Wait,that's not good. You do NOT want MLF in the presence of sorbate,
it's too late to go for MLF if you used sorbate in any amount. Your
wine will smell like geraniums. Lysosome encourages MLF from what I
read, not discourages it. I never use it so can't speak much to it's
benefits.

You have no activity so that is good. I would suggest you use at least
0.8 molecular for the free sulfite value at pH 3.6, it's 50 PPM. I
would chill and rack off the lees if it clears when cold, if it doesn't
counterfine, gelatin is more effective with a little shot of tannin
first as I recall, or you could use sparkleoid or isinglass.

Joe




I also ran a chomotography to check for ML activity. There *might* be
something
going on in that regard, as there faint spots for both malic and
lactic acids.
I suppose I can hit it with some lysozyme, just to be sure. On the
other hand,
there appears to be *zero* activity that I can see - no bubbles,
nothing.

I'm open to suggestions. Lysozyme addition? Coarse filtration
followed by
sterile filtration? Re-chilling? Gelatin? All of the above?

--Lee

Wait,that's not good. You do NOT want MLF in the presence of sorbate,
it's too late to go for MLF if you used sorbate in any amount. Your
wine will smell like geraniums. Lysosome encourages MLF from what I
read, not discourages it. I never use it so can't speak much to it's
benefits.

You have no activity so that is good. I would suggest you use at least
0.8 molecular for the free sulfite value at pH 3.6, it's 50 PPM. I
would chill and rack off the lees if it clears when cold, if it doesn't
counterfine, gelatin is more effective with a little shot of tannin
first as I recall, or you could use sparkleoid or isinglass.

Joe




I also ran a chomotography to check for ML activity. There *might* be
something
going on in that regard, as there faint spots for both malic and
lactic acids.
I suppose I can hit it with some lysozyme, just to be sure. On the
other hand,
there appears to be *zero* activity that I can see - no bubbles,
nothing.

I'm open to suggestions. Lysozyme addition? Coarse filtration
followed by
sterile filtration? Re-chilling? Gelatin? All of the above?

--Lee

Joe Sallustio wrote:
Wait,that's not good. You do NOT want MLF in the presence of sorbate,
it's too late to go for MLF if you used sorbate in any amount. Your
wine will smell like geraniums. Lysosome encourages MLF from what I
read, not discourages it. I never use it so can't speak much to it's
benefits.

You have no activity so that is good. I would suggest you use at least
0.8 molecular for the free sulfite value at pH 3.6, it's 50 PPM. I
would chill and rack off the lees if it clears when cold, if it doesn't
counterfine, gelatin is more effective with a little shot of tannin
first as I recall, or you could use sparkleoid or isinglass.

Joe


Free SO2 is up around 100 now, a bit high, but not outrageously so.
Have moved the carboys back out to the garage to catch a chill.
We've got some temps in the teens coming, so I'll let it cool down
for a few days, then rack it cold and see what happens.

--Lee

Lee - If you have malic and lactic acid spots on your chromatography paper
you have a ML fermentation in process. In some of my wines that have a MLF
underway it's very difficult to see bubbles at first. The wines have just
been cloudy like you mention. As the temperature warms up and/or after the
bacteria have really increased in number ML fermentation is more apparent
with lots of bubbling.

I'm open to suggestions. Lysozyme addition? Coarse filtration followed by
sterile filtration? Re-chilling? Gelatin? All of the above?

I read here that sulfite will stop or prevent MLF. This may be so if the
sulfite is added before a MLF gets underway or if enough SO2 is added.
However, I've had MLF take place in some of my wines that I believed were
well protected with sulfite. Since I add ML culture to my red wines the
organisms are just floating around in my cellar and it's real hard to
prevent MLF in my white wines.

I had good success stopping MLF by adding Lysozyme at 200 to 500 ppm (at
least 0.75 grams per gallon) in cloudy wines that show malic and lactic acid
spots like you describe. The wines I've treated have become crystal clear
in a couple of days.

Once you get the MLF stopped and the wine clears your 0.2 micron Duofine
filter will render the wine sterile. But sterile operation is next to
impossible in typical basement operations. Everything downstream from the
filter has to be sterile...that's the big problem. But, proper SO2 levels,
K sorbate at 200 ppm and sterile filtration should be enough.

Check out PIWC, Scottlab or The Winelab for some info on Lysozyme. Good
luck.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA

William Frazier wrote:
Lee - If you have malic and lactic acid spots on your chromatography paper
you have a ML fermentation in process. In some of my wines that have a MLF
underway it's very difficult to see bubbles at first. The wines have just
been cloudy like you mention. As the temperature warms up and/or after the
bacteria have really increased in number ML fermentation is more apparent
with lots of bubbling.

