Hello everyone. I need your opinions on a crazy idea I had for a
product recently. This is so simple, it's either a dumb idea or a good
solution to an age-old problem so here goes...

What do you guys (and gals) think about using small submersible
plastic balls instead of wine or juice to keep your wine levels up
during closed-container primary and secondary fermentation? As the
wine evaporates, just throw in a few balls instead of adding wine to
top off? Of course the balls would be fabricated from food-grade
plastic (same stuff that clear disposable water bottles are made of).
I always end up wasting wine when topping off since there's always
some left in the smaller bottle. It's also a messier operation than
just adding the balls.

In my potentially irrational state of mind, I've gone ahead and
submitted a preliminary patent application to protect the intellectual
property although I'm pretty sure this idea is so obvious it will not
be patentable. Please let me know if you guys think this idea is worth
productizing and if so, what's a desirable quantity to sell from an
end-user perspective (i.e. 1/2 gallon bag?) and what is the product
worth to the consumer ($)?

Thanks in advance for your opinions.

Regards,
Charles Erwin

In article ,
says...
What do you guys (and gals) think about using small submersible
plastic balls instead of wine or juice to keep your wine levels up
during closed-container primary and secondary fermentation?

I like the idea. I may be hard to add the balls to the
fermenter if the fill hole is small.

Actually, I had wondered the same thought when looking
at the big commercial vat -- why couldn't they have
inflatable bladders to keep the wine at the proper level?

Perhaps one reason for topping up has been the way
wine is taxed, by capacity, so it makes sense to jam
as much in as possible. Of course, home winemakers
don't have that concern so adding space-fillers would
work if you don't have any spare juice to top it off.

Bob Devine

I'd feel much more comfortable adding a glass product to wine for any
length of time than plastic. Many people on this NG have mentioned
using glass marbles to make up volume in a container. I have done this
myself in a pinch but no longer do it. First, the cost of marbles may
be more than the cost of buying extra grapes or juice to have around as
extra for topping up. Secondly, I've found it increases my losses in
subsequent rackings. Wine gets trapped between the marbles yet
sediment collects on the top layer. Finally, it's additional work to
get the marbles out and cleaned up.

For me, it's much easier to get some of last year's wine (or a similar
commercial wine) in an emergency but, honestly, it's easiest to make
extra 'top-up' wine.

RD

Not irrational at all - but not completely original (you might want to think
twice before spending the $ to patent anything!)

Plastic is less than the ideal material. glass is more dense, and cleaner.
Many on this forum and elsehwere have suggested, and use, sanitized glass
marbles to do just what you are proposing.

A thought for you; come up with a cheap reliable source of glass marbles in
varying sizes. Develop a way of putting them into glass carboys without
risking cracking the carboy. Market the glass marbles, in a variety of
sizes, in bagged lots, through the home winemaking stores.

If it works, you can pay me off with a bottle of Ornellaia!



Hello everyone. I need your opinions on a crazy idea I had for a
product recently. This is so simple, it's either a dumb idea or a good
solution to an age-old problem so here goes...

What do you guys (and gals) think about using small submersible
plastic balls instead of wine or juice to keep your wine levels up
during closed-container primary and secondary fermentation? As the
wine evaporates, just throw in a few balls instead of adding wine to
top off? Of course the balls would be fabricated from food-grade
plastic (same stuff that clear disposable water bottles are made of).
I always end up wasting wine when topping off since there's always
some left in the smaller bottle. It's also a messier operation than
just adding the balls.

In my potentially irrational state of mind, I've gone ahead and
submitted a preliminary patent application to protect the intellectual
property although I'm pretty sure this idea is so obvious it will not
be patentable. Please let me know if you guys think this idea is worth
productizing and if so, what's a desirable quantity to sell from an
end-user perspective (i.e. 1/2 gallon bag?) and what is the product
worth to the consumer ($)?

Thanks in advance for your opinions.

