Hello everybody, beer brewer here moving into wines. My first attempt
went wrong, getting infected with a thick, mucus-like membrane on top
of the must. If this were a batch of beer I'd diagnose it as
brettanomyces, but my experience with wine is zero so I'll leave that
to the more experienced...

My sanitation procedure for the carboy was iodophor and drip drying.
This is a carryover habit from beer brewing, and I've read several
places that iodophor is not the ideal sanitizer for winemaking, so I
realize this may have been a mistake.

I used a large can of elderberry concentrate, with 4 gallons of water.
I added four crushed Campden tablets to the must. I think I crushed
them wrong. There were a few medium-sized, intact chunks which went
into the must along with the powder. The next morning I saw some of
those chunks floating on the surface of the must, apparently buoyed up
by the SO2 bubbles clinging to them. I suspect the must didn't receive
an adequate dose of SO2. That evening (24 hours later) I added a dry
cuvee yeast. Even at that time, things were not looking good, with a
weird film on the surface of the must.

It's now three days later, still no obvious yeast activity and the
surface is looking even scarier now. I'm pretty sure I've failed with
this attempt.

I know that I've done several things wrong here -- I am hoping some
more experienced people can put these mistakes in priority order for
me. I want to give this another shot next week and hope I can do it
right.

Thanks,
Scott

A general outline for making wine would be this:

Clean/sanitize equipment
make must (fruit+sugar+acidity+enzymes and chemicals if needed)
Add sulfite
wait 24 hours
pitch yeast

the sulfite is toxic to microorganisms. It damages DNA polymerase
enzymes so the microbes cannot reporduce (the first step in microbial
reproduction is to make a copy of all its DNA using the polymerase).

So you have this must which is going to have some microbes in it. You
treat it with the sulftite which will prevent existing microbes from
reproducing (until they can make more polymerase). You then after
waiting enough time so that a lot of the sulfite disperses (the 24
hours) you put the yeast that you want fermenting the must in.

So it seems you did all that right. Why you have whatever growing in
it that you do I cannot say for sure. first, did you take a SG
reading? One can of concentrate to 4 galons of water seems really
thin. You should have an SG of 1.095-1.110 or so for most wines.
Think about with brewing. If you take a can of LME and add it to 4
gallons of water you would get a OG of
around 1.027 only. I do not know how big that can of concentrate was,
but if it was as thick as honey like the LME (which I suspect it was
not) it would have to weigh around 11 lbs. (I think the #10 cans weight
around 6 lbs or so) I am thinking that you would have needed a sugar
addition of around 1.5-2 lbs a gallon to go with the concentrate. You
might not be seeing any activity becasue there just is not much sugar
there to ferment.

I also did not see a mention of yeast nutrient. Yeast have a fairly
high nitrogen requirement. In beer that all comes from the malt and
you never have to worry about it (even in highly adjuncted lagers).
Almost all fruit wines need a nutrient addition of some sort, usually
around 1 tsp/gallon.

You should buy a acid titration kit and learn to titrate TA. Wine and
wine musts need to have a pH below 4 to prevent spoilage. You usually
get that pH by having a TA (titratable acidity)of 0.5-0.8% (although
you can have a high TA and high pH, but these values are a good
indication of sufficent acidity). Most fruit wine recipies call for
adding aroudn 1 tsp of acid blend or its equilivant (lemon juice or
grape concentrate) per gallon.

As far as your sulfite problem, I suggest you use potassium
metabisulfite. It is a powder and easier to handle than campden
tablets.




Scott L wrote:
Hello everybody, beer brewer here moving into wines. My first attempt
went wrong, getting infected with a thick, mucus-like membrane on top
of the must. If this were a batch of beer I'd diagnose it as
brettanomyces, but my experience with wine is zero so I'll leave that
to the more experienced...

My sanitation procedure for the carboy was iodophor and drip drying.
This is a carryover habit from beer brewing, and I've read several
places that iodophor is not the ideal sanitizer for winemaking, so I
realize this may have been a mistake.

I used a large can of elderberry concentrate, with 4 gallons of water.
I added four crushed Campden tablets to the must. I think I crushed
them wrong. There were a few medium-sized, intact chunks which went
into the must along with the powder. The next morning I saw some of
those chunks floating on the surface of the must, apparently buoyed up
by the SO2 bubbles clinging to them. I suspect the must didn't receive
an adequate dose of SO2. That evening (24 hours later) I added a dry
cuvee yeast. Even at that time, things were not looking good, with a
weird film on the surface of the must.

It's now three days later, still no obvious yeast activity and the
surface is looking even scarier now. I'm pretty sure I've failed with
this attempt.

I know that I've done several things wrong here -- I am hoping some
more experienced people can put these mistakes in priority order for
me. I want to give this another shot next week and hope I can do it
right.

Thanks,
Scott

"Scott L" wrote in message
ups.com...
Hello everybody, beer brewer here moving into wines. My first attempt
went wrong, getting infected with a thick, mucus-like membrane on top
of the must. If this were a batch of beer I'd diagnose it as
brettanomyces, but my experience with wine is zero so I'll leave that
to the more experienced...

My sanitation procedure for the carboy was iodophor and drip drying.
This is a carryover habit from beer brewing, and I've read several
places that iodophor is not the ideal sanitizer for winemaking, so I
realize this may have been a mistake.

I used a large can of elderberry concentrate, with 4 gallons of water.
I added four crushed Campden tablets to the must. I think I crushed
them wrong. There were a few medium-sized, intact chunks which went
into the must along with the powder. The next morning I saw some of
those chunks floating on the surface of the must, apparently buoyed up
by the SO2 bubbles clinging to them. I suspect the must didn't receive
an adequate dose of SO2. That evening (24 hours later) I added a dry
cuvee yeast. Even at that time, things were not looking good, with a
weird film on the surface of the must.

