One point well taken...I'll use Lysozyme to block a ML fermentation
and
retain the acid mix that's native to blackberries. Thanks for you
comments.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA

Bill:

One thing that I haven't really seen mentioned in the lysozyme
instructions is that it will also fine your reds, quite radically. It's
an enzyme from egg whites, so it makes sense as egg whites are used to
fine tannins. I've never done this, but it seems it would make sense to
counterfine when using it. Does anybody know which fining agent would
be ok for this - i.e. not disabling the lysozyme activity like
bentonite does? I hope kieselsol would work but am not sure.

Pp

My goodness me I never knew that making Blackberry wine was so complicated.
Mind you I have only been doing it for the lat 30 years, off and on.

I don't think that I have drastically altered the recipe I got from a
paperback book by H E Bravery goodness knows when!

I use 5 lbs of fruit/gal (imp) --- 4 blackberry and 1 elderberry. I adjust
the OG to about 1.085 and ferment with a Bordeaux style yeast and ferment
out to dry.
I bulk mature it for 2 years and these days I make it about every 2 years.

If you must insist in having it sweet, then I believe that the best way of
doing it, without affecting the wine in the long term is to drop a sweetener
or two just before serving. Most "sweeter wine" drinkers would not know any
difference. Sugar/Sweeteners hid a multitude of sins!

I would not begin to criticise those who drink sweet wines but most people,
as they accustom to drinking better wines, also find their tastes developed
to drier wines where one can actually taste the nuances of the wine ( both
good and bad!).

It will be obvious that I am not a sweet wine drinker -- I do enjoy
assessing the wines I make and drink ( and those I buy and drink) and
storing the "rating" up there in my noodle.

I have many happy memories associated with all sorts of wines from a very
young age. Many old ones distorted by time and age --- as are all early and
happy memories.

I will stop. I am rabbiting as usual on one of my favourite subjects

--
Trevor A Panther
In South Yorkshire, England
Remove "PSANTISPAM" from my address line to reply.
All outgoing mail is scanned by Norton
Anti Virus for your protection too!
"William Frazier" wrote in message
news

Frederick wrote with respect to vinting a blackberry wine similar to a
locally produced commercial wine
" PS - If you like the wine from that winery, why not get a bottle of
their
wine, bring it home, run every test and measurement that you can, and
shoot for the same numbers they ended up with. IOW - use_their_
success as_your_ guide."

Frederick, Darlene...This is of course the best way to approach this
project. I'm good friends with the winemaker (he's a member of our KC
Cellarmaster club) who supplied the blackberry syrup. He gave some
general
guidelines on how he makes the wine and I was in his winery recently to
see
his fermentation. I always have to change things when I make wine or beer
so I did some reading on Ben Rotter' site where he advocates 100% juice
wines instead of diluting fruit juice per Jack Keller's site. I hate hot
wines so I thought I would shoot for a 10% alcohol content. Then if I
add
sugar to sweeten after fermentation the wine would probably end up around
9%
alcohol...sort of like a German wine.

The wine started fermenting at 10.2 brix, pH 3.05 and TA 1.90%. I'm using
Fermiblanc Arom yeast which is similar to Epernay 2. This yeast has
resulted in some very good white wines in my cellar with pronounced fruit
aromas.

Well, I chickend out. A TA of 1.9% just connot end up being drinkable.
So,
I made up some 10.2 brix sugar syrup and diluted the fermenting wine to a
theoretical 1.4% TA. This is still way too high for the grape wines I
usually make. But, I know my winemaking friend is vinting his wine with
an
acid content near this value...actually a bit higher. I'll let this one
ferment out as is, evaluate and then decide how to make blackberry in the
future. It's nice to be able to buy a little high quality, commercial
blackberry syrup for home winemaking experiments.

One point well taken...I'll use Lysozyme to block a ML fermentation and
retain the acid mix that's native to blackberries. Thanks for you
comments.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA

My goodness me I never knew that making Blackberry wine was so complicated.
Mind you I have only been doing it for the lat 30 years, off and on.

