Happens every year. I made some Pinot Gris from juice this year.
Pretty good so far. A few weeks ago, I fined with agglomerated
bentonite at 0.5 grams per liter (hydrated for a couple of weeks!). I
added kieselsohl at 1.4 ml/L immediately following. After a couple of
weeks, it was still cloudy so I added 1 ml/L isinglass. Still cloudy a
week later with no hint it is going to clear. What else can I do? I
know Tom S. says do bench testing, I don't have thousands of liters to
bench test, I have to just do it. What do I do now?

Dan Emerson

Dan,
That's not a heavy dose of bentonite, maybe try some more or use
Sparkalloid. Trials don't require mush of a sample, I use 1/2 sized
bottles. It may not be a protein haze either.

Here are two references you might find useful.

http://listproc.ucdavis.edu/archives...5/02-Exp_3.doc

http://www.fst.vt.edu/extension/enol...entonite01.pdf

Joe
wrote:
Happens every year. I made some Pinot Gris from juice this year.
Pretty good so far. A few weeks ago, I fined with agglomerated
bentonite at 0.5 grams per liter (hydrated for a couple of weeks!). I
added kieselsohl at 1.4 ml/L immediately following. After a couple of
weeks, it was still cloudy so I added 1 ml/L isinglass. Still cloudy a
week later with no hint it is going to clear. What else can I do? I
know Tom S. says do bench testing, I don't have thousands of liters to
bench test, I have to just do it. What do I do now?

Dan Emerson

Is the CO2 still left in solution? Do you have MLF going on? My pinot
was cloudy while MLF was going on, but then cleared slightly.

There's always sterile filtering available...

wrote:
Happens every year. I made some Pinot Gris from juice this year.
Pretty good so far. A few weeks ago, I fined with agglomerated
bentonite at 0.5 grams per liter (hydrated for a couple of weeks!). I
added kieselsohl at 1.4 ml/L immediately following. After a couple of
weeks, it was still cloudy so I added 1 ml/L isinglass. Still cloudy a
week later with no hint it is going to clear. What else can I do? I
know Tom S. says do bench testing, I don't have thousands of liters to
bench test, I have to just do it. What do I do now?

Dan Emerson

Personally I find that kieselsol and gelatin work beautifully every
time.

wrote:
Happens every year. I made some Pinot Gris from juice this year.
Pretty good so far. A few weeks ago, I fined with agglomerated
bentonite at 0.5 grams per liter (hydrated for a couple of weeks!). I
added kieselsohl at 1.4 ml/L immediately following. After a couple of
weeks, it was still cloudy so I added 1 ml/L isinglass. Still cloudy a
week later with no hint it is going to clear. What else can I do? I
know Tom S. says do bench testing, I don't have thousands of liters to
bench test, I have to just do it. What do I do now?

Dan Emerson

Dan, I used bentonite soley this year on Okanagan Pinot Gris without
any trouble. A couple of things I know of that affect negatively
charged fining agents, like bentonite, are temperature and pH. Low
temperature and high pH hinder the ability of bentonite to attract and
strip protein from the wine.

Perhaps folks more knowledgable than I would care to comment on these
relationships...

I used SIHA3 yeast and a cold ferment (12 degrees C) on juice that had
a corrected pH of 3.39. At first racking in November, I used 1g/L
bentonite (vitaben). I wouldn't typically use that much bentonite, but
thought it necessary as my cellar temperature was only about 10C when I
racked.

Another technique that aids in producing clear wine is to clarify the
juice for 24 hours before inducing ferementation. For instance, after
pressing, the juice is immediately cooled and left to sit overnight.
By racking the next morning, you eliminate a lot of the larger
particles. You have to be careful not to over-clarify as this also
reduces the nutrients that your yeast will require. I always use
Superfood or an equivalent DAP/vitamin mixture to ensure a clean
ferment.

Darin

Darin wrote:
wrote:
Happens every year. I made some Pinot Gris from juice this year.
Pretty good so far. A few weeks ago, I fined with agglomerated
bentonite at 0.5 grams per liter (hydrated for a couple of weeks!). I
added kieselsohl at 1.4 ml/L immediately following. After a couple of
weeks, it was still cloudy so I added 1 ml/L isinglass. Still cloudy a
week later with no hint it is going to clear. What else can I do? I
know Tom S. says do bench testing, I don't have thousands of liters to
bench test, I have to just do it. What do I do now?

