Does anyone know a formula to calculate the freezing temperature of
wine given the alcohol content? Or at least a good,
hang-your-hat-on-it-and-save-the-marriage-avoiding-a-broken-carboy rule
of thumb? I've looked a little for a water/alcohol freezing phase
diagram, and haven't found anything.

It's certainly not getting cold enough during my cold-soaks this year
to worry about it, but in future years, I want to know what to be ready
for.

Rob

Rob wrote:
> Does anyone know a formula to calculate the freezing temperature of
> wine given the alcohol content?

For dry wines, a rough rule is that the freezing point is the negative
temperature (as Celcius) of half the alcoholic content - so a 12% dry
wine freezes at about -6C (21 F).

HTH,

Ben

Rob wrote:
> Does anyone know a formula to calculate the freezing temperature of
> wine given the alcohol content? Or at least a good,
> hang-your-hat-on-it-and-save-the-marriage-avoiding-a-broken-carboy rule
> of thumb? I've looked a little for a water/alcohol freezing phase
> diagram, and haven't found anything.
>
> It's certainly not getting cold enough during my cold-soaks this year
> to worry about it, but in future years, I want to know what to be ready
> for.
>
> Rob
>
Deriving the results from my long ago College Chemistry class, here is
what I calculated:

The active "Antifreeze" in wine, C2H5OH, has a molecular weight of 46.
Typical wine has a concentration of about 14 percent C2H5OH, or about
140 grams per liter. Using fairly rough calculations, 140 grams of
ethanol is about 3 moles of solute in about 850 ml of water forming a
3.5 molal solution. Water has a freezing point depression constant of
1.86, so wine which is 14 percent alcohol will freeze at about -6.5 C,
or about 20 F. Each percent change in alcohol concentration in this
range will change the freezing point by a little less than one degree
Fahrenheit.

Won't the temperature cause some seperation allowing some of the water to
freeze without the antifreeze benefits of the alcohol? Only reason I ask is
eisbock is made by freezing the beer and removing the ice, thereby
increasing the alcohol percentage of the remaining beer.....

"Bruce_Nolte_N3LSY&" > wrote in message
...
> Rob wrote:
>> Does anyone know a formula to calculate the freezing temperature of
>> wine given the alcohol content? Or at least a good,
>> hang-your-hat-on-it-and-save-the-marriage-avoiding-a-broken-carboy rule
>> of thumb? I've looked a little for a water/alcohol freezing phase
>> diagram, and haven't found anything.
>>
>> It's certainly not getting cold enough during my cold-soaks this year
>> to worry about it, but in future years, I want to know what to be ready
>> for.
>>
>> Rob
>>
> Deriving the results from my long ago College Chemistry class, here is
> what I calculated:
>
> The active "Antifreeze" in wine, C2H5OH, has a molecular weight of 46.
> Typical wine has a concentration of about 14 percent C2H5OH, or about 140
> grams per liter. Using fairly rough calculations, 140 grams of ethanol is
> about 3 moles of solute in about 850 ml of water forming a 3.5 molal
> solution. Water has a freezing point depression constant of 1.86, so wine
> which is 14 percent alcohol will freeze at about -6.5 C, or about 20 F.
> Each percent change in alcohol concentration in this range will change the
> freezing point by a little less than one degree Fahrenheit.

Won't the temperature cause some seperation allowing some of the water to
freeze without the antifreeze benefits of the alcohol? Only reason I ask is
eisbock is made by freezing the beer and removing the ice, thereby
increasing the alcohol percentage of the remaining beer.....

"Bruce_Nolte_N3LSY&" > wrote in message
...
> Rob wrote:
>> Does anyone know a formula to calculate the freezing temperature of
>> wine given the alcohol content? Or at least a good,
>> hang-your-hat-on-it-and-save-the-marriage-avoiding-a-broken-carboy rule
>> of thumb? I've looked a little for a water/alcohol freezing phase
>> diagram, and haven't found anything.
>>
>> It's certainly not getting cold enough during my cold-soaks this year
>> to worry about it, but in future years, I want to know what to be ready
>> for.
>>
>> Rob
>>
> Deriving the results from my long ago College Chemistry class, here is
> what I calculated:
>
> The active "Antifreeze" in wine, C2H5OH, has a molecular weight of 46.
> Typical wine has a concentration of about 14 percent C2H5OH, or about 140
> grams per liter. Using fairly rough calculations, 140 grams of ethanol is
> about 3 moles of solute in about 850 ml of water forming a 3.5 molal
> solution. Water has a freezing point depression constant of 1.86, so wine
> which is 14 percent alcohol will freeze at about -6.5 C, or about 20 F.
> Each percent change in alcohol concentration in this range will change the
> freezing point by a little less than one degree Fahrenheit.