I don't think that I have drastically altered the recipe I got from a
paperback book by H E Bravery goodness knows when!

I use 5 lbs of fruit/gal (imp) --- 4 blackberry and 1 elderberry. I adjust
the OG to about 1.085 and ferment with a Bordeaux style yeast and ferment
out to dry.
I bulk mature it for 2 years and these days I make it about every 2 years.

If you must insist in having it sweet, then I believe that the best way of
doing it, without affecting the wine in the long term is to drop a sweetener
or two just before serving. Most "sweeter wine" drinkers would not know any
difference. Sugar/Sweeteners hid a multitude of sins!

I would not begin to criticise those who drink sweet wines but most people,
as they accustom to drinking better wines, also find their tastes developed
to drier wines where one can actually taste the nuances of the wine ( both
good and bad!).

It will be obvious that I am not a sweet wine drinker -- I do enjoy
assessing the wines I make and drink ( and those I buy and drink) and
storing the "rating" up there in my noodle.

I have many happy memories associated with all sorts of wines from a very
young age. Many old ones distorted by time and age --- as are all early and
happy memories.

I will stop. I am rabbiting as usual on one of my favourite subjects

--
Trevor A Panther
In South Yorkshire, England
Remove "PSANTISPAM" from my address line to reply.
All outgoing mail is scanned by Norton
Anti Virus for your protection too!
"William Frazier" wrote in message
news

Frederick wrote with respect to vinting a blackberry wine similar to a
locally produced commercial wine
" PS - If you like the wine from that winery, why not get a bottle of
their
wine, bring it home, run every test and measurement that you can, and
shoot for the same numbers they ended up with. IOW - use_their_
success as_your_ guide."

Frederick, Darlene...This is of course the best way to approach this
project. I'm good friends with the winemaker (he's a member of our KC
Cellarmaster club) who supplied the blackberry syrup. He gave some
general
guidelines on how he makes the wine and I was in his winery recently to
see
his fermentation. I always have to change things when I make wine or beer
so I did some reading on Ben Rotter' site where he advocates 100% juice
wines instead of diluting fruit juice per Jack Keller's site. I hate hot
wines so I thought I would shoot for a 10% alcohol content. Then if I
add
sugar to sweeten after fermentation the wine would probably end up around
9%
alcohol...sort of like a German wine.

The wine started fermenting at 10.2 brix, pH 3.05 and TA 1.90%. I'm using
Fermiblanc Arom yeast which is similar to Epernay 2. This yeast has
resulted in some very good white wines in my cellar with pronounced fruit
aromas.

Well, I chickend out. A TA of 1.9% just connot end up being drinkable.
So,
I made up some 10.2 brix sugar syrup and diluted the fermenting wine to a
theoretical 1.4% TA. This is still way too high for the grape wines I
usually make. But, I know my winemaking friend is vinting his wine with
an
acid content near this value...actually a bit higher. I'll let this one
ferment out as is, evaluate and then decide how to make blackberry in the
future. It's nice to be able to buy a little high quality, commercial
blackberry syrup for home winemaking experiments.

One point well taken...I'll use Lysozyme to block a ML fermentation and
retain the acid mix that's native to blackberries. Thanks for you
comments.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA

"pinky" wrote in message
.uk...
My goodness me I never knew that making Blackberry wine was so
complicated. Mind you I have only been doing it for the lat 30 years, off
and on.

I don't think that I have drastically altered the recipe I got from a
paperback book by H E Bravery goodness knows when!

I use 5 lbs of fruit/gal (imp) --- 4 blackberry and 1 elderberry. I adjust
the OG to about 1.085 and ferment with a Bordeaux style yeast and ferment
out to dry.
I bulk mature it for 2 years and these days I make it about every 2 years.

If you must insist in having it sweet, then I believe that the best way
of doing it, without affecting the wine in the long term is to drop a
sweetener or two just before serving. Most "sweeter wine" drinkers would
not know any difference. Sugar/Sweeteners hid a multitude of sins!