Dan Emerson

Dan, I used bentonite soley this year on Okanagan Pinot Gris without
any trouble. A couple of things I know of that affect negatively
charged fining agents, like bentonite, are temperature and pH. Low
temperature and high pH hinder the ability of bentonite to attract and
strip protein from the wine.

Perhaps folks more knowledgable than I would care to comment on these
relationships...

I used SIHA3 yeast and a cold ferment (12 degrees C) on juice that had
a corrected pH of 3.39. At first racking in November, I used 1g/L
bentonite (vitaben). I wouldn't typically use that much bentonite, but
thought it necessary as my cellar temperature was only about 10C when I
racked.

Another technique that aids in producing clear wine is to clarify the
juice for 24 hours before inducing ferementation. For instance, after
pressing, the juice is immediately cooled and left to sit overnight.
By racking the next morning, you eliminate a lot of the larger
particles. You have to be careful not to over-clarify as this also
reduces the nutrients that your yeast will require. I always use
Superfood or an equivalent DAP/vitamin mixture to ensure a clean
ferment.

Darin

That's a lot of bentonite! I usually use around 2 tsp/ 6 gals, and this
dose completely clarified a Gewurz that was cold fermented, had some
residual sugar left and was sitting outside on the balcony for the
whole fining period at around 4C. Your mileage might vary but it's
better to start on the low side with the fining agent and add more
later if necessary that add too much in the beginning. Or run trials to
take the guesing out of the picture.

Pp

pp wrote:
Darin wrote:
wrote:
Happens every year. I made some Pinot Gris from juice this year.
Pretty good so far. A few weeks ago, I fined with agglomerated
bentonite at 0.5 grams per liter (hydrated for a couple of weeks!). I
added kieselsohl at 1.4 ml/L immediately following. After a couple of
weeks, it was still cloudy so I added 1 ml/L isinglass. Still cloudy a
week later with no hint it is going to clear. What else can I do? I
know Tom S. says do bench testing, I don't have thousands of liters to
bench test, I have to just do it. What do I do now?

Dan Emerson

Dan, I used bentonite soley this year on Okanagan Pinot Gris without
any trouble. A couple of things I know of that affect negatively
charged fining agents, like bentonite, are temperature and pH. Low
temperature and high pH hinder the ability of bentonite to attract and
strip protein from the wine.

Perhaps folks more knowledgable than I would care to comment on these
relationships...

I used SIHA3 yeast and a cold ferment (12 degrees C) on juice that had
a corrected pH of 3.39. At first racking in November, I used 1g/L
bentonite (vitaben). I wouldn't typically use that much bentonite, but
thought it necessary as my cellar temperature was only about 10C when I
racked.

Another technique that aids in producing clear wine is to clarify the
juice for 24 hours before inducing ferementation. For instance, after
pressing, the juice is immediately cooled and left to sit overnight.
By racking the next morning, you eliminate a lot of the larger
particles. You have to be careful not to over-clarify as this also
reduces the nutrients that your yeast will require. I always use
Superfood or an equivalent DAP/vitamin mixture to ensure a clean
ferment.

Darin

That's a lot of bentonite! I usually use around 2 tsp/ 6 gals, and this
dose completely clarified a Gewurz that was cold fermented, had some
residual sugar left and was sitting outside on the balcony for the
whole fining period at around 4C. Your mileage might vary but it's
better to start on the low side with the fining agent and add more
later if necessary that add too much in the beginning. Or run trials to
take the guesing out of the picture.

Pp
Thanks. Your right of course - it was a high-end dose. I did trials
with 1/2 g/L and 1 g/L at room temperature. 1/2g wasn't sufficient.

My understanding is that over-fining with bentonite can strip flavour
and leave an earthy smell to the wine. Fortunately, that was not the
case for me.

Next year, the trials (and more of them) will be conducted in the
cellar!

