I have some highly concentrated blackberry juice that I will make into wine.
I diluted some juice with water to brix 18. The pH was 3.05 and TA was
1.90%. The blackberry flavor was wonderful, albeit tart. I make mostly
grape wines and a TA this high would result in an undrinkable wine. I
hesitate to add K bicarbonate to lower the acid because I believe
blackberries contain mostly malic acid. For those that make blackberry wine
how would you proceed? Thanks.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA,

"William Frazier" wrote in message
...
I have some highly concentrated blackberry juice that I will make into
wine. I diluted some juice with water to brix 18. The pH was 3.05 and TA
was 1.90%. The blackberry flavor was wonderful, albeit tart. I make
mostly grape wines and a TA this high would result in an undrinkable wine.
I hesitate to add K bicarbonate to lower the acid because I believe
blackberries contain mostly malic acid. For those that make blackberry
wine how would you proceed? Thanks.

Hi, Bill -

I don't make blackberry wine, but if the dominant acid is malic it sounds
like a natural for acid reduction via ML.

Just curious: what was the pH and Brix of the undiluted stuff? Would it be
appropriate for a barrel fermentation? I'd like to see French oak on
blackberry. I'll bet it'd be really nice!

Tom S

Tom S wrote:
"William Frazier" wrote in message
...
I have some highly concentrated blackberry juice that I will make
into
wine. I diluted some juice with water to brix 18. The pH was 3.05
and TA
was 1.90%. The blackberry flavor was wonderful, albeit tart. I
make
mostly grape wines and a TA this high would result in an undrinkable
wine.
I hesitate to add K bicarbonate to lower the acid because I believe
blackberries contain mostly malic acid. For those that make
blackberry
wine how would you proceed? Thanks.

Hi, Bill -

I don't make blackberry wine, but if the dominant acid is malic it
sounds
like a natural for acid reduction via ML.

Just curious: what was the pH and Brix of the undiluted stuff?
Would it be
appropriate for a barrel fermentation? I'd like to see French oak on

blackberry. I'll bet it'd be really nice!

Tom S

Bill,
I take it you'd like a dry wine? If so, I guess I'd do what Tom suggests.
I've made blackberry wine, but I usually sweeten so that seems to balance
the tartness. Also, try to keep the potential alcohol to 11%. My first
blackberry wine came out at 13% alcohol and had a bit of a kick to it, even
aged a bit. My second batch was at 11%, which I think will be an
improvement. Good-luck.
Darlene
Wisconsin

"William Frazier" wrote in message
...
I have some highly concentrated blackberry juice that I will make into
wine. I diluted some juice with water to brix 18. The pH was 3.05 and TA
was 1.90%. The blackberry flavor was wonderful, albeit tart. I make
mostly grape wines and a TA this high would result in an undrinkable wine.
I hesitate to add K bicarbonate to lower the acid because I believe
blackberries contain mostly malic acid. For those that make blackberry
wine how would you proceed? Thanks.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA,

Tom S wrote:

Hi, Bill -

I don't make blackberry wine, but if the dominant acid is malic it sounds
like a natural for acid reduction via ML.

It is very likely that it will undergo a ML on its own and therefore it
might be a good idea to check to make sure ML is complete BEFORE bottling.
I can speak from experience on this

Tom, Dar and Paul - Tom...I couldn't get a brix on the syrup...just too
thick. I did several dilutions and the pH was 3.09 to 3.11 regardless of
concentration. I will have about 4 to 5 gallons of wine so not enough for a
barrel but I may use some French cubes. Dar...I bought the syrup from a
local winery. They make mostly hybrid wines but they do make a terrific
raspberry and blackberry. Both are finished with some white wine and are
sweetened to taste...I would guess 3 to 5% rs. Since the acid is so high I
will do the same. I'm worried about a spontaneous ML fermentation in my
cellar. This always happens. I have been able to stop these unwanted ML
fermentations with Lysozyme. I guess I could let a ML start and keep an eye
on %TA, then stop it at some point. I've never made a high acid, blackberry
before so I was mainly curious if anyone would suggest diluting the juice
until the acid was lower, then add sugar to bring the brix back up. Really
didn't want to do that because the juice diluted to brix 18 tastes really
good. Dar...I think this will make 10% alcohol if it ferments to dryness.
But, I'm using DSM Fermiblanc yeast which is similar to Epernay 2 so it may
pull up a bit short. Time will tell.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA

"Tom S" wrote in message
m...