"Brian" > wrote in message
news:6tfGd.291$ul4.19@trnddc01...
> Won't the temperature cause some seperation allowing some of the
> water to freeze without the antifreeze benefits of the alcohol? Only
> reason I ask is eisbock is made by freezing the beer and removing the
> ice, thereby increasing the alcohol percentage of the remaining beer.....

Yes, this is true. But the "freezing" point that Bruce calculated isn't the
point where the whole batch of wine freezes, but the temperature at which
water starts to come out as ice crystals. As ice precipitates, the mother
liquor (appropriate term!) becomes richer in ethanol, and resists freezing
further- you will still have some liquid left at -40oC/F, which will be
about 40% ethanol, but you'll have lots of slush mixed in with it. And I'm
sure it would adversely affect the wine.

Cheers

"Brian" > wrote in message
news:6tfGd.291$ul4.19@trnddc01...
> Won't the temperature cause some seperation allowing some of the
> water to freeze without the antifreeze benefits of the alcohol? Only
> reason I ask is eisbock is made by freezing the beer and removing the
> ice, thereby increasing the alcohol percentage of the remaining beer.....

Yes, this is true. But the "freezing" point that Bruce calculated isn't the
point where the whole batch of wine freezes, but the temperature at which
water starts to come out as ice crystals. As ice precipitates, the mother
liquor (appropriate term!) becomes richer in ethanol, and resists freezing
further- you will still have some liquid left at -40oC/F, which will be
about 40% ethanol, but you'll have lots of slush mixed in with it. And I'm
sure it would adversely affect the wine.

Cheers

> At the point that the wine reaches a slushy mixture at -40C/F, the
> liquid is no longer wine, it is brandy ).

While I agree that it's no longer wine, I'm sure that anyone who actually
drinks brandy would disagree with your classification.

Darren George wrote:
> "Brian" > wrote in message
> news:6tfGd.291$ul4.19@trnddc01...
>
>>Won't the temperature cause some seperation allowing some of the
>>water to freeze without the antifreeze benefits of the alcohol? Only
>>reason I ask is eisbock is made by freezing the beer and removing the
>>ice, thereby increasing the alcohol percentage of the remaining beer.....
>
>
> Yes, this is true. But the "freezing" point that Bruce calculated isn't the
> point where the whole batch of wine freezes, but the temperature at which
> water starts to come out as ice crystals. As ice precipitates, the mother
> liquor (appropriate term!) becomes richer in ethanol, and resists freezing
> further- you will still have some liquid left at -40oC/F, which will be
> about 40% ethanol, but you'll have lots of slush mixed in with it. And I'm
> sure it would adversely affect the wine.
>
> Cheers
>
>
At the point that the wine reaches a slushy mixture at -40C/F, the
liquid is no longer wine, it is brandy ).

"Bruce_Nolte_N3LSY&" > wrote in message news:RBjGd.6
> >
> At the point that the wine reaches a slushy mixture at -40C/F, the
> liquid is no longer wine, it is brandy ).

Unless you were stirring the mixture at this temperature you would have and
ice brick with a liquor core.

> Unless you were stirring the mixture at this temperature you would have >
an ice brick with a liquor core.

That would depend on the volume you used, as well as the rate of cooling.
Anytime I've frozen wine (admittedly, on a scale of less than 5 gallons),
I've had a uniform slushination.

Perfect answers everyone, thank you! And I now have a new favorite
phrase - "uniform slushination"!

Perfect answers everyone, thank you! And I now have a new favorite
phrase - "uniform slushination"!

