Would like to plant

Cabernet Sav.
Sav. Blanc
Gamay
Chard.
Shiraz
Pinot Gris



A vineyard near us, cane prunes Pinot Noir, and cordon trains Cabernet
Sav. That info came along with vigorus varieties to cordon and not
vigorus to canes.

Have not been able to find a reference of what training suits which
variety. Have two books so far, Vines to Wines, and Grape Grower.
Will have more eventually, but any pointers, tips or personal
experiences are appreciated.

Thanks!

Steve - Noobie
Oregon

spud wrote:
Would like to plant

Cabernet Sav.
Sav. Blanc
Gamay
Chard.
Shiraz
Pinot Gris



A vineyard near us, cane prunes Pinot Noir, and cordon trains Cabernet
Sav. That info came along with vigorus varieties to cordon and not
vigorus to canes.

Have not been able to find a reference of what training suits which
variety. Have two books so far, Vines to Wines, and Grape Grower.
Will have more eventually, but any pointers, tips or personal
experiences are appreciated.

Thanks!

Steve - Noobie
Oregon

90% of vinifera grown in the US is now VSP trained. (According to
kentucky vitologist, anywho)

To say cordon pruned vs. cane pruned is incorrect somehow. Cane and spur
prune both use cordons. The cordons are the "arms" off the main trunk
that sport the canes or spurs, unless "head" pruned, which is another
ball of wax entirely....

Vinifera typically want to grow vertically vs. trailing habitat for
american and some french hybrids. Vins with VSP have low cordons with
catch wires to position the shoots that grow up out of the cane/spurs
left after spring pruning (hence, VSP - veritcal shoot positioning).

Here in the midwest where more hybrids and american grapes are grown,
the single wire high cordon system is often used. These also use cordons
(at about 6' high versus 3' high for low cordons), but the cane/spur
shoots are combed downward after grape set to gain sunlight/exposure.

forgive me if i seem too "know it all" just went to a pruning seminar
today and fresh with info presented.

spud wrote:
Would like to plant

Cabernet Sav.
Sav. Blanc
Gamay
Chard.
Shiraz
Pinot Gris



A vineyard near us, cane prunes Pinot Noir, and cordon trains Cabernet
Sav. That info came along with vigorus varieties to cordon and not
vigorus to canes.

Have not been able to find a reference of what training suits which
variety. Have two books so far, Vines to Wines, and Grape Grower.
Will have more eventually, but any pointers, tips or personal
experiences are appreciated.

Thanks!

Steve - Noobie
Oregon

90% of vinifera grown in the US is now VSP trained. (According to
kentucky vitologist, anywho)

To say cordon pruned vs. cane pruned is incorrect somehow. Cane and spur
prune both use cordons. The cordons are the "arms" off the main trunk
that sport the canes or spurs, unless "head" pruned, which is another
ball of wax entirely....

Vinifera typically want to grow vertically vs. trailing habitat for
american and some french hybrids. Vins with VSP have low cordons with
catch wires to position the shoots that grow up out of the cane/spurs
left after spring pruning (hence, VSP - veritcal shoot positioning).

Here in the midwest where more hybrids and american grapes are grown,
the single wire high cordon system is often used. These also use cordons
(at about 6' high versus 3' high for low cordons), but the cane/spur
shoots are combed downward after grape set to gain sunlight/exposure.

forgive me if i seem too "know it all" just went to a pruning seminar
today and fresh with info presented.

Hi Woodwerks!

All right, let me get some terms right then....

What is the generic name for a system that trains a single trunk with
no old-wood horizontal 'arms'? In which the grapes are produced from
a 1 year old cane from the single central trunk retained from last
years growth?

What is the generic name for a system that trains a single trunk to
the low wire of a trellis, then trains two permanent opposing
horizontal 'arms' which are retained year after year? In which grapes
are produced from pruned one year old canes left on the 'arms' at
regular intervals (4" or 6") along the permanent horizontal old wood
arms?

I get the VSP stuff all right, and intend to do that.

And then how can I find which system is 'right' for a given variety?

Thanks Woodwerks, sure appreciate your time!

Take Care
Steve
Oregon



On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 22:08:06 -0600, woodwerks
wrote:

spud wrote:
Would like to plant

Cabernet Sav.
Sav. Blanc
Gamay
Chard.
Shiraz
Pinot Gris



A vineyard near us, cane prunes Pinot Noir, and cordon trains Cabernet
Sav. That info came along with vigorus varieties to cordon and not
vigorus to canes.

Have not been able to find a reference of what training suits which
variety. Have two books so far, Vines to Wines, and Grape Grower.
Will have more eventually, but any pointers, tips or personal
experiences are appreciated.

Thanks!

