When the alcohol is that high, what's your strategy with ML? I've got a
Petit Sirah this year that's around 16% and the ML seems stuck midway.
I've tried to restart it with the Hansen strain that should work for
high alcohol (CH16?) but no luck so far.

Thx,

Pp

Greg Boyd wrote:
Jerry , we had or Cab come out at 16.9 also , and our petite sirah
come out
at 16.6 .
High alcohol , but yet it is still balanced and what a fruit bomb it
is . In
oak now and getting better every week .
Greg
"Jerry DeAngelis" wrote in message
ink.net...
Pp

I use both of Margolit's books, and do use his equation when
looking for
a ball park expectation of PA.

As an aside, our Cabernet Sauvignon alcohol this year is 16.59%.
That
was a shocker. For those who are interested, it was fermented
using ICV
D21 yeast.

Regards

Jerry

When the alcohol is that high, what's your strategy with ML? I've got a
Petit Sirah this year that's around 16% and the ML seems stuck midway.
I've tried to restart it with the Hansen strain that should work for
high alcohol (CH16?) but no luck so far.

Thx,

Pp

Greg Boyd wrote:
Jerry , we had or Cab come out at 16.9 also , and our petite sirah
come out
at 16.6 .
High alcohol , but yet it is still balanced and what a fruit bomb it
is . In
oak now and getting better every week .
Greg
"Jerry DeAngelis" wrote in message
ink.net...
Pp

I use both of Margolit's books, and do use his equation when
looking for
a ball park expectation of PA.

As an aside, our Cabernet Sauvignon alcohol this year is 16.59%.
That
was a shocker. For those who are interested, it was fermented
using ICV
D21 yeast.

Regards

Jerry

Pp

That is an interesting and challenging conundrum in winemaking. There
are Lactobacillus that can develop in dessert wines of up to 18 or 20%
alcohol (Peynaud, E., Knowing and Making Wine, Wiley Interscience, NY,
1984). I have not been able to find them commercially.

When we were faced with an MLF that stopped at 60% completion last year,
we allowed the wine to age in that condition, evaluated it for taste and
other sensory aspects, and decided that we actually liked it as it was.
We then used Lysozyme to kill things, fined and filtered the wine, and
bottled it. It is still aging at the moment, and will not be available
to drink for another 6-9 months or so.

We are also considering making red wines that do not undergo malolactic
fermentation at all, and in some cases do not see, any or at the most a
bit of oak. We have a small test batch of Syrah that is in stainless,
and will stay there for another 6-8 months. Its total contact with oak
is five 1.5" x 10" x 1/4 " daisy chained ministaves hung off the bung.
(French oak, medium toast).

All of the consequences of hi Brix wines are getting tiresome for us.
Yes, the wines still come out fine thus far, but we are becoming more
and more convinced that there is no real need to allow fruit to hang
until Brix levels reach 26, 27 or 28 or higher. (A late harvest, hot
weather Zinfandel at a colleague's winery was 36 Brix immediately after
crush!) We are determined to pick sooner, and to make wines that start
fermentation at 23 -25 Brix if at all possible given weather
considerations, and the picking crews available to us. If successful, I
think we will have fewer worries about stuck fermentations of all types,
wine that is reduced, and wine that is so high in alcohol that a warning
label should be included that says " do not get near an open flame".

I don't think that this long response necessarily answered your
questions, but perhaps it offered a bit of grist for the winemakers
press. I am very interested in other winemakers thoughts about these
high alcohol wines.

Regards

Jerry

Jerry DeAngelis wrote:

We are determined to pick sooner, and to make wines that start
fermentation at 23 -25 Brix if at all possible given weather
considerations, and the picking crews available to us. If successful, I
think we will have fewer worries about stuck fermentations of all types,
wine that is reduced, and wine that is so high in alcohol that a warning
label should be included that says " do not get near an open flame".

I don't think that this long response necessarily answered your
questions, but perhaps it offered a bit of grist for the winemakers
press. I am very interested in other winemakers thoughts about these
high alcohol wines.

Regards

Jerry

I agree with you and Dr. Richard Smart agrees with you. I do not have this
problem with my grapes grown in the Mid Atlantic but sometimes I buy grapes
from the Central Valley of California. I have found that a blend of
Eastern grapes and the Central Valley grapes makes the best wine.

Jerry DeAngelis wrote:

We are determined to pick sooner, and to make wines that start
fermentation at 23 -25 Brix if at all possible given weather
considerations, and the picking crews available to us. If successful, I
think we will have fewer worries about stuck fermentations of all types,
wine that is reduced, and wine that is so high in alcohol that a warning
label should be included that says " do not get near an open flame".