You may have done nothing wrong at all. I've heard that elderberry leaves a
nasty scum behind in fermenters and maybe that's what you're seeing.

How about an assist from one of you experienced country winemakers? I can't
really speak authoratatively on this topic.

Tom S
www.chateauburbank.com

Scott:

I can't comment on the rest, but I use iodophor all the time for wine
making.

Steve

Droopy wrote:
So it seems you did all that right. Why you have whatever growing in
it that you do I cannot say for sure. first, did you take a SG
reading? One can of concentrate to 4 galons of water seems really
thin. You should have an SG of 1.095-1.110 or so for most wines.

It was a very large can. The back of the can stated that it could be
used for a 5 gallon wine or a 3 gallon wine, the 3 gallon obviously
being of higher gravity. I didn't take a gravity reading, but I did use
the can as was indicated on the label and, well, it was just a very
large can :-)

The instructions said 5 tablets for the 5 gallon version, 3 for the 3
gallon. I decided to go for 4 gallons, so I used 4 tablets. I assume
that was a proper thing to do...

Scott

Yep, campden tablets are 1 per gallon.

I do find it hard to beleive that a can of concentrate would make
either 3 or 5 gallons with no other adjustment. I am assuming that it
is vinters harvest or oregon fruit products?

Here is a link to a more or less typical recipe that uses a 6 lb can of
vinters harvest elderberry concentrate:

http://www.homebrewheaven.com/elderb...-wine-base.htm

as you can see they add sugar, acid blend, pectic enzyme (aids in
extraction and helps prevent haze) and nutrient before fermentation.

If that is the case for you, there is good news. You can add the
sugar, nutrient and acid and still end up with a good wine. Having a
bit of other microbial activity in a wine must is not always a bad
thing. Some winemakers actually like a bit of brett character in their
wines for instance. Assuming that you were low on the SG, there was
not a great deal of fermentables that they could have gotten to.

I would rack off of whatever is growing on the top (if possible), add
the sugar and other additives and pitch several packets of yeast to
really get it going. I do not think you have a major contamination
issue, since you did add some sulfite to it. the amount of money you
will spend to adjust it is not all that great and it is alway worth a
try to save it.

I had a mulberry wine spontaneously ferment on me this year and it may
be the best one I have ever made.
wrote:
Droopy wrote:
So it seems you did all that right. Why you have whatever growing in
it that you do I cannot say for sure. first, did you take a SG
reading? One can of concentrate to 4 galons of water seems really
thin. You should have an SG of 1.095-1.110 or so for most wines.

It was a very large can. The back of the can stated that it could be
used for a 5 gallon wine or a 3 gallon wine, the 3 gallon obviously
being of higher gravity. I didn't take a gravity reading, but I did use
the can as was indicated on the label and, well, it was just a very
large can :-)

The instructions said 5 tablets for the 5 gallon version, 3 for the 3
gallon. I decided to go for 4 gallons, so I used 4 tablets. I assume
that was a proper thing to do...

Scott

Steve wrote:
Scott:

I can't comment on the rest, but I use iodophor all the time for wine
making.

Steve

I don't think anyone suggests that Idophor is an ineffective sanitizer
for wine making equipment, only that the residue can cause some issues.

Andy

Droopy wrote:
If that is the case for you, there is good news. You can add the
sugar, nutrient and acid and still end up with a good wine. Having a
bit of other microbial activity in a wine must is not always a bad
thing. Some winemakers actually like a bit of brett character in their
wines for instance. Assuming that you were low on the SG, there was
not a great deal of fermentables that they could have gotten to.

Thanks for the advice. At this point I can't even remember if I added
the sugar or not. I bought it but probably forgot to add it. If I find
the bag full when I get home, I'll know the truth. Ladies, gentlemen,
this is what happens when you try to brew a batch of beer and make a
wine on the same evening!

I'll hit the LHBS after work, pick up some more yeast, and try to
salvage this.

Scott

you may have done nothing wrong at all. I've heard that elderberry leaves a
nasty scum behind in ferments and maybe that's what you're seeing.

How about an assist from one of you experienced country winemakers? I can't
really speak authoritatively on this topic.

I've not made more that 10 or 15 country wines so this is just a best
guess. Others have said Idophor is probably not an issue with wine in
general when used in correct ratio's and it makes sense so I doubt
sanitation is an issue. I wouldn't be concerned about the sulfite
level at this point either but would suggest you throw away those
campden tablets and get some potassium metabisulfite powder, it's a
whole lot easier to use. You needed a jackhammer to crush the campden
I had when I started making wine.

As to sanitation, with grapes there is a term for everything else that
gets fermented, MOG. Material Other than Grapes includes dirt, bees,
spiders, webs, you name it. The pH of musts in general protects the
must, a lot of really nasty stuff can go into the fermenter and it
still comes out wine. With that said, I would agree that the wine is
not lost. If the scum looks or smells like mold I would be concerned
but other than that I would not consider it a big deal yet. If it
scared me I would remove it by racking or overflow if that is possible.

You already have good comments on nutrient deficiency, that's pretty
common in country wines. I always add nutrient, there are many brands
so just use what your supply house handles. I like Yeastex and Fermaid
and do use DAP when I think it's called for.

I haven't seen much said about fermentation temperature. That could be
a big deal. At least when getting it started you may want to get the
must up to 70F or so. Country wines in general take more care and
feeding than grape wines, they emulate meads in that respect. If the
must is cold, move it or get a cheap heating pad from the drug store
that has a normal three stage switch, no timer. They are getting
harder to find.

Joe