"Darren George" > wrote in message
...
> > At the point that the wine reaches a slushy mixture at -40C/F, the
> > liquid is no longer wine, it is brandy ).
>
> While I agree that it's no longer wine, I'm sure that anyone who actually
> drinks brandy would disagree with your classification.
>
Unless you have achived complete dryness, sg 0.989 or somesuch, the
remaining sugars make it yucky. Trust me.
Bob
--
Remember; Tuesday is Soylent Green Day.

"Darren George" > wrote in message
...
> > At the point that the wine reaches a slushy mixture at -40C/F, the
> > liquid is no longer wine, it is brandy ).
>
> While I agree that it's no longer wine, I'm sure that anyone who actually
> drinks brandy would disagree with your classification.
>
Unless you have achived complete dryness, sg 0.989 or somesuch, the
remaining sugars make it yucky. Trust me.
Bob
--
Remember; Tuesday is Soylent Green Day.

Bob wrote:
> "Darren George" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>>At the point that the wine reaches a slushy mixture at -40C/F, the
>>>liquid is no longer wine, it is brandy ).
>>
>>While I agree that it's no longer wine, I'm sure that anyone who actually
>>drinks brandy would disagree with your classification.
>>
>
> Unless you have achived complete dryness, sg 0.989 or somesuch, the
> remaining sugars make it yucky. Trust me.
> Bob
> --
> Remember; Tuesday is Soylent Green Day.
>
>
Bob,

I will have to keep that point in mind if I want to convert some of my
second run "cooking wine" into brandy by sticking it out onto the back
porch tonight. With a cold working on my sinuses, and the cold wind
howling outside, a snifter full of brandy sounds about right.

Bob wrote:
> "Darren George" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>>At the point that the wine reaches a slushy mixture at -40C/F, the
>>>liquid is no longer wine, it is brandy ).
>>
>>While I agree that it's no longer wine, I'm sure that anyone who actually
>>drinks brandy would disagree with your classification.
>>
>
> Unless you have achived complete dryness, sg 0.989 or somesuch, the
> remaining sugars make it yucky. Trust me.
> Bob
> --
> Remember; Tuesday is Soylent Green Day.
>
>
Bob,

I will have to keep that point in mind if I want to convert some of my
second run "cooking wine" into brandy by sticking it out onto the back
porch tonight. With a cold working on my sinuses, and the cold wind
howling outside, a snifter full of brandy sounds about right.

On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 16:06:13 -0500, "Bob" > wrote:

> Unless you have achived complete dryness, sg 0.989 or somesuch, the
>remaining sugars make it yucky. Trust me.

It's not the remaining sugars so much as the remaining -everything-
which makes it unpleasant.

Freezing out the water leaves all the other components behind- not
only the alcohol and the sugar, but also the flavinoids, tannins,
glycerol, fusel oils, &c., &c. What was wine may become more of a
stew or a soup than a brandy, and your balancing goes straight out the
window.

Cheers,
---The Mad Alchemist---
http://www.mad-alchemy.com
Email sent to the above address, unless clearly marked
as wine or heraldry, will be deleted unread.

"Darren George" > wrote in message
...
> > At the point that the wine reaches a slushy mixture at -40C/F, the
> > liquid is no longer wine, it is brandy ).
>
> While I agree that it's no longer wine, I'm sure that anyone who actually
> drinks brandy would disagree with your classification.
>
It's a spirit and contains all of the heads and tails that distillers like
to get removed. Fusel oils and freinds can be pretty bad in high
concentrations.
If you do this with apple cider the New England term is apple jack, not
apple brandy.

"Darren George" > wrote in message
...
> > At the point that the wine reaches a slushy mixture at -40C/F, the
> > liquid is no longer wine, it is brandy ).
>
> While I agree that it's no longer wine, I'm sure that anyone who actually
> drinks brandy would disagree with your classification.
>
It's a spirit and contains all of the heads and tails that distillers like
to get removed. Fusel oils and freinds can be pretty bad in high
concentrations.
If you do this with apple cider the New England term is apple jack, not
apple brandy.

> It's a spirit and contains all of the heads and tails that distillers like
> to get removed. Fusel oils and freinds can be pretty bad in high
> concentrations.