I would not begin to criticise those who drink sweet wines but most
people, as they accustom to drinking better wines, also find their tastes
developed to drier wines where one can actually taste the nuances of the
wine ( both good and bad!).

It will be obvious that I am not a sweet wine drinker -- I do enjoy
assessing the wines I make and drink ( and those I buy and drink) and
storing the "rating" up there in my noodle.

I have many happy memories associated with all sorts of wines from a very
young age. Many old ones distorted by time and age --- as are all early
and happy memories.

I will stop. I am rabbiting as usual on one of my favourite subjects

--
Trevor A Panther
In South Yorkshire, England
Remove "PSANTISPAM" from my address line to reply.
All outgoing mail is scanned by Norton
Anti Virus for your protection too!
"William Frazier" wrote in message
news

You see Trevor, anything can be as complicated as you want to make it. You
have complicated the recipe by adding a second fruit. And the best way to
complicate something is to put it to committee -- as on this news group!.

But berry wines are fantastic wines and deserve a lot of discussion and
experimentation. I agree, I prefer them dry but I have had some delightful
sweet berry wines. I must complicate my recipe and try to make a sweet one
some time.

Ray.

"pinky" wrote in message
.uk...
My goodness me I never knew that making Blackberry wine was so
complicated. Mind you I have only been doing it for the lat 30 years, off
and on.

I don't think that I have drastically altered the recipe I got from a
paperback book by H E Bravery goodness knows when!

I use 5 lbs of fruit/gal (imp) --- 4 blackberry and 1 elderberry. I adjust
the OG to about 1.085 and ferment with a Bordeaux style yeast and ferment
out to dry.
I bulk mature it for 2 years and these days I make it about every 2 years.

If you must insist in having it sweet, then I believe that the best way
of doing it, without affecting the wine in the long term is to drop a
sweetener or two just before serving. Most "sweeter wine" drinkers would
not know any difference. Sugar/Sweeteners hid a multitude of sins!

I would not begin to criticise those who drink sweet wines but most
people, as they accustom to drinking better wines, also find their tastes
developed to drier wines where one can actually taste the nuances of the
wine ( both good and bad!).

It will be obvious that I am not a sweet wine drinker -- I do enjoy
assessing the wines I make and drink ( and those I buy and drink) and
storing the "rating" up there in my noodle.

I have many happy memories associated with all sorts of wines from a very
young age. Many old ones distorted by time and age --- as are all early
and happy memories.

I will stop. I am rabbiting as usual on one of my favourite subjects

--
Trevor A Panther
In South Yorkshire, England
Remove "PSANTISPAM" from my address line to reply.
All outgoing mail is scanned by Norton
Anti Virus for your protection too!
"William Frazier" wrote in message
news

You see Trevor, anything can be as complicated as you want to make it. You
have complicated the recipe by adding a second fruit. And the best way to
complicate something is to put it to committee -- as on this news group!.

But berry wines are fantastic wines and deserve a lot of discussion and
experimentation. I agree, I prefer them dry but I have had some delightful
sweet berry wines. I must complicate my recipe and try to make a sweet one
some time.

Ray.

Trevor and others following this thread; If I could have found a reference
to what a starting %TA for blackberry wine should be this would have been
quite simple. There are lots of references for pounds of fruit per gallon.
And, there is quite a debate about what this figure should be. Note that
I'm not working with actual berries. I bought a gallon of very concentrated
blackberry syrup that I estimate was 82 brix. This was diluted to 18.2 brix
with water but the %TA was 1.90. I guess you could say that 0.65%TA would
be a good starting acid but I estimate I would have had to dilute 1 part
juice with 9 parts water to achieve this. This seemed pretty drastic. So,
I stopped inbetween.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA

"pinky" wrote in message
.uk...
My goodness me I never knew that making Blackberry wine was so
complicated. Mind you I have only been doing it for the lat 30 years, off
and on.

