I added enough tartaric to get the pH down to 3.60 (from 3.80+), but
that leaves me with TA @ 1.11. Just pressed and MLF is still to go,
but if not enough to get the pucker out of the wine, recommendations
for lowering acidity? I fear that post-ML I'll be in a similar
situation with the pH (going back up).

thanks,
Patrick

In this case (pH above 3.5) cold stabilization will most likely RAISE
your pH. So I would suggest NOT doing that.

It might be that you have to just accept that the TA and Ph are not balanced
in this wine. Not every wine is perfect. Adjust acidity to taste and then
if the pH is off, do not plane to age it a long time. Just realize that it
is a wine meant to be drunk young.

Ray

"Patrick" wrote in message
oups.com...
I added enough tartaric to get the pH down to 3.60 (from 3.80+), but
that leaves me with TA @ 1.11. Just pressed and MLF is still to go,
but if not enough to get the pucker out of the wine, recommendations
for lowering acidity? I fear that post-ML I'll be in a similar
situation with the pH (going back up).

thanks,
Patrick

Couldn't one just keep adding tartaric acid until the pH is
acceptable and then chill to drop out the desired amount of acid for
flavor balance?
Warren Place

On Wed, 19 Oct 2005, Ray Calvert wrote:

It might be that you have to just accept that the TA and Ph are not balanced
in this wine. Not every wine is perfect. Adjust acidity to taste and then
if the pH is off, do not plane to age it a long time. Just realize that it
is a wine meant to be drunk young.

Ray

"Patrick" wrote in message
oups.com...
I added enough tartaric to get the pH down to 3.60 (from 3.80+), but
that leaves me with TA @ 1.11. Just pressed and MLF is still to go,
but if not enough to get the pucker out of the wine, recommendations
for lowering acidity? I fear that post-ML I'll be in a similar
situation with the pH (going back up).

thanks,
Patrick

"Warren Place" wrote in message
.edu...
Couldn't one just keep adding tartaric acid until the pH is
acceptable and then chill to drop out the desired amount of acid for
flavor balance?

That's exactly what we do in California when faced with that situation - but
we're talking about grape wines that have high enough levels of potassium to
make that a viable strategy. That's not always the case with other areas
and other types of fruit - or so I'm told.

Tom S

That's what I would do too. Get it at least below 3.55, seed it with
cream of tartar and chill it. It probably is potassium; the tartaric
is already past the 'pucker point' so just keep going. You could
always do a sample and see what happens. Remember to degas, it makes a
difference.

Joe

"Joe Sallustio" wrote in message
oups.com...
That's what I would do too. Get it at least below 3.55, seed it with
cream of tartar and chill it. It probably is potassium; the tartaric
is already past the 'pucker point' so just keep going. You could
always do a sample and see what happens.

One small point: The wine should _first_ be deeply chilled, and _then_
seeded with cream of tartar (if necessary). Seeding only works in
supersaturated solutions. To get to a point of supersaturation the wine
must be chilled.

Tom S

You know that has been bothering me.
They tell you not to use sodium metabisulfite because it will riade th
sodium levels of the wine too much....but if you use potassium
metabisulfite you are just going to dink with your acidity.

Do the big wineries use metabisulfite salts or just treat with SO2 gas?

I use K metabisulfite routinely but I'm not sure it makes a big difference
which form of metabisulfite you use. If you want to add 50 ppm SO2 to 1
gallon of wine you need about 0.329 grams of K metabisulfite or 0.281 grams
Na metabisulfite. Based on the percent K or Na in these chemicals you will
be adding about 116 mg of K or 68 mg Na to 3785 ml of wine. These are very
small amouts.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA

"Droopy" wrote in message
oups.com...
You know that has been bothering me.
They tell you not to use sodium metabisulfite because it will riade th
sodium levels of the wine too much....but if you use potassium
metabisulfite you are just going to dink with your acidity.

Do the big wineries use metabisulfite salts or just treat with SO2 gas?

"Droopy" wrote in message
oups.com...
You know that has been bothering me.
They tell you not to use sodium metabisulfite because it will riade th
sodium levels of the wine too much....but if you use potassium
metabisulfite you are just going to dink with your acidity.

Both sodium and potassium metabisulfite reduce the acidity a little. Over
the course of the winemaking process it is negligible in either case.

Do the big wineries use metabisulfite salts or just treat with SO2 gas?

Depends on the winery. The one I know of (~2 million gallons capacity)
seems to use potassium metabisulfite. I see pallets of 50 pound bags
occasionally as I'm walking around, looking for something else. Still
larger wineries probably use liquid SO2 for cost reasons. Either is
effective.

Tom S

Oops, thanks Tom. I'm not sure how you decide if it needs seeded or
not. I know it's temperature dependent, but if you can get the wine to
25 -30F and have a few weeks are you thinking it's not necessary?
Joe


One small point: The wine should _first_ be deeply chilled, and _then_
seeded with cream of tartar (if necessary). Seeding only works in
supersaturated solutions. To get to a point of supersaturation the wine
must be chilled.

Tom S

"Joe Sallustio" wrote in message
oups.com...
Oops, thanks Tom. I'm not sure how you decide if it needs seeded or
not. I know it's temperature dependent, but if you can get the wine to
25 -30F and have a few weeks are you thinking it's not necessary?

I've never found it necessary to seed wine to get tartrates to precipitate.
In fact, if you're really in a hurry, freezing will drop out tartrates
overnight.

I think commercial wineries seed to get tartrates to precipitate more
quickly than if they let it go spontaneously.

The really big wineries use ion exchange rather than chilling to remove
tartrate.

Tom S

OK, looking at the numbers. Using Bill's numbers for potassium. you
are adding 0.31 g/L of potassium. Now assuming that all the potassium
will react with tartaric acid and precipitate you will precipitate out
1.0X10^-3 moles of tartaric acid. That equates to about 0.1518 grams
of tartaric acid, or about 0.015% TA per 50 ppm of K metabisulfite
added.

So yeah, I guess you could add a lot of metabisulfirte before you chage
the acidity too much.

won't the tartrated acid cause the pH to go back up?

I just purchased a chest freezer so I'll have the ability to chill
(finally).

I'm not a chemist but it depends on the initial pH as i understand it.
Below around 3.55 it goes down, above 3.55 it goes up. It's because
you are pulling potassium out in addition to tartrate.

Joe