What exactly does this do it a wine? I saw one post that said a "Yeasty
flavor". I didn't think you wanted that?

Not a yeasty flavor per se. More like a fuller mouthfeel and a toasty
flavor or a bready flavor.

"Marty Phee" wrote in message
. net...
What exactly does this do it a wine? I saw one post that said a "Yeasty
flavor". I didn't think you wanted that?

The French describe the effect as the lees "feeding the wine". That's not
very technical, I know, but it's possibly more useful to describe it in
terms of its effect than to delve into geek-speak.

The overall effect is to improve the mouth feel of the wine, softening and
broadening the palate and making the wine taste richer and fuller. It also
improves the nose, lending a bit of bread dough aroma that is very
pleasant - particularly in full ML white wines.

OTOH, if you're making a flowery, fruity style wine you might find that sur
lie isn't appropriate for that. It's a stylistic choice, and that's one of
the things that makes winemaking interesting. There are so many
combinations...

Tom S
www.chateauburbank.com

Is it Sur Lies or Sur Lees? I've seen both.


Tom S wrote:
"Marty Phee" wrote in message
. net...
What exactly does this do it a wine? I saw one post that said a "Yeasty
flavor". I didn't think you wanted that?

The French describe the effect as the lees "feeding the wine". That's not
very technical, I know, but it's possibly more useful to describe it in
terms of its effect than to delve into geek-speak.

sur lies it is french for "on the lees"

Tom S wrote "The overall effect is to improve the mouth feel of the wine,
softening and broadening the palate and making the wine taste richer and
fuller. It also improves the nose, lending a bit of bread dough aroma that
is very
pleasant - particularly in full ML white wines."

Tom, I know you barrel ferment Chardonnay. Do you leave the wine on the
gross lees in the barrels until you rack and fill or age in another
container or do you rack off the gross lees before barrel aging? Thanks.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA

"William Frazier" wrote in message
...
Tom, I know you barrel ferment Chardonnay. Do you leave the wine on the
gross lees in the barrels until you rack and fill or age in another
container or do you rack off the gross lees before barrel aging?

Hi, Bill -

The wine stays on all its lees without racking until it's time to get it
ready for bottling. Typically that's about ten months. I stir the lees
about once a month.

Tom S
www.chateauburbank.com

If I go to the store will a Chardonnay say if it's been done with sur lies?

I'm interested to see what this tastes like. Next week I'm going to
start a Brehm Chardonnay.


Tom S wrote:
"William Frazier" wrote in message
...
Tom, I know you barrel ferment Chardonnay. Do you leave the wine on the
gross lees in the barrels until you rack and fill or age in another
container or do you rack off the gross lees before barrel aging?

Hi, Bill -

The wine stays on all its lees without racking until it's time to get it
ready for bottling. Typically that's about ten months. I stir the lees
about once a month.

Tom S
www.chateauburbank.com

Some do and some do not tell you if they were sur lie aged.

In addition some go through MLF and some do not, which they may or may
not tell you about further complicating the flavor.

Also, some are oak aged and some are not, which again they may or may
not tell you about.

There is quite a bit of variation in the world of chardonnay.

If you really want to know each will affect the wine, you could get a
chardonnay kit, allow one gallon to go through MLF, sur lie and oak;
another MLF and sur lie aging, another only sur lie, another only MLF,
and another only oak. The last gallon you could leave untouched.

Of course there are variations that we did not cover (sur lie/oak and
malolactic/oak), but unfortunately, kits do not come in 8 gallons.

"Marty Phee" wrote in message
. net...
If I go to the store will a Chardonnay say if it's been done with sur
lies?

I'm interested to see what this tastes like. Next week I'm going to start
a Brehm Chardonnay.

Sometimes it'll say on the label; sometimes on the winery's website.

Many years ago when I first started doing sur lie on my Chardonnay it was
rather uncommon and considered risky. Most Chardonnay was cold tank
fermented and racked from the lees into barrels for aging. There's still a
lot of that nowadays, but it's mostly the big bulk producers. The boutique
producers very often do sur lie aging.

Your Brehm Chardonnay should be a good candidate for sur lie - even if
you're doing it in a carboy rather than a barrel. The most important things
a (1) Get the juice well settled - as clear as possible - before
fermentation. BTW, prior to fermentation is the time to dump in wood chips
if you're oaking your wine. You can leave them in through the sur lie aging
process. (2) Use yeast nutrient and vitamin additions, spaced over the
course of the fermentation. Chardonnay is notoriously nutrient deficient
and that tends to promote H2S problems, as well as stuck fermentations. (3)
Keep a vigilant nose out for signs of H2S formation. (4) When the
fermentation has just about pooped out, stir the bottom every few days to
prevent a reductive condition in the lees during ML. Of those 4 items, the
first and second seem to be the most important.

Certain yeast strains are known to tend to produce H2S, and it's best to
avoid them. Montrachet is a known offender (Although I haven't had H2S
problems with it, I find it far too vigorous for white wine fermentations).
CY3079 is clean, as is VL2 and Epernay II (both low foamers), although I
wouldn't recommend the latter for juice much over 23° Brix because of its
tendency to stick off-dry.

Good luck!

Tom S
www.chateauburbank.com

Droopy wrote:

If you really want to know each will affect the wine, you could get a
chardonnay kit, allow one gallon to go through MLF, sur lie and oak;
another MLF and sur lie aging, another only sur lie, another only MLF,
and another only oak. The last gallon you could leave untouched.

Of course there are variations that we did not cover (sur lie/oak and
malolactic/oak), but unfortunately, kits do not come in 8 gallons.

Good idea with one caveat - kits are not a good source for this
experiment because the manufacturers tweak their acid balance to
contain more malic acid than the juice would normally have. MLF on kits
would then result in a really flabby wine. Get fresh juice instead.

Pp