"William Frazier" wrote in message
...
I have some highly concentrated blackberry juice that I will make into
wine. I diluted some juice with water to brix 18. The pH was 3.05 and TA
was 1.90%. The blackberry flavor was wonderful, albeit tart. I make
mostly grape wines and a TA this high would result in an undrinkable wine.
I hesitate to add K bicarbonate to lower the acid because I believe
blackberries contain mostly malic acid. For those that make blackberry
wine how would you proceed? Thanks.

Hi, Bill -

I don't make blackberry wine, but if the dominant acid is malic it sounds
like a natural for acid reduction via ML.

Just curious: what was the pH and Brix of the undiluted stuff? Would it
be appropriate for a barrel fermentation? I'd like to see French oak on
blackberry. I'll bet it'd be really nice!

Tom S

Tom, Dar and Paul - Tom...I couldn't get a brix on the syrup...just too
thick. I did several dilutions and the pH was 3.09 to 3.11 regardless of
concentration. I will have about 4 to 5 gallons of wine so not enough for a
barrel but I may use some French cubes. Dar...I bought the syrup from a
local winery. They make mostly hybrid wines but they do make a terrific
raspberry and blackberry. Both are finished with some white wine and are
sweetened to taste...I would guess 3 to 5% rs. Since the acid is so high I
will do the same. I'm worried about a spontaneous ML fermentation in my
cellar. This always happens. I have been able to stop these unwanted ML
fermentations with Lysozyme. I guess I could let a ML start and keep an eye
on %TA, then stop it at some point. I've never made a high acid, blackberry
before so I was mainly curious if anyone would suggest diluting the juice
until the acid was lower, then add sugar to bring the brix back up. Really
didn't want to do that because the juice diluted to brix 18 tastes really
good. Dar...I think this will make 10% alcohol if it ferments to dryness.
But, I'm using DSM Fermiblanc yeast which is similar to Epernay 2 so it may
pull up a bit short. Time will tell.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA

"Tom S" wrote in message
m...

"William Frazier" wrote in message
...
I have some highly concentrated blackberry juice that I will make into
wine. I diluted some juice with water to brix 18. The pH was 3.05 and TA
was 1.90%. The blackberry flavor was wonderful, albeit tart. I make
mostly grape wines and a TA this high would result in an undrinkable wine.
I hesitate to add K bicarbonate to lower the acid because I believe
blackberries contain mostly malic acid. For those that make blackberry
wine how would you proceed? Thanks.

Hi, Bill -

I don't make blackberry wine, but if the dominant acid is malic it sounds
like a natural for acid reduction via ML.

Just curious: what was the pH and Brix of the undiluted stuff? Would it
be appropriate for a barrel fermentation? I'd like to see French oak on
blackberry. I'll bet it'd be really nice!

Tom S

You need to hit Jack Keller's website, man. He makes wine outta
everything, try this out...

http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/recipe2.asp

Artie

On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 02:10:38 GMT, "William Frazier"
wrote:

I have some highly concentrated blackberry juice that I will make into wine.
I diluted some juice with water to brix 18. The pH was 3.05 and TA was
1.90%. The blackberry flavor was wonderful, albeit tart. I make mostly
grape wines and a TA this high would result in an undrinkable wine. I
hesitate to add K bicarbonate to lower the acid because I believe
blackberries contain mostly malic acid. For those that make blackberry wine
how would you proceed? Thanks.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA,

William Frazier wrote:

The blackberry flavor was wonderful, albeit tart. I make mostly
grape wines and a TA this high would result in an undrinkable wine. I
hesitate to add K bicarbonate to lower the acid because I believe
blackberries contain mostly malic acid.

