I've been making wine for awhile now and there's one issue that always
stumps me: when to de-gas. Fairly often I end up with good wine that
has a slight fizz.

I always ferment to complete dryness, put the red wines through an MLF
at a farily high temp of about 78-80 degrees, then when that's
completely done, I chill the carboys at 55 degrees for at least a year
for bottling. If the season is right, I'll also leave the carboys in a
garage for a few weeks at about 20-30 degrees. Bottling usually is the
summer after the cold stabilitzation.

It's always possible that the fizz is from an incomplete primary or
secondary fermentation, but I suspect that it's just dissolved CO2.
I'm concerned that vigorous stiring just before bottling will result in
oxidation...is this a legitimate concern? At what stage would you beat
the hell out of the wine? Those attachments that fit on an electric
drill work well, but at what point would you do it. My other concern
is whether it's possible to agitate the wine so much right before
bottling that I might significantly change the dissolved sulfite
levels.

Also, would it be worthwhile to bottle at a higher temperature. I
usually just take the carboys out of storage, allow them to come up to
about 65 degrees, then bottle. But I could just as easily warm them up
a bit.

Lee

The overly simple answer is never. If you bulk age long enough there will
not be a problem with fuzziness. It will escape on it's own without the
bruising action of degassing. But then there are times when it is useful.
Some of my wines are better very young. In those cases I degas before
bottling.

In your case, however, I wonder if it is an incomplete MLF. Red wine
usually ferments out pretty quick and 6 months bulk aging should be enough
to eliminate the CO2. But you are doing MLF after fermentation. It may
take longer to eliminate the CO2 from it as it will not finish as long. You
may need 6 months after MLF is completely finished. I suspect the problem
would go away if you gave it another 4-6 months.

But then if you really want to put it in bottle at the time you are, then
sounds like you need to degas and before bottling is the time to do it. You
can test to see if it needs degassing. Just put it you a bucket and stir it
hard for a few seconds. If it foams, it needs it.

Ray

"Lee" wrote in message
oups.com...
I've been making wine for awhile now and there's one issue that always
stumps me: when to de-gas. Fairly often I end up with good wine that
has a slight fizz.

I always ferment to complete dryness, put the red wines through an MLF
at a farily high temp of about 78-80 degrees, then when that's
completely done, I chill the carboys at 55 degrees for at least a year
for bottling. If the season is right, I'll also leave the carboys in a
garage for a few weeks at about 20-30 degrees. Bottling usually is the
summer after the cold stabilitzation.

It's always possible that the fizz is from an incomplete primary or
secondary fermentation, but I suspect that it's just dissolved CO2.
I'm concerned that vigorous stiring just before bottling will result in
oxidation...is this a legitimate concern? At what stage would you beat
the hell out of the wine? Those attachments that fit on an electric
drill work well, but at what point would you do it. My other concern
is whether it's possible to agitate the wine so much right before
bottling that I might significantly change the dissolved sulfite
levels.

Also, would it be worthwhile to bottle at a higher temperature. I
usually just take the carboys out of storage, allow them to come up to
about 65 degrees, then bottle. But I could just as easily warm them up
a bit.

Lee

I always ferment to complete dryness, put the red wines through an MLF
at a farily high temp of about 78-80 degrees, then when that's
completely done, I chill the carboys at 55 degrees for at least a year
for bottling. If the season is right, I'll also leave the carboys in a
garage for a few weeks at about 20-30 degrees. Bottling usually is the
summer after the cold stabilitzation.

Lee,

I've had this problem myself in the past when aging in glass. What is
your racking schedule? It sounds as if you're just leaving it in the
carboy after MLF at 55F. If you've racked 3 times over the course of
the year, this should have allowed much of the CO2 to escape. For a
young red wine a little splashing when you rack is ok - perhaps even
beneficial. The low temp, as you suspect, is also a factor as more gas
can remain dissolved in the wine at lower temps. FWIW I never cold
stabilize my red wines. Over the course of a year or 2 of bulk aging
plenty of tartrate crystals precipitate out at cellar temp. If there's
no hurry to bottle now, rack it allowing the wine to trickle down the
inside wall of the carboy then see where you stand.

Good luck,
RD

I always ferment to complete dryness, put the red wines through an MLF
at a farily high temp of about 78-80 degrees, then when that's
completely done, I chill the carboys at 55 degrees for at least a year
for bottling. If the season is right, I'll also leave the carboys in a
garage for a few weeks at about 20-30 degrees. Bottling usually is the
summer after the cold stabilitzation.