I don't think that this long response necessarily answered your
questions, but perhaps it offered a bit of grist for the winemakers
press. I am very interested in other winemakers thoughts about these
high alcohol wines.

Regards

Jerry

I agree with you and Dr. Richard Smart agrees with you. I do not have this
problem with my grapes grown in the Mid Atlantic but sometimes I buy grapes
from the Central Valley of California. I have found that a blend of
Eastern grapes and the Central Valley grapes makes the best wine.

Jerry

Comments interspersed:

snip

There is nothing wrong with your hydrometers, or perhaps your references.
There seems to be something wrong with how you are using the data, and
your results.

Maybe I wasn't clear. I quite_literally_make no calculations what-so-
ever when doing sugar/alcohol management. All of my numbers are
lifted_directly_from my multi-scale hydrometers. No calculations, no
mistakes. If my hydrometers are right then I am right. If my hydrometers
are wrong then I am wrong. Doing it this way makes life very simple for
the "little guy". How about this. When you go to that symposium, pick up
a triple scale hydrometer. That way you can see what the "other half" is
using and it will be helpful when reading Berry since that is what he used.
Between now and then, visit Jack Keller's site. It is a very much
modernized version of the kind of thing that Berry used to do. He also
uses the 0.55 conversion factor and the chart on his hydrometer page
is a fair representation of the numbers you will find on that triple scale
hydrometer when you get it.


I posit that both you (I do not mean this in a pejorative or nasty sense
in any way), are calculating using equations that may be the best
available, but cannot take into account all of the factors effecting PA.

Once again, I don't_do_calculations. I simply trust my hydrometers.
The folks who designed my hydrometers did all the calculating for me,
so all I have to do is read the numbers. If these are_not_ the best that
modern science can provide, I sure wish modern science would get busy
and come out with a "new and improved" version !!

snip

Too many variables to calculate anything but a ballpark.

snip

The results may be precise, but they are not necessarily accurate.

snip

The systems were too
complex.

If the available hydrometers are_not_the solution for the little guy, what
exactly_do_ you recommend ??

snip

Frederick

Jerry

Comments interspersed:

snip

There is nothing wrong with your hydrometers, or perhaps your references.
There seems to be something wrong with how you are using the data, and
your results.

Maybe I wasn't clear. I quite_literally_make no calculations what-so-
ever when doing sugar/alcohol management. All of my numbers are
lifted_directly_from my multi-scale hydrometers. No calculations, no
mistakes. If my hydrometers are right then I am right. If my hydrometers
are wrong then I am wrong. Doing it this way makes life very simple for
the "little guy". How about this. When you go to that symposium, pick up
a triple scale hydrometer. That way you can see what the "other half" is
using and it will be helpful when reading Berry since that is what he used.
Between now and then, visit Jack Keller's site. It is a very much
modernized version of the kind of thing that Berry used to do. He also
uses the 0.55 conversion factor and the chart on his hydrometer page
is a fair representation of the numbers you will find on that triple scale
hydrometer when you get it.


I posit that both you (I do not mean this in a pejorative or nasty sense
in any way), are calculating using equations that may be the best
available, but cannot take into account all of the factors effecting PA.

Once again, I don't_do_calculations. I simply trust my hydrometers.
The folks who designed my hydrometers did all the calculating for me,
so all I have to do is read the numbers. If these are_not_ the best that
modern science can provide, I sure wish modern science would get busy
and come out with a "new and improved" version !!

snip

Too many variables to calculate anything but a ballpark.

snip

The results may be precise, but they are not necessarily accurate.

snip

The systems were too
complex.

If the available hydrometers are_not_the solution for the little guy, what
exactly_do_ you recommend ??

snip

Frederick

Frederick

I have a number of triple scale hydrometers and use them regularly.

snip

If the available hydrometers are_not_the solution for the little guy,
what
exactly_do_ you recommend ??

If I were to suggest a course of action to a home winemaker it would be
to use Margolit's 0.57 factor and the following equation:

% Potential Alcohol(v/v) = 0.57 x Brix.

The factor you suggest (0.55), could also be used. This equation, no
matter what number, or hydrometer is used, has a number of limitations,
and only provides an estimate for a number of reasons: Various studies
have shown that the number ranges from 0.55-0.60. (references
available). Some reasons a The non-sugar solids which are part of
the