Maybe you can split the batch, and reduce the acid on a half or third of
the batch, and then mix it back in, that way you'll keep some of the
tartness. It might be possible to MLF half of it, and keep the other
half sulphited/lysozyme'd, and then you could blend it. Just a stray
thought...

--
Charles Horslin
Kitchener/St.Catharines, ON

William Frazier wrote:

The blackberry flavor was wonderful, albeit tart. I make mostly
grape wines and a TA this high would result in an undrinkable wine. I
hesitate to add K bicarbonate to lower the acid because I believe
blackberries contain mostly malic acid.

Maybe you can split the batch, and reduce the acid on a half or third of
the batch, and then mix it back in, that way you'll keep some of the
tartness. It might be possible to MLF half of it, and keep the other
half sulphited/lysozyme'd, and then you could blend it. Just a stray
thought...

--
Charles Horslin
Kitchener/St.Catharines, ON

Hi Bill

Another opinion. All of your first instincts were the right ones. If you
do
not want to use a fixed recipe, you need to design your own ferment and
"create" your own must. I would dilute to get control of the acid and
add sugar to get the desired amount of end alcohol.

Since you want a sweet wine, remember that we measure everything as
"concentrations" and adding post ferment sugar will dilute the wine and
cause changes in the concentration of everything else. Thus, you will
want to start the must with slightly higher values than you want to end
up with. I would suggest starting the must at ~3.3-3.4pH and
~21-22 BRIX.

MLF is your enemy on this one. Do_not_ allow it to happen !! HTH

Frederick

PS - If you like the wine from that winery, why not get a bottle of their
wine, bring it home, run every test and measurement that you can, and
shoot for the same numbers they ended up with. IOW - use_their_
success as_your_ guide.



"William Frazier" wrote in message
...
Tom, Dar and Paul - Tom...I couldn't get a brix on the syrup...just too
thick. I did several dilutions and the pH was 3.09 to 3.11 regardless of
concentration. I will have about 4 to 5 gallons of wine so not enough for
a barrel but I may use some French cubes. Dar...I bought the syrup from a
local winery. They make mostly hybrid wines but they do make a terrific
raspberry and blackberry. Both are finished with some white wine and are
sweetened to taste...I would guess 3 to 5% rs. Since the acid is so high
I will do the same. I'm worried about a spontaneous ML fermentation in my
cellar. This always happens. I have been able to stop these unwanted ML
fermentations with Lysozyme. I guess I could let a ML start and keep an
eye on %TA, then stop it at some point. I've never made a high acid,
blackberry before so I was mainly curious if anyone would suggest diluting
the juice until the acid was lower, then add sugar to bring the brix back
up. Really didn't want to do that because the juice diluted to brix 18
tastes really good. Dar...I think this will make 10% alcohol if it
ferments to dryness. But, I'm using DSM Fermiblanc yeast which is similar
to Epernay 2 so it may pull up a bit short. Time will tell.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA

"Tom S" wrote in message
m...

"William Frazier" wrote in message
...
I have some highly concentrated blackberry juice that I will make into
wine. I diluted some juice with water to brix 18. The pH was 3.05 and TA
was 1.90%. The blackberry flavor was wonderful, albeit tart. I make
mostly grape wines and a TA this high would result in an undrinkable
wine. I hesitate to add K bicarbonate to lower the acid because I believe
blackberries contain mostly malic acid. For those that make blackberry
wine how would you proceed? Thanks.

Hi, Bill -

I don't make blackberry wine, but if the dominant acid is malic it sounds
like a natural for acid reduction via ML.