Lee,

I've had this problem myself in the past when aging in glass. What is
your racking schedule? It sounds as if you're just leaving it in the
carboy after MLF at 55F. If you've racked 3 times over the course of
the year, this should have allowed much of the CO2 to escape. For a
young red wine a little splashing when you rack is ok - perhaps even
beneficial. The low temp, as you suspect, is also a factor as more gas
can remain dissolved in the wine at lower temps. FWIW I never cold
stabilize my red wines. Over the course of a year or 2 of bulk aging
plenty of tartrate crystals precipitate out at cellar temp. If there's
no hurry to bottle now, rack it allowing the wine to trickle down the
inside wall of the carboy then see where you stand.

Good luck,
RD

Somebody on the forum at http://www.winepress.us/forums/index.php just
suggested using a Mightyvac to degass. I've never tried it but may give it a
try one of these days. The Mightyvac is a small hand pump which can be
attached to a carboy allowing you to draw down the pressure in a carboy to
bring the CO2 out of solution. My only concern with this would be the
possibility of breaking the carboy. So if you do it, don't use too much
vacuum.

Jon.

--
Come visit us on the web!
http://www.largescale-trains.com
Home of the JJ&C Railroad

"Lee" wrote in message
oups.com...
I've been making wine for awhile now and there's one issue that always
stumps me: when to de-gas. Fairly often I end up with good wine that
has a slight fizz.

I always ferment to complete dryness, put the red wines through an MLF
at a farily high temp of about 78-80 degrees, then when that's
completely done, I chill the carboys at 55 degrees for at least a year
for bottling. If the season is right, I'll also leave the carboys in a
garage for a few weeks at about 20-30 degrees. Bottling usually is the
summer after the cold stabilitzation.

It's always possible that the fizz is from an incomplete primary or
secondary fermentation, but I suspect that it's just dissolved CO2.
I'm concerned that vigorous stiring just before bottling will result in
oxidation...is this a legitimate concern? At what stage would you beat
the hell out of the wine? Those attachments that fit on an electric
drill work well, but at what point would you do it. My other concern
is whether it's possible to agitate the wine so much right before
bottling that I might significantly change the dissolved sulfite
levels.

Also, would it be worthwhile to bottle at a higher temperature. I
usually just take the carboys out of storage, allow them to come up to
about 65 degrees, then bottle. But I could just as easily warm them up
a bit.

Lee

Carboys have a pretty flat, large bottom, so they're less able to
withstand the forces of applied vacuum than a wine bottle would. I'd
use the least amount of vacuum that does the job. That's probably in the
range of 3-5 inches of water column (i.e. 9/10 to 4/5 of an atmosphere).

My $30 hand-pump automobile vacuum system diagnostics vac pump does the
job. I pump until I see some bubbles start coming out of the wine, then
hold the vacuum there an hour or so. Venting back to 1 atmosphere with
filtered room air completes the task.

Gene

Jon Foster wrote:
Somebody on the forum at http://www.winepress.us/forums/index.php just
suggested using a Mightyvac to degass. I've never tried it but may give it a
try one of these days. The Mightyvac is a small hand pump which can be
attached to a carboy allowing you to draw down the pressure in a carboy to
bring the CO2 out of solution. My only concern with this would be the
possibility of breaking the carboy. So if you do it, don't use too much
vacuum.

Jon.

Gene,
I think your units are off; 3-5 inches of water column is next to
nothing pressure wise; 9/10 of an atmosphere is either 1.5 PSIG of 13.5
PSIG depending on which way you are talking. An easy rule of thumb for
vacuum is that atmosphere is 14.7 PSIA or twice that in inches of Hg
(close to 30) or... 50 times that for mm Hg. I think the real values
are 14.696 PSIG, 29.92" Hg and 760 mm Hg but that is from memory.

Not that this has anything to do with degassing, I'm just saying 5 " WC
is very little vacuum applied.

I took a carboy to 25" Hg but had limited success degassing it this
way, it seemed to alway give up a bit more if I would shake the carboy
so I assumed my precess was just faulty.

Joe

Joe

Joe Sallustio wrote:

Gene,
I think your units are off; 3-5 inches of water column is next to
nothing pressure wise; 9/10 of an atmosphere is either 1.5 PSIG of 13.5
PSIG depending on which way you are talking. An easy rule of thumb for
vacuum is that atmosphere is 14.7 PSIA or twice that in inches of Hg
(close to 30) or... 50 times that for mm Hg. I think the real values
are 14.696 PSIG, 29.92" Hg and 760 mm Hg but that is from memory.