Regards,
Charles Erwin

Just use marbles....


the best option of course is to rack into a smaller container so there
is no headspace....then if you have to top up you top up you split some
off into a second container and top up in the smallest container
possible (4 liter jug, 1.5 L magnum, .5 liter bottle...etc...).


Charles E wrote:
Hello everyone. I need your opinions on a crazy idea I had for a
product recently. This is so simple, it's either a dumb idea or a good
solution to an age-old problem so here goes...

What do you guys (and gals) think about using small submersible
plastic balls instead of wine or juice to keep your wine levels up
during closed-container primary and secondary fermentation? As the
wine evaporates, just throw in a few balls instead of adding wine to
top off? Of course the balls would be fabricated from food-grade
plastic (same stuff that clear disposable water bottles are made of).
I always end up wasting wine when topping off since there's always
some left in the smaller bottle. It's also a messier operation than
just adding the balls.

In my potentially irrational state of mind, I've gone ahead and
submitted a preliminary patent application to protect the intellectual
property although I'm pretty sure this idea is so obvious it will not
be patentable. Please let me know if you guys think this idea is worth
productizing and if so, what's a desirable quantity to sell from an
end-user perspective (i.e. 1/2 gallon bag?) and what is the product
worth to the consumer ($)?

Thanks in advance for your opinions.

Regards,
Charles Erwin

Like you, I was originally concerned about the plastic adding
off-flavors or aromas but then I realized most open-top fermentations
use non-food grade plastic containers. The fermentation conditions in
the primary fermentation vessel are more caustic to the plastic (i.e.
elevated temp, turbidity, higher acidity, etc) that the secondary
fermentation vessel. I don't think you'd want to use fillers (glass or
plastic) for long-term ageing but seems like secondary fermentation is
when you usually need the extra volume in the closed-top fermentation
vessel.

That's a very interesting point on the wine being trapped between the
sediment layer and carboy base when using marbles. I would have never
even considered that. That is a bummer...

Thanks for your input!


On 25 Jul 2006 05:38:53 -0700, "RD" wrote:

I'd feel much more comfortable adding a glass product to wine for any
length of time than plastic. Many people on this NG have mentioned
using glass marbles to make up volume in a container. I have done this
myself in a pinch but no longer do it. First, the cost of marbles may
be more than the cost of buying extra grapes or juice to have around as
extra for topping up. Secondly, I've found it increases my losses in
subsequent rackings. Wine gets trapped between the marbles yet
sediment collects on the top layer. Finally, it's additional work to
get the marbles out and cleaned up.

For me, it's much easier to get some of last year's wine (or a similar
commercial wine) in an emergency but, honestly, it's easiest to make
extra 'top-up' wine.

RD

I usually have the extra juice. In my mind, it's just seems more
convenient to top off with a solid volume than liquid because you
likely either waste the extra liquid or need to find progressively
smaller containers to keep the left over juice. Not to mention
cleaning old airlocks and bottles whenever topping off. For me that's
always been a pain in the keester...


On Tue, 25 Jul 2006 05:30:44 GMT, Bob Devine
wrote:

In article ,
says...
What do you guys (and gals) think about using small submersible
plastic balls instead of wine or juice to keep your wine levels up
during closed-container primary and secondary fermentation?

I like the idea. I may be hard to add the balls to the
fermenter if the fill hole is small.

Actually, I had wondered the same thought when looking
at the big commercial vat -- why couldn't they have
inflatable bladders to keep the wine at the proper level?

Perhaps one reason for topping up has been the way
wine is taxed, by capacity, so it makes sense to jam
as much in as possible. Of course, home winemakers
don't have that concern so adding space-fillers would
work if you don't have any spare juice to top it off.

Bob Devine

I just filed a preliminary patent app which only costs $75 and buys
you some time to investigate market potential under patent pending
status. I formal patent would have to be submitted after 12 months if
the product proves to be feasible.