Just curious: what was the pH and Brix of the undiluted stuff? Would it
be appropriate for a barrel fermentation? I'd like to see French oak on
blackberry. I'll bet it'd be really nice!

Tom S

Bill,
For some reason I didn't catch your response below, but caught it when
Frederick responded to you. Frederick has some good points as well. From
some of the reading I've done about blackberry wine, it does need to age at
least a year, and may get better as it ages longer. I thought that in order
to get a wine to keep the best over a long period, one needs to get the
alcohol level to about 11%. I don't know if this is a concern for you or
not. There's a winery up north which makes country wines, and they usually
have 11% alcohol by volume.
Darlene
Wisconsin

"frederick ploegman" wrote in message
...
Hi Bill

Another opinion. All of your first instincts were the right ones. If you
do
not want to use a fixed recipe, you need to design your own ferment and
"create" your own must. I would dilute to get control of the acid and
add sugar to get the desired amount of end alcohol.

Since you want a sweet wine, remember that we measure everything as
"concentrations" and adding post ferment sugar will dilute the wine and
cause changes in the concentration of everything else. Thus, you will
want to start the must with slightly higher values than you want to end
up with. I would suggest starting the must at ~3.3-3.4pH and
~21-22 BRIX.

MLF is your enemy on this one. Do_not_ allow it to happen !! HTH

Frederick

PS - If you like the wine from that winery, why not get a bottle of their
wine, bring it home, run every test and measurement that you can, and
shoot for the same numbers they ended up with. IOW - use_their_
success as_your_ guide.



"William Frazier" wrote in message
...
Tom, Dar and Paul - Tom...I couldn't get a brix on the syrup...just too
thick. I did several dilutions and the pH was 3.09 to 3.11 regardless of
concentration. I will have about 4 to 5 gallons of wine so not enough
for a barrel but I may use some French cubes. Dar...I bought the syrup
from a local winery. They make mostly hybrid wines but they do make a
terrific raspberry and blackberry. Both are finished with some white
wine and are sweetened to taste...I would guess 3 to 5% rs. Since the
acid is so high I will do the same. I'm worried about a spontaneous ML
fermentation in my cellar. This always happens. I have been able to
stop these unwanted ML fermentations with Lysozyme. I guess I could let
a ML start and keep an eye on %TA, then stop it at some point. I've
never made a high acid, blackberry before so I was mainly curious if
anyone would suggest diluting the juice until the acid was lower, then
add sugar to bring the brix back up. Really didn't want to do that
because the juice diluted to brix 18 tastes really good. Dar...I think
this will make 10% alcohol if it ferments to dryness. But, I'm using DSM
Fermiblanc yeast which is similar to Epernay 2 so it may pull up a bit
short. Time will tell.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA

"Tom S" wrote in message
m...

"William Frazier" wrote in message
...
I have some highly concentrated blackberry juice that I will make into
wine. I diluted some juice with water to brix 18. The pH was 3.05 and
TA was 1.90%. The blackberry flavor was wonderful, albeit tart. I make
mostly grape wines and a TA this high would result in an undrinkable
wine. I hesitate to add K bicarbonate to lower the acid because I
believe blackberries contain mostly malic acid. For those that make
blackberry wine how would you proceed? Thanks.

Hi, Bill -

I don't make blackberry wine, but if the dominant acid is malic it
sounds like a natural for acid reduction via ML.

Just curious: what was the pH and Brix of the undiluted stuff? Would
it be appropriate for a barrel fermentation? I'd like to see French oak
on blackberry. I'll bet it'd be really nice!

Tom S

Frederick wrote with respect to vinting a blackberry wine similar to a
locally produced commercial wine
" PS - If you like the wine from that winery, why not get a bottle of their
wine, bring it home, run every test and measurement that you can, and
shoot for the same numbers they ended up with. IOW - use_their_
success as_your_ guide."