Steve - Noobie
Oregon

90% of vinifera grown in the US is now VSP trained. (According to
kentucky vitologist, anywho)

To say cordon pruned vs. cane pruned is incorrect somehow. Cane and spur
prune both use cordons. The cordons are the "arms" off the main trunk
that sport the canes or spurs, unless "head" pruned, which is another
ball of wax entirely....

Vinifera typically want to grow vertically vs. trailing habitat for
american and some french hybrids. Vins with VSP have low cordons with
catch wires to position the shoots that grow up out of the cane/spurs
left after spring pruning (hence, VSP - veritcal shoot positioning).

Here in the midwest where more hybrids and american grapes are grown,
the single wire high cordon system is often used. These also use cordons
(at about 6' high versus 3' high for low cordons), but the cane/spur
shoots are combed downward after grape set to gain sunlight/exposure.

forgive me if i seem too "know it all" just went to a pruning seminar
today and fresh with info presented.

Spud Try looking he
http://ssfruit.cas.psu.edu/chapter6/chapter6e.htm
http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/1000/1428.html
"spud" wrote in message
...
Hi Woodwerks!

All right, let me get some terms right then....

What is the generic name for a system that trains a single trunk with
no old-wood horizontal 'arms'? In which the grapes are produced from
a 1 year old cane from the single central trunk retained from last
years growth?

What is the generic name for a system that trains a single trunk to
the low wire of a trellis, then trains two permanent opposing
horizontal 'arms' which are retained year after year? In which grapes
are produced from pruned one year old canes left on the 'arms' at
regular intervals (4" or 6") along the permanent horizontal old wood
arms?

I get the VSP stuff all right, and intend to do that.

And then how can I find which system is 'right' for a given variety?

Thanks Woodwerks, sure appreciate your time!

Take Care
Steve
Oregon



On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 22:08:06 -0600, woodwerks
wrote:

spud wrote:
Would like to plant

Cabernet Sav.
Sav. Blanc
Gamay
Chard.
Shiraz
Pinot Gris



A vineyard near us, cane prunes Pinot Noir, and cordon trains Cabernet
Sav. That info came along with vigorus varieties to cordon and not
vigorus to canes.

Have not been able to find a reference of what training suits which
variety. Have two books so far, Vines to Wines, and Grape Grower.
Will have more eventually, but any pointers, tips or personal
experiences are appreciated.

Thanks!

Steve - Noobie
Oregon

90% of vinifera grown in the US is now VSP trained. (According to
kentucky vitologist, anywho)

To say cordon pruned vs. cane pruned is incorrect somehow. Cane and spur
prune both use cordons. The cordons are the "arms" off the main trunk
that sport the canes or spurs, unless "head" pruned, which is another
ball of wax entirely....

Vinifera typically want to grow vertically vs. trailing habitat for
american and some french hybrids. Vins with VSP have low cordons with
catch wires to position the shoots that grow up out of the cane/spurs
left after spring pruning (hence, VSP - veritcal shoot positioning).

Here in the midwest where more hybrids and american grapes are grown,
the single wire high cordon system is often used. These also use cordons
(at about 6' high versus 3' high for low cordons), but the cane/spur
shoots are combed downward after grape set to gain sunlight/exposure.

forgive me if i seem too "know it all" just went to a pruning seminar
today and fresh with info presented.

spud wrote:

Hi Woodwerks!

All right, let me get some terms right then....

What is the generic name for a system that trains a single trunk with
no old-wood horizontal 'arms'?
In which the grapes are produced from
a 1 year old cane from the single central trunk retained from last
years growth?

Cane Pruned. Generally two canes are left - in some cases more.

It is not really a "System" System is generally used to describe the type of
trellising.


What is the generic name for a system that trains a single trunk to
the low wire of a trellis, then trains two permanent opposing
horizontal 'arms' which are retained year after year? In which grapes
are produced from pruned one year old canes left on the 'arms' at
regular intervals (4" or 6") along the permanent horizontal old wood
arms?

Cordon Spur Pruned

The only terminology correction I would make to what you said is that the
one year old pruned (usually to two buds) "canes" are now called "Spurs",
hence the term cordon spur pruned.


I get the VSP stuff all right, and intend to do that.

And then how can I find which system is 'right' for a given variety?

Thanks Woodwerks, sure appreciate your time!

Take Care
Steve
Oregon

I can not help you here. All the varieties I grow are cordon spur pruned.
There are some varieties, however, in which the first couple buds on a cane
are either not productive or not very productive. These varieties have the
most fruitful buds further out on the cane. You would want to cane prune
these varieties because if you cordon spur pruned them, you would only have
non productive or very low productive buds left after pruning.