Anyway, good idea on the varying size glass marbles. Keeping them from
cracking the carboy is the trick. I was basically trying to do the
same thing with plastic balls. When you say "less than ideal", realize
that the plastic only has to be slightly more dense than water to
sink. Additional density only hastens the descent to the bottom of the
tank. Plastic is of course far more impact resistant than glass and
costs less. As far as cleanliness goes, I believe an FDA approved
plastic is virtually impervious to the agents in wine and the surface
can be polished smooth in the tool just like glass. If you're thinking
the plastic might contribute off odors or flavors, that's a major
concern of mine too. However, as I mentioned in a prior post, most of
us probably conduct primary fermentations in open-top plastic
containers that are not FDA approved plastic. In my mind, if those
containers under primary fermentation conditions don't contribute
off-tastes and aromas, I doubt the relatively small plastic ball
surface to wine surface ratio in secondary fermentation vessels would
contribute a percievable off taste or aroma.

Thanks for your post. I appreciate your time and advice.



On Tue, 25 Jul 2006 17:27:39 GMT, "Ric" wrote:

Not irrational at all - but not completely original (you might want to think
twice before spending the $ to patent anything!)

Plastic is less than the ideal material. glass is more dense, and cleaner.
Many on this forum and elsehwere have suggested, and use, sanitized glass
marbles to do just what you are proposing.

A thought for you; come up with a cheap reliable source of glass marbles in
varying sizes. Develop a way of putting them into glass carboys without
risking cracking the carboy. Market the glass marbles, in a variety of
sizes, in bagged lots, through the home winemaking stores.

If it works, you can pay me off with a bottle of Ornellaia!



Hello everyone. I need your opinions on a crazy idea I had for a
product recently. This is so simple, it's either a dumb idea or a good
solution to an age-old problem so here goes...

What do you guys (and gals) think about using small submersible
plastic balls instead of wine or juice to keep your wine levels up
during closed-container primary and secondary fermentation? As the
wine evaporates, just throw in a few balls instead of adding wine to
top off? Of course the balls would be fabricated from food-grade
plastic (same stuff that clear disposable water bottles are made of).
I always end up wasting wine when topping off since there's always
some left in the smaller bottle. It's also a messier operation than
just adding the balls.

In my potentially irrational state of mind, I've gone ahead and
submitted a preliminary patent application to protect the intellectual
property although I'm pretty sure this idea is so obvious it will not
be patentable. Please let me know if you guys think this idea is worth
productizing and if so, what's a desirable quantity to sell from an
end-user perspective (i.e. 1/2 gallon bag?) and what is the product
worth to the consumer ($)?

Thanks in advance for your opinions.

Regards,
Charles Erwin

Agreed. I'm just lazy and thought the plastic balls would save some
time and effort...


On 25 Jul 2006 20:51:29 -0700, "Droopy" wrote:

Just use marbles....


the best option of course is to rack into a smaller container so there
is no headspace....then if you have to top up you top up you split some
off into a second container and top up in the smallest container
possible (4 liter jug, 1.5 L magnum, .5 liter bottle...etc...).


Charles E wrote:
Hello everyone. I need your opinions on a crazy idea I had for a
product recently. This is so simple, it's either a dumb idea or a good
solution to an age-old problem so here goes...

What do you guys (and gals) think about using small submersible
plastic balls instead of wine or juice to keep your wine levels up
during closed-container primary and secondary fermentation? As the
wine evaporates, just throw in a few balls instead of adding wine to
top off? Of course the balls would be fabricated from food-grade
plastic (same stuff that clear disposable water bottles are made of).
I always end up wasting wine when topping off since there's always
some left in the smaller bottle. It's also a messier operation than
just adding the balls.

In my potentially irrational state of mind, I've gone ahead and
submitted a preliminary patent application to protect the intellectual
property although I'm pretty sure this idea is so obvious it will not
be patentable. Please let me know if you guys think this idea is worth
productizing and if so, what's a desirable quantity to sell from an
end-user perspective (i.e. 1/2 gallon bag?) and what is the product
worth to the consumer ($)?

Thanks in advance for your opinions.