I'm open to suggestions. Lysozyme addition? Coarse filtration followed by
sterile filtration? Re-chilling? Gelatin? All of the above?

I read here that sulfite will stop or prevent MLF. This may be so if the
sulfite is added before a MLF gets underway or if enough SO2 is added.
However, I've had MLF take place in some of my wines that I believed were
well protected with sulfite. Since I add ML culture to my red wines the
organisms are just floating around in my cellar and it's real hard to
prevent MLF in my white wines.

I had good success stopping MLF by adding Lysozyme at 200 to 500 ppm (at
least 0.75 grams per gallon) in cloudy wines that show malic and lactic acid
spots like you describe. The wines I've treated have become crystal clear
in a couple of days.

Once you get the MLF stopped and the wine clears your 0.2 micron Duofine
filter will render the wine sterile. But sterile operation is next to
impossible in typical basement operations. Everything downstream from the
filter has to be sterile...that's the big problem. But, proper SO2 levels,
K sorbate at 200 ppm and sterile filtration should be enough.

Check out PIWC, Scottlab or The Winelab for some info on Lysozyme. Good
luck.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA


Thanks, Bill. I got some lysozyme from PI. May give that a shot...

--Lee

Joe Sallustio wrote:
Wait,that's not good. You do NOT want MLF in the presence of
sorbate,
it's too late to go for MLF if you used sorbate in any amount. Your
wine will smell like geraniums. Lysosome encourages MLF from what I
read, not discourages it. I never use it so can't speak much to it's
benefits.


Joe:

It's the opposite - lysozyme kills ML bacteria. Check out
http://www.scottlaboratories.com/pro...ialcontrol.asp

Pp

Hi

If you use lysozyme, it binds with bentonite, and thus is inactivated by
it. I find there are fewer filtration problems if I use bentonite a
10-14 days after adding the lysozyme to my wines. Since lysozyme is not
removed by filtration, it is a good idea to deactivate it prior to
filtration.

The specifics of lysozyme use are in on the Scott site that Pp provided
above.

Regards

Jerry

wrote in message
news:1109856186.353025@s0...
William Frazier wrote:
Lee - If you have malic and lactic acid spots on your chromatography
paper
you have a ML fermentation in process. In some of my wines that have
a MLF
underway it's very difficult to see bubbles at first. The wines have
just
been cloudy like you mention. As the temperature warms up and/or
after the
bacteria have really increased in number ML fermentation is more
apparent
with lots of bubbling.

I'm open to suggestions. Lysozyme addition? Coarse filtration
followed by
sterile filtration? Re-chilling? Gelatin? All of the above?

I read here that sulfite will stop or prevent MLF. This may be so if
the
sulfite is added before a MLF gets underway or if enough SO2 is
added.
However, I've had MLF take place in some of my wines that I believed
were
well protected with sulfite. Since I add ML culture to my red wines
the
organisms are just floating around in my cellar and it's real hard to
prevent MLF in my white wines.

I had good success stopping MLF by adding Lysozyme at 200 to 500 ppm
(at
least 0.75 grams per gallon) in cloudy wines that show malic and
lactic acid
spots like you describe. The wines I've treated have become crystal
clear
in a couple of days.

Once you get the MLF stopped and the wine clears your 0.2 micron
Duofine
filter will render the wine sterile. But sterile operation is next
to
impossible in typical basement operations. Everything downstream
from the
filter has to be sterile...that's the big problem. But, proper SO2
levels,
K sorbate at 200 ppm and sterile filtration should be enough.

Check out PIWC, Scottlab or The Winelab for some info on Lysozyme.
Good
luck.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA


Thanks, Bill. I got some lysozyme from PI. May give that a shot...

--Lee

Apologies to all on the misinformation.

This is a great link. I rarely encourage MLF since I work with mostly
low acid wines. Any idea what the shelf life is?

Joe

pp wrote:
Joe Sallustio wrote:
Wait,that's not good. You do NOT want MLF in the presence of
sorbate,
it's too late to go for MLF if you used sorbate in any amount.
Your
wine will smell like geraniums. Lysosome encourages MLF from what
I
read, not discourages it. I never use it so can't speak much to
it's
benefits.


Joe:

It's the opposite - lysozyme kills ML bacteria. Check out

http://www.scottlaboratories.com/pro...ialcontrol.asp

Pp

Joe - I have Lysozyme that I bought in 2002. It still worked this winter to
stop an unwanted MLF in this years Vidal. I store it tightly sealed at
cellar temperatures between 60 and 70F.
Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA

"Joe Sallustio" wrote in message
ups.com...
Apologies to all on the misinformation.

This is a great link. I rarely encourage MLF since I work with mostly
low acid wines. Any idea what the shelf life is?