Not that this has anything to do with degassing, I'm just saying 5 " WC
is very little vacuum applied.

I took a carboy to 25" Hg but had limited success degassing it this
way, it seemed to alway give up a bit more if I would shake the carboy
so I assumed my precess was just faulty.

Joe

Joe

You are so right, Joe... I'm thinking inches Hg and speaking inches
water. 1 ATM vacuum is 407 inches water column, so getting 0.9 ATM
pressure is 366 inches water column; requires pulling 0.1 ATM vacuum =
41 inches water column vacuum. Sorry 'bout that all. Guess i wuz
sipping too much sherry when I wrote my earlier reply.

Interesting YMMV observation, Joe. I've been able to degas at 5" Hg
vacuum (i.e. 0.84 ATM); I reckon it works best on a wine that isn't
clarified. Those particles act as great bubble nucleation sites. I like
your 'shake the carboy for more' tool. Tells me that initiating bubble
formation is the 'limiting step' in your experience, an 'activation
energy' so to speak. Somehow it hasn't been so for me so far. I'll
try putting my vibrating massage pad under the carboy next time and see
how much it speeds up the process. Hope it doesn't bruise my wine too
bad lol.

Gene

I've always been tempted to sulfite/clean/bake out at 500F some sand
and pour that into a carboy. Those many nucleation sites should cause
an immediate explosion of gas (which means really slow addition)... and
if it were clean sand there should be no impact in taste.

I saw something rather funny about mento's being used to release all
the gas from a diet pepsi. Interesting...

wrote:

I've always been tempted to sulfite/clean/bake out at 500F some sand
and pour that into a carboy. Those many nucleation sites should cause
an immediate explosion of gas (which means really slow addition)... and
if it were clean sand there should be no impact in taste.

I saw something rather funny about mento's being used to release all
the gas from a diet pepsi. Interesting...

If you are baking at 500F, do you really think sulfiting is going to be
needed? Nothing organic can survive at that temperature LOLOL.

I can picture the sand shifting during the next racking, stirring up
some settled sediment. Hmmmmmmm...

wrote in message
oups.com...
I've always been tempted to sulfite/clean/bake out at 500F some sand
and pour that into a carboy. Those many nucleation sites should cause
an immediate explosion of gas (which means really slow addition)... and
if it were clean sand there should be no impact in taste.

I saw something rather funny about mento's being used to release all
the gas from a diet pepsi. Interesting...

Two things come to mind. First, sand will have a porosity of about 30 to
33%. Therefore, you will loose that much wine in the sand where you cannot
rack it. Second, you need really pure sand. Glass quality sand. Most sand
is a conglomerate of many types of ground up rock. Even if you get all
organic mater out, some of that rock will probably be soluble in an acidic
solution like wine.

Ray

I was rigging up a magnehelic to my furnace to tell me when to replace
the filter when you posted so was already thinking in inches of water;
no on seems to think in those units much anymore. I used to do a lot of
pressure conversions and said one thing and meant another all the time,
it can make for a really bad day. )

I bought a magnetic stirrer and was thinking about giving that a shot
for degassing. The problem with that is carboy bases are always sloped
so it's probably tough to get the stirrer centered. I'm going to try
it on a white first, I have to rig up a base to hold the carboy, the
stirrer is a lot smaller than a 5 gallon carboy. If anyone thinks it's
crazy let me know...


Joe

"Joe Sallustio" wrote in message
oups.com...
I bought a magnetic stirrer and was thinking about giving that a shot
for degassing. The problem with that is carboy bases are always sloped
so it's probably tough to get the stirrer centered. I'm going to try
it on a white first, I have to rig up a base to hold the carboy, the
stirrer is a lot smaller than a 5 gallon carboy. If anyone thinks it's
crazy let me know...

Sounds reasonable to me, but I'd opt for a plastic jug for the duration of
this operation. They're thinner, so you'd get better magnetic coupling.
They're also lighter, so you wouldn't necessarily need any fancy holding
fixture. Center the stirrer in the bottom of a bottle crate, lower the full
bottle and stirrer onto it (gently) turn on the motor and you're in bidnezz.

Tom S
www.chateauburbank.com

Sounds perfect Tom, now I have to grab another one of those plastic
carboys. I gave all of mine away... They have a fltter bottom too.

Joe