I think a spirit is, by definition, distilled, not jacked. They're called
"spirits" because they would vanish from the retort and appear elsewhere.
(See- a bit of knowledge of alchemy is occasionally useful!)

> If you do this with apple cider the New England term is apple jack, not
> apple brandy.

I think that's the proper term everywhere, not just New England.

Cheers,

> It's a spirit and contains all of the heads and tails that distillers like
> to get removed. Fusel oils and freinds can be pretty bad in high
> concentrations.

I think a spirit is, by definition, distilled, not jacked. They're called
"spirits" because they would vanish from the retort and appear elsewhere.
(See- a bit of knowledge of alchemy is occasionally useful!)

> If you do this with apple cider the New England term is apple jack, not
> apple brandy.

I think that's the proper term everywhere, not just New England.

Cheers,

>> > At the point that the wine reaches a slushy mixture at -40C/F, the
>> > liquid is no longer wine, it is brandy ).
>>
>> While I agree that it's no longer wine, I'm sure that anyone who actually
>> drinks brandy would disagree with your classification.
>>
> It's a spirit and contains all of the heads and tails that distillers like
> to get removed. Fusel oils and freinds can be pretty bad in high
> concentrations.
> If you do this with apple cider the New England term is apple jack, not
> apple brandy.
>
I have never tried freezing wine before but it sounds interesting. I have 6
gallons of dry 2003 Vidal with a TA >1.05%. The wine is very nice but is
undrinkable due to the high acid.
Are there other risks in freezing the wine as with distilling such as
concentrating the poison alcohols?

> I have never tried freezing wine before but it sounds interesting. I have
6 > gallons of dry 2003 Vidal with a TA >1.05%. The wine is very nice but
> is undrinkable due to the high acid.

Freezing probably won't help that- it's more likely to concentrate the acid.

> Are there other risks in freezing the wine as with distilling such as
> concentrating the poison alcohols?

Yes- freezing or "jacking" the wine will concentrate everything, good and
bad.

Actually, putting wine in the freezer is a means of concentrating the
alcohol. It's done to make Applejack. Normally a wide-mouthed flexible
(plastic?) container is used. There will be a sheet of ice formed on the
top; this will be lowest in alcohol. The ice is skimmed off (and drunk?),
and the remainder is allowed to re-freeze. The process is completed and the
slush skimmed off each time. The remainder can be quite potent as it is
highest in ac, since alcohol freezes at a lower temperature than water.
"Rob" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Does anyone know a formula to calculate the freezing temperature of
> wine given the alcohol content? Or at least a good,
> hang-your-hat-on-it-and-save-the-marriage-avoiding-a-broken-carboy rule
> of thumb? I've looked a little for a water/alcohol freezing phase
> diagram, and haven't found anything.
>
> It's certainly not getting cold enough during my cold-soaks this year
> to worry about it, but in future years, I want to know what to be ready
> for.
>
> Rob
>
>

green truck wrote:
> Actually, putting wine in the freezer is a means of concentrating the
> alcohol. It's done to make Applejack. Normally a wide-mouthed flexible
> (plastic?) container is used. There will be a sheet of ice formed on the
> top; this will be lowest in alcohol. The ice is skimmed off (and drunk?),
> and the remainder is allowed to re-freeze. The process is completed and the
> slush skimmed off each time. The remainder can be quite potent as it is
> highest in ac, since alcohol freezes at a lower temperature than water.
> "Rob" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>
>>Does anyone know a formula to calculate the freezing temperature of
>>wine given the alcohol content? Or at least a good,
>>hang-your-hat-on-it-and-save-the-marriage-avoiding-a-broken-carboy rule
>>of thumb? I've looked a little for a water/alcohol freezing phase
>>diagram, and haven't found anything.
>>
>>It's certainly not getting cold enough during my cold-soaks this year
>>to worry about it, but in future years, I want to know what to be ready
>>for.
>>
>>Rob
>>
>>
>
>
>

please be aware that freeze distillation is illegal and could get you
into trouble with the law. for small scale stuff i would imagine its not
going to be a problem, but on a commercial side there is a vast
difference between making wine and distilling spirits. even the places
around here that make and sell port style wines make the wine and then
purchase spirits to fortify.