Regards,
Charles Erwin

On 7/26/2006 11:29 PM, Charles E wrote:
[snipped]

However, as I mentioned in a prior post, most of
us probably conduct primary fermentations in open-top plastic
containers that are not FDA approved plastic. In my mind, if those
containers under primary fermentation conditions don't contribute
off-tastes and aromas, I doubt the relatively small plastic ball
surface to wine surface ratio in secondary fermentation vessels would
contribute a percievable off taste or aroma.

Charles,

I'm not sure what "FDA approved plastic" is, but I'd wager that most
home winemakers who use a plastic primary ensure that it is of food
grade quality. I know that I do, as the additional cost for a food
grade primary fermenter is quite trivial compared to the cost of the
ingredients being fermented in it, and of course there is no price tag
for the health of the consumers of the wine.


Cheers,
Ken

Each year, I test several dozen wines made by home winemakers. Most use
plastic trash-cans as fermenters. I have not kept score, but I am sure very
few plastic fermenters in San Diego County are made of "food grade" plastic.
Lum

"mail box" wrote in message
...
On 7/26/2006 11:29 PM, Charles E wrote:
[snipped]

However, as I mentioned in a prior post, most of
us probably conduct primary fermentations in open-top plastic
containers that are not FDA approved plastic. In my mind, if those
containers under primary fermentation conditions don't contribute
off-tastes and aromas, I doubt the relatively small plastic ball
surface to wine surface ratio in secondary fermentation vessels would
contribute a percievable off taste or aroma.

Charles,

I'm not sure what "FDA approved plastic" is, but I'd wager that most
home winemakers who use a plastic primary ensure that it is of food
grade quality. I know that I do, as the additional cost for a food
grade primary fermenter is quite trivial compared to the cost of the
ingredients being fermented in it, and of course there is no price tag
for the health of the consumers of the wine.


Cheers,
Ken

ya can only hope they were NEW plastic trash-cans. :*)

I have made many a peach brandy just in NEW plastic trash-cans, scrubbed
and sprayed down with "no rinse". Nothing ever came of it, but good brandy.

For wine making, I've stayed with primaries from wine kits and wine
stores, guess I'm cautious in my old age. :*)

DAve

Lum Eisenman wrote:
Each year, I test several dozen wines made by home winemakers. Most use
plastic trash-cans as fermenters. I have not kept score, but I am sure very
few plastic fermenters in San Diego County are made of "food grade" plastic.
Lum

"mail box" wrote in message
...
On 7/26/2006 11:29 PM, Charles E wrote:
[snipped]

However, as I mentioned in a prior post, most of
us probably conduct primary fermentations in open-top plastic
containers that are not FDA approved plastic. In my mind, if those
containers under primary fermentation conditions don't contribute
off-tastes and aromas, I doubt the relatively small plastic ball
surface to wine surface ratio in secondary fermentation vessels would
contribute a percievable off taste or aroma.
Charles,

I'm not sure what "FDA approved plastic" is, but I'd wager that most
home winemakers who use a plastic primary ensure that it is of food
grade quality. I know that I do, as the additional cost for a food
grade primary fermenter is quite trivial compared to the cost of the
ingredients being fermented in it, and of course there is no price tag
for the health of the consumers of the wine.


Cheers,
Ken

"Food grade" just means that there should be a minimal amount of
plasticizers and unreacted momomers left after polymerization. that
stuff is not benign.....but at the levels found in plastic is it not
acutely toxic either. One concern is that those chemicals are often
carcinogenic, and there are often chronic effects associated with them.


While a trash can you have used 40 times already should not be a great
concern, there could be some chemical release the first few times you
use it.......and when talking about things that you use a lot of like
"tupperware" containers you definately want them to be made of food
grade plastic.


Dave Allison wrote:
ya can only hope they were NEW plastic trash-cans. :*)

I have made many a peach brandy just in NEW plastic trash-cans, scrubbed
and sprayed down with "no rinse". Nothing ever came of it, but good brandy.