I suggest you visit a vineyard near you and ask the winegrower or call your
county agriculture extension agent. Of course, after the first or second
year, (the year in which you establish your cordons), all your vines will
in effect be "cane pruned". Watch and see if there is a difference in
fruitfullness of the buds along the one year old cane. A word of caution,
however, if you leave too much length on a new cordon, you will see severe
terminal dominance and all your energy will go to the ends of the one year
old cane and you will have barren areas in the center.

I have heard that Gamay does best on cane pruned vines. I know Cabernet
Sauv. does well on cordon spur pruned vines as does Chardonnay, Shiraz and
Sauv. Blanc. This does not mean, however that you could not cane prune
some of them and see if there is a difference. Whichever system you use,
choose a trellising system that gives the most sunlight to the buds on the
canes. The fruitfulness for next year is determined by the amount of
sunlight on this years buds.

Hope this helps
Paul

"spud" wrote in message
...
Hi Woodwerks!

All right, let me get some terms right then....

What is the generic name for a system that trains a single trunk with
no old-wood horizontal 'arms'? In which the grapes are produced from
a 1 year old cane from the single central trunk retained from last
years growth?

Head trained, cane pruned.

What is the generic name for a system that trains a single trunk to
the low wire of a trellis, then trains two permanent opposing
horizontal 'arms' which are retained year after year? In which grapes
are produced from pruned one year old canes left on the 'arms' at
regular intervals (4" or 6") along the permanent horizontal old wood
arms?

Cordon trained, spur pruned

I get the VSP stuff all right, and intend to do that.

And then how can I find which system is 'right' for a given variety?

Some varieties do not have fruitful basil buds, so cane pruning is often
used on these grapes. The "right" system depends on the growing conditions
as well as the variety.

Thanks Woodwerks, sure appreciate your time!

Take Care
Steve
Oregon

Thanks Everyone!

My surfing, reading and digging thru the archives of this ng tells me
there is no colleration to training, trellis or pruning systems based
on variety. I find absolutely no list ofsuggested starting points,
recommendations, or consistancy whatsoever.

Well, Jim Cox has some recommendations, page 61 which lists all
possible systems for vinifera based on 'east' or 'west' (not 'north'
or 'south'?) Lombaugh (Growing Grapes) has suggestions in the
descriptions of grape variety, which lacks the varieties I would like
to grow. There is one exception.

Everthing I've heard or read so far says Pinot Noir is finicky, not
vigorous and should be trained/pruned using canes. Since those
characteristics accompany the suggested training/pruning I have no
idea what conclusion I should draw from that. And, since I don't
intend to grow that grape... well it's only so useful.

I was hoping to not reinvent the wheel, but it sounds like that's what
every vine needs! All right then, onward and upward.

Thanks for all the responses folks, I appreciate your thoughts and
time!

Steve - Noobie
Oregon

Noobie,

What you really need to concentrate on right now is your trunk system.
All systems start the same way , with a straight trunk. Don't get to
caught up in the terminology. I would just concentrate on growing 2
canes this year straight up , as far as they can go.Then those canes
that were grown this year can either be kept for trunks next year ( or
maybe just keep 1 depending on your winter conditions) or cut back and
started again next year. After the second year of growth you could bend
them in opposite directions at the fruiting wire to form your first
year of caned pruned vines. All cordons start as caned pruned vines the
first year you start the cordons!

Bob

Forgot to mention something. Canes are very brittle and have a tendency
to break off if "forced" to grow in a certain direction BEFORE bloom.
when your vines begin to grow don't put to much pressure on the canes
to straighten them. They should be fine for the first month and half
without any intervention. It's hard to explain, but my gist is, don't
force the canes shooting up, to the wire until after bloom. Bloom is
when you'll see the little clusters turn into "chia pets" ( actually
they are considered flowers until after bloom) wait until the chia
pets are "not furry" anymore and bloom is over. I usually wait at least
another week before starting to train the canes. Obviously, there are
exceptions but that is basically the rule I use.


Bob

Thanks Bob, appreciate the pointers!

Steve Vegos





On 8 Mar 2005 04:45:03 -0800, wrote:

Forgot to mention something. Canes are very brittle and have a tendency
to break off if "forced" to grow in a certain direction BEFORE bloom.
when your vines begin to grow don't put to much pressure on the canes
to straighten them. They should be fine for the first month and half
without any intervention. It's hard to explain, but my gist is, don't
force the canes shooting up, to the wire until after bloom. Bloom is
when you'll see the little clusters turn into "chia pets" ( actually
they are considered flowers until after bloom) wait until the chia
pets are "not furry" anymore and bloom is over. I usually wait at least
another week before starting to train the canes. Obviously, there are
exceptions but that is basically the rule I use.


Bob