Cheers,
Darin

Darin wrote (with respect to 0.5gm/liter bentonite useage) Pp
Thanks. Your right of course - it was a high-end dose. I did trials
with 1/2 g/L and 1 g/L at room temperature. 1/2g wasn't sufficient.

My understanding is that over-fining with bentonite can strip flavour
and leave an earthy smell to the wine. Fortunately, that was not the
case for me.

Darin, Pp and others; I don't think Darin's 0.5gm/liter (about the same as
2 grams/gallon) is over use of bentonite. In the past I've used 2
grams/gallon bentonite on my white wines. This was on the advise of my
mentor ten years ago. The last couple of years I reduced the dose to 0.5
grams/gallon on the advise of a yeast company person. My wines had a chill
haze and I thought it was due to the reserve juice I added to sweeten the
wines (Vidal, Vignoles). Same thing this year on a dry Vidal. So, I
returned the wine to a carboy, added 2 grams/gallon bentonite (hydrated),
waited a couple of weeks to clear and bottled again. Now, the Vidal does
not develop a haze when chilled. Also, I don't notice an earthy smell or
taste. In fact the wine now tastes better (very subjective) than before.

If you have enough wine to do tests of different amounts of fining agents
that's the way to go. But for my normal 5 to 10 gallons of wine there just
is not enough to allow these experiments. Go with what works.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA

William Frazier wrote:
Darin wrote (with respect to 0.5gm/liter bentonite useage) Pp
Thanks. Your right of course - it was a high-end dose. I did trials
with 1/2 g/L and 1 g/L at room temperature. 1/2g wasn't sufficient.

My understanding is that over-fining with bentonite can strip flavour
and leave an earthy smell to the wine. Fortunately, that was not the
case for me.

Darin, Pp and others; I don't think Darin's 0.5gm/liter (about the same as
2 grams/gallon) is over use of bentonite. In the past I've used 2
grams/gallon bentonite on my white wines. This was on the advise of my
mentor ten years ago. The last couple of years I reduced the dose to 0.5
grams/gallon on the advise of a yeast company person. My wines had a chill
haze and I thought it was due to the reserve juice I added to sweeten the
wines (Vidal, Vignoles). Same thing this year on a dry Vidal. So, I
returned the wine to a carboy, added 2 grams/gallon bentonite (hydrated),
waited a couple of weeks to clear and bottled again. Now, the Vidal does
not develop a haze when chilled. Also, I don't notice an earthy smell or
taste. In fact the wine now tastes better (very subjective) than before.

If you have enough wine to do tests of different amounts of fining agents
that's the way to go. But for my normal 5 to 10 gallons of wine there just
is not enough to allow these experiments. Go with what works.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA

Interesting post, Bill - practical experience is always the best judge!
One thing though - it's my understanding that bentonite is used for
"hot stability" and that cold hazes are caused by tartrate instability
instead, so I'm wondering if there is anything more going on in your
examples. But again - if it works well, don't mess with it - that's my
motto.

Pp

Pp - The haze I encountered is just like the haze that shows up in home brew
I make after it's put in the frig. I don't worry about the haze in beer but
I hate it in a white wine. I cold stablize all these wines (red and white)
at about 30F in a chest freezer for two weeks. I have one of those external
thermostats that let the chest freezer temp. be set at any temperature.
This drops a lot of tartartrate and I don't have crystals in the bottled
wine. In the case of my Vidal and Vignoles I presume it's a protein haze.
Bentonite will remove proteins...I just didn't use enough for my grapes.
The mentor I mentioned uses 3 grams/gallon bentonite in his white wines and
also adds bentonite to red wines following yeast fermentation. He believes
it improves flavor and softens the wine. His white wines are the best I've
tasted here in the Kansas City area. We are dealing mostly with high acid
wines out here in Kansas so anything that can soften the wine is helpful.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA

"pp" wrote in message
ups.com...

Interesting post, Bill - practical experience is always the best judge!
One thing though - it's my understanding that bentonite is used for
"hot stability" and that cold hazes are caused by tartrate instability
instead, so I'm wondering if there is anything more going on in your
examples. But again - if it works well, don't mess with it - that's my
motto.

Pp