For wine making, I've stayed with primaries from wine kits and wine
stores, guess I'm cautious in my old age. :*)

DAve

Lum Eisenman wrote:
Each year, I test several dozen wines made by home winemakers. Most use
plastic trash-cans as fermenters. I have not kept score, but I am sure very
few plastic fermenters in San Diego County are made of "food grade" plastic.
Lum

"mail box" wrote in message
...
On 7/26/2006 11:29 PM, Charles E wrote:
[snipped]

However, as I mentioned in a prior post, most of
us probably conduct primary fermentations in open-top plastic
containers that are not FDA approved plastic. In my mind, if those
containers under primary fermentation conditions don't contribute
off-tastes and aromas, I doubt the relatively small plastic ball
surface to wine surface ratio in secondary fermentation vessels would
contribute a percievable off taste or aroma.
Charles,

I'm not sure what "FDA approved plastic" is, but I'd wager that most
home winemakers who use a plastic primary ensure that it is of food
grade quality. I know that I do, as the additional cost for a food
grade primary fermenter is quite trivial compared to the cost of the
ingredients being fermented in it, and of course there is no price tag
for the health of the consumers of the wine.


Cheers,
Ken

wow. dang. good to know. thanks, Droopy!

DAve

Droopy wrote:
"Food grade" just means that there should be a minimal amount of
plasticizers and unreacted momomers left after polymerization. that
stuff is not benign.....but at the levels found in plastic is it not
acutely toxic either. One concern is that those chemicals are often
carcinogenic, and there are often chronic effects associated with them.


While a trash can you have used 40 times already should not be a great
concern, there could be some chemical release the first few times you
use it.......and when talking about things that you use a lot of like
"tupperware" containers you definately want them to be made of food
grade plastic.


Dave Allison wrote:
ya can only hope they were NEW plastic trash-cans. :*)

I have made many a peach brandy just in NEW plastic trash-cans, scrubbed
and sprayed down with "no rinse". Nothing ever came of it, but good brandy.

For wine making, I've stayed with primaries from wine kits and wine
stores, guess I'm cautious in my old age. :*)

DAve

Lum Eisenman wrote:
Each year, I test several dozen wines made by home winemakers. Most use
plastic trash-cans as fermenters. I have not kept score, but I am sure very
few plastic fermenters in San Diego County are made of "food grade" plastic.
Lum

"mail box" wrote in message
...
On 7/26/2006 11:29 PM, Charles E wrote:
[snipped]

However, as I mentioned in a prior post, most of
us probably conduct primary fermentations in open-top plastic
containers that are not FDA approved plastic. In my mind, if those
containers under primary fermentation conditions don't contribute
off-tastes and aromas, I doubt the relatively small plastic ball
surface to wine surface ratio in secondary fermentation vessels would
contribute a percievable off taste or aroma.
Charles,

I'm not sure what "FDA approved plastic" is, but I'd wager that most
home winemakers who use a plastic primary ensure that it is of food
grade quality. I know that I do, as the additional cost for a food
grade primary fermenter is quite trivial compared to the cost of the
ingredients being fermented in it, and of course there is no price tag
for the health of the consumers of the wine.


Cheers,
Ken

On 7/30/2006 6:39 PM, Lum Eisenman wrote:
Each year, I test several dozen wines made by home winemakers. Most use
plastic trash-cans as fermenters. I have not kept score, but I am sure very
few plastic fermenters in San Diego County are made of "food grade" plastic.
Lum

My father-in-law and his cronies make about 250 gallons of the exact
same wine each year. Their primary fermenters are second-hand olive oil
barrels, which are food grade. These cost them a bit more than a new
plastic trash can would have, but not by a huge margin. This is in NJ
rather than CA, but even these very 'old school' gentlemen have a
healthy desire to keep their product safe for the consumers. After all,
the consumers are primarily themselves and their families!
Lum, I bow to your greater experience, as my experience is limited to my
father-in-law's group and my own vastly lower volume production plus
that of several of my friends. We all use only food grade fermenters,
but this sample size is very small. I would be very interested to see
the results of an informal poll of amateur wine makers over a much
larger sample size, to see what the trend is vis-a-vis food grade or
non-food grade fermenters.


Cheers,
Ken