Frederick, Darlene...This is of course the best way to approach this
project. I'm good friends with the winemaker (he's a member of our KC
Cellarmaster club) who supplied the blackberry syrup. He gave some general
guidelines on how he makes the wine and I was in his winery recently to see
his fermentation. I always have to change things when I make wine or beer
so I did some reading on Ben Rotter' site where he advocates 100% juice
wines instead of diluting fruit juice per Jack Keller's site. I hate hot
wines so I thought I would shoot for a 10% alcohol content. Then if I add
sugar to sweeten after fermentation the wine would probably end up around 9%
alcohol...sort of like a German wine.

The wine started fermenting at 10.2 brix, pH 3.05 and TA 1.90%. I'm using
Fermiblanc Arom yeast which is similar to Epernay 2. This yeast has
resulted in some very good white wines in my cellar with pronounced fruit
aromas.

Well, I chickend out. A TA of 1.9% just connot end up being drinkable. So,
I made up some 10.2 brix sugar syrup and diluted the fermenting wine to a
theoretical 1.4% TA. This is still way too high for the grape wines I
usually make. But, I know my winemaking friend is vinting his wine with an
acid content near this value...actually a bit higher. I'll let this one
ferment out as is, evaluate and then decide how to make blackberry in the
future. It's nice to be able to buy a little high quality, commercial
blackberry syrup for home winemaking experiments.

One point well taken...I'll use Lysozyme to block a ML fermentation and
retain the acid mix that's native to blackberries. Thanks for you comments.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA

Frederick wrote with respect to vinting a blackberry wine similar to a
locally produced commercial wine
" PS - If you like the wine from that winery, why not get a bottle of their
wine, bring it home, run every test and measurement that you can, and
shoot for the same numbers they ended up with. IOW - use_their_
success as_your_ guide."

Frederick, Darlene...This is of course the best way to approach this
project. I'm good friends with the winemaker (he's a member of our KC
Cellarmaster club) who supplied the blackberry syrup. He gave some general
guidelines on how he makes the wine and I was in his winery recently to see
his fermentation. I always have to change things when I make wine or beer
so I did some reading on Ben Rotter' site where he advocates 100% juice
wines instead of diluting fruit juice per Jack Keller's site. I hate hot
wines so I thought I would shoot for a 10% alcohol content. Then if I add
sugar to sweeten after fermentation the wine would probably end up around 9%
alcohol...sort of like a German wine.

The wine started fermenting at 10.2 brix, pH 3.05 and TA 1.90%. I'm using
Fermiblanc Arom yeast which is similar to Epernay 2. This yeast has
resulted in some very good white wines in my cellar with pronounced fruit
aromas.

Well, I chickend out. A TA of 1.9% just connot end up being drinkable. So,
I made up some 10.2 brix sugar syrup and diluted the fermenting wine to a
theoretical 1.4% TA. This is still way too high for the grape wines I
usually make. But, I know my winemaking friend is vinting his wine with an
acid content near this value...actually a bit higher. I'll let this one
ferment out as is, evaluate and then decide how to make blackberry in the
future. It's nice to be able to buy a little high quality, commercial
blackberry syrup for home winemaking experiments.

One point well taken...I'll use Lysozyme to block a ML fermentation and
retain the acid mix that's native to blackberries. Thanks for you comments.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA

One point well taken...I'll use Lysozyme to block a ML fermentation
and
retain the acid mix that's native to blackberries. Thanks for you
comments.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA

Bill:

One thing that I haven't really seen mentioned in the lysozyme
instructions is that it will also fine your reds, quite radically. It's
an enzyme from egg whites, so it makes sense as egg whites are used to
fine tannins. I've never done this, but it seems it would make sense to
counterfine when using it. Does anybody know which fining agent would
be ok for this - i.e. not disabling the lysozyme activity like
bentonite does? I hope kieselsol would work but am not sure.

Pp