Joe

William Frazier wrote:
Lee - If you have malic and lactic acid spots on your chromatography paper
you have a ML fermentation in process. In some of my wines that have a MLF
underway it's very difficult to see bubbles at first. The wines have just
been cloudy like you mention. As the temperature warms up and/or after the
bacteria have really increased in number ML fermentation is more apparent
with lots of bubbling.

I'm open to suggestions. Lysozyme addition? Coarse filtration followed by
sterile filtration? Re-chilling? Gelatin? All of the above?

I read here that sulfite will stop or prevent MLF. This may be so if the
sulfite is added before a MLF gets underway or if enough SO2 is added.
However, I've had MLF take place in some of my wines that I believed were
well protected with sulfite. Since I add ML culture to my red wines the
organisms are just floating around in my cellar and it's real hard to
prevent MLF in my white wines.

I had good success stopping MLF by adding Lysozyme at 200 to 500 ppm (at
least 0.75 grams per gallon) in cloudy wines that show malic and lactic acid
spots like you describe. The wines I've treated have become crystal clear
in a couple of days.

Once you get the MLF stopped and the wine clears your 0.2 micron Duofine
filter will render the wine sterile. But sterile operation is next to
impossible in typical basement operations. Everything downstream from the
filter has to be sterile...that's the big problem. But, proper SO2 levels,
K sorbate at 200 ppm and sterile filtration should be enough.

Check out PIWC, Scottlab or The Winelab for some info on Lysozyme. Good
luck.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA


I added 100ml of 5% lysozyme solution to each carboy today, which (if I calculated
this correctly) should give 200ppm. I was *very* careful to stir gently so as not
to disturb any of the lees. Cross your fingers. Except for the haze, its already
a very tasty wine.

--Lee

Hi Lee .... Well, the suspense is killing me!! Have you determined if
your haze was from primary restarting, MLF, or something else?? Your
situation is "similar" to that in another thread here "bubbling after
fining", by another "Lee" (not you I assume) who is just seeing bubbles
and it appears it is dissolved CO2.

I hope you can get your wine clear again with a minimal amount of
"doctoring" ... I always hesitate to just "throw stuff" into a wine to
try and fix something because I beleive it does really lower the
quality of the end product a bit .. no quantifiable evidence tho, sorry
:^|

Anyway, I hope you get it clarified because it sounds like you were
really happy with it before this all started!!!

Charlie

pcw wrote:
Hi Lee .... Well, the suspense is killing me!! Have you determined if
your haze was from primary restarting, MLF, or something else?? Your
situation is "similar" to that in another thread here "bubbling after
fining", by another "Lee" (not you I assume) who is just seeing bubbles
and it appears it is dissolved CO2.


Nope, that's the Evil Lee :-)


I hope you can get your wine clear again with a minimal amount of
"doctoring" ... I always hesitate to just "throw stuff" into a wine to
try and fix something because I beleive it does really lower the
quality of the end product a bit .. no quantifiable evidence tho, sorry
:^|

Anyway, I hope you get it clarified because it sounds like you were
really happy with it before this all started!!!

Charlie


Charlie,

The lysozyme appears to be doing the trick. I added it on Sunday, and peeked
at the carboys last night. They are *noticably* clearer.

Just to clarify (pun intended!) the lessons here - is there an advantage to
adding lysozyme to wines that are intended to be sweet? I am assuming said
addition is exclusively for suppression of ML? Are there other benefits?
Are there situations where you would add lysozyme to a dry wine?
When is the best time to make said additions? I'm guessing my late addition
here (as a correction) was not optimal?

--Lee
P.S. Bill, thanks for the original suggestion.

wrote:
pcw wrote:

Just to clarify (pun intended!) the lessons here - is there an
advantage to
adding lysozyme to wines that are intended to be sweet? I am assuming
said
addition is exclusively for suppression of ML? Are there other
benefits?
Are there situations where you would add lysozyme to a dry wine?
When is the best time to make said additions? I'm guessing my late
addition
here (as a correction) was not optimal?

--Lee
P.S. Bill, thanks for the original suggestion.

Lysozyme is used against ML bacteria, but as it is a protein agent, it
can also bind with other things in your wine, notably tannin. In other
words, it can also fine your wine, which can be a good or bad thing,
depending. Being a protein, it could make the wine instable and give
you hazes later, so make sure to bentonite the wine fairly soon.

ML can affect any wine, sweet or dry, so lysozyme is added to any type.
It can be pretty crucial for sweet wines if they were treated with
sorbate because ML would destroy such wines completely.

You can add it at any time, it depends on your goals - I think the
Scott Lab site discusses all that. If you really don't want any ML, the
best time to add is to the must in the beginning. The one thing to keep
in mind is that you shouldn't bentonite the wine/must before lysozyme
addition because bentonite inactivates the enzyme immediately.

Pp