one gallon, I used RC212, the other,
Flor Sherry. Both were made from concentrate.

So, I have two different gallons, prepared slightly differently, but
what they have in common is neither has any character. Both are
extremely bland and uninteresting. They are dry and the PH is spot on
(3.43 and 3.5).

I'm thinking that with this next (last) racking, I'll add a bit more
tannin to each and top them up with a little commercial zin and a
little mixed vinifera concentrate. I'll probably oak one or both again.
Does anyone else have any ideas for how to improve these zins?

Thanks,

Greg G.

Where did you get the grapes/juice? And how long since you started
these?

greg,

It sounds like you're doing about all you can at this point. I've made
red concentrate wines in the past, but gave up because they all had so
little character of the named variety. It might have been the specific
fruit source for yours, i.e., poor grapes, or it might have been the
lack of skins in the fermentation. Both are things that you probably
can't fix now. Adding more oak & tannin will put some kind of flavor in
the wine, but not the complexity you want. Adding Vinifera concentrate
might help, but will never give you the results you want, imho.

There's also the issue of hydroxymethylfurfural giving all concentrate
based wines a similar taste (in my experience).

My opinion is that, sadly, concentrates, esp. reds, just aren't a match
for whole fruit fermentations.

--
Mike MTM, Cokesbury, NJ, USA

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Rob wrote:
Where did you get the grapes/juice? And how long since you started
these?

The juice was concentrate purchased from a brewing shop. I believe the
brand was Alexander's.

These were started near the end of May. I racked the first time at
about the 1 month mark, and I'm getting ready to rack again in the next
few days. Fermentation has been complete for a while now.

Greg

Mike McGeough wrote:
greg,
...
There's also the issue of hydroxymethylfurfural giving all concentrate
based wines a similar taste (in my experience).
...

Fascinating... There seems to have been a lot written on the subject,
but I've never heard of this before. I'm sure this is at least a
partial explanation for what I'm experiencing.

Oddly enough, all of my other batches made from Welches Niagara or
Concord concentrate or raisins seem to be shaping up fine.

Greg

I really don't have knowledge of concentrates so can't comment on them
specifically, but in my experience the qualities you are speaking about
- character, backbone, etc.- develop a lot with age and its very hard
to judge these things early, especially before bottling.

The juice was concentrate purchased from a brewing shop. I believe the
brand was Alexander's.

I made some concentrate and sterile juice wines early in my
wine-making, but now I hold out for fruit.

Having said that, one of the wines I made was from Alexanders juice
(not concentrate, but one assumes the juice is where they make the
concentrate...) - it was a merlot and had exactly the same problem.
Weak, no body, and eventually, while trying to rescue it, I overoaked
it. I found that my best juice wines came from buying sterile juice,
not concentrates, and I avoided Alexander's from then on.

Just my opinion.

Oh, and I suspect that Niagara and Concord concentrates work so well
because they've been the core of the grape concentrate business so
long, they've either bred problems out of the grapes or they've
perfected all the processes around these two grape varieties.

Rob

miker wrote:
I really don't have knowledge of concentrates so can't comment on them
specifically, but in my experience the qualities you are speaking about
- character, backbone, etc.- develop a lot with age and its very hard
to judge these things early, especially before bottling.

True, but those characteristics have to come from somewhere. At this
point, tap water is more interesting than my Zins. This early in the
process I would expect to be picking up on some edginess from the
higher (more complex) alcohol molecules as well as a bit of yeastiness
since fermentation hasn't been complete for very long.

Anyway, I hope to add a little complexity before bottling (tannins,
oak, vinifera concentrate, etc.). Perhaps between this and some time in
the bottle these will improve.

Thanks for your input.

Greg G.

wrote in message
ups.com...
I have two separate gallons of Zinfandel that are about a month away
from bottling. One gallon was oaked at the last racking but has had no
tannin added, the other was not oaked, but I added a dose of tannin
(1/4 teaspoon) at the start. With one gallon, I used RC212, the other,
Flor Sherry. Both were made from concentrate.

So, I have two different gallons, prepared slightly differently, but
what they have in common is neither has any character. Both are
extremely bland and uninteresting. They are dry and the PH is spot on
(3.43 and 3.5).

I'm thinking that with this next (last) racking, I'll add a bit more
tannin to each and top them up with a little commercial zin and a
little mixed vinifera concentrate. I'll probably oak one or both again.
Does anyone else have any ideas for how to improve these zins?

Thanks,

Greg G.

Greg,

High quality, red wine grapes have colorless juice. All of the red color is
in the grape skins. Red wine is made by crushing the grapes and then
fermenting the juice, pulp, skins and the seeds together for several days.
During fermentation, the color is extracted from the skins. However, many
other materials besides color are also extracted from the seeds and skins
during red fermentations and these other materials are why red wines taste
different than white wines.

Sterile red juice is made by crushing the grapes and then heating the juice,
pulp, skins and the seeds together for a few minutes. The heat extracts
much of the color, but little else (like tannin and some of the flavor
producing materials) is extracted. Red concentrate is made by removing
water from sterile red juice using a vacuum pan. So, sterile red juice and
red concentrate contain little phenolic materials, and wines made from these
materials are colored red but taste more like white wines. Your Zinfandel
wine lacks phenolic materials, so additions of tannin, oak, vanillin, etc
should help.

Good luck,
Lum
Del Mar, California, USA
www.geocities.com/lumeisenman

Greg

I had a similar problem with a white Vineco kit wine that I bought. I can't
remember the specific type of wine it was (Hock?) but it tasted like
grapefruit juice. It wasn't bad tasting but wine just shouldn't taste like
grapefruit juice, right? I complained to my local wine shop and they told
me to bring in some and they would get Vineco to test it for me. May have
been my fault or not, who knows? End result - I got a brand new kit.

Moral of the story is that it may be worth your while to talk to the company
who made the kit.

I think in the interests of their company it was cheaper for the company to
just replace the kit. It's cheap advertising for them. I have my doubts
that they even tested it.

Frances