William Frazier wrote:
Trevor and others following this thread; If I could have found a
reference
to what a starting %TA for blackberry wine should be this would have
been
quite simple. There are lots of references for pounds of fruit per
gallon.
And, there is quite a debate about what this figure should be. Note
that
I'm not working with actual berries. I bought a gallon of very
concentrated
blackberry syrup that I estimate was 82 brix. This was diluted to
18.2 brix
with water but the %TA was 1.90. I guess you could say that 0.65%TA
would
be a good starting acid but I estimate I would have had to dilute 1
part
juice with 9 parts water to achieve this. This seemed pretty
drastic. So,
I stopped inbetween.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA


I agree 100%. My biggest problem with "recipes" is that they don't have
any numbers - expected sg, pH, TA. Fruit differs drastically depending
where it's grown and when it's picked up, so "x lbs of something" is a
very rough measure. It would make much more sense to have basic numbers
as a sanity check.

Pp

pinky wrote:

I would not begin to criticise those who drink sweet wines but most
people,
as they accustom to drinking better wines, also find their tastes
developed
to drier wines where one can actually taste the nuances of the wine (
both
good and bad!).


And then when they gain real knowledge of wines and lose their
insecurities, they realize that the great sweet wines of the world are
just as, if not more, complex and awe inspiring than the great dry
wines. TBA's, Sauternes, Tokaji, SGNs (just to name a few) are all
sweet wines that are usually appreciated by even the most refined wine
drinkers, some would say only by the most refined.

Andy

You are trying to turn winemaking into a science. If we only knew what to
set all the parameters to we could turn out great wines every time. Well it
just does not work that way. It depends on the soil and the rain fall the
number of days that are cloudy when it does not rain and maybe the number of
migrating birds that fly over the berry patch. All of this can effect the
amount of acidity and the ammount of bitterness and the amount of blackberry
taste that is in the fruit. All of this must be balanced but we do not know
what all of this is and we do not know how to measure it.

There are some things that we can measure with some level of inaccuracy and
convince ourselves that we know what we are doing. We can use a hydrometer
and measure the starting SG and we can even measure the ending SG and we can
calculate the amount of alcohol that was produced. But how much of that
sugar was used to make alcohol and how much was used to make glycerol or
some other end product according to how the yeast happened to be functioning
on a particular day. For a given drop in SG you may end up with 13% alcohol
and .25% glycerol or 11.5% alcohol and 1.75% glycerol or some other end
product may slip in and change the end products. You might send it to a lab
but your hydrometer will not tell you what you got.

There are things in the wine that will use up acids or produce acids. There
are things that will buffer the acids or things that will ruin the buffering
properties of the wine. You may end up with a low pH/high TA wine or you
may end up with a high pH/low TA wine.

Why do you think a winery turns out wines that taste different each year
using the same grapes from the same vines on the same hill using the same
equipment and the same procedures. It just is not a science.

This is not a simple, set the number and get the color change science like
high school chemistry lab. Relax and let things happen. If they do not
happen the way you thought they would -- then either correct them in the end
or "viva la difference".

Ray.

"William Frazier" wrote in message
...
Trevor and others following this thread; If I could have found a
reference to what a starting %TA for blackberry wine should be this would
have been quite simple. There are lots of references for pounds of fruit
per gallon. And, there is quite a debate about what this figure should be.
Note that I'm not working with actual berries. I bought a gallon of very
concentrated blackberry syrup that I estimate was 82 brix. This was
diluted to 18.2 brix with water but the %TA was 1.90. I guess you could
say that 0.65%TA would be a good starting acid but I estimate I would have
had to dilute 1 part juice with 9 parts water to achieve this. This
seemed pretty drastic. So, I stopped inbetween.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA

"pinky" wrote in message
.uk...
My goodness me I never knew that making Blackberry wine was so
complicated. Mind you I have only been doing it for the lat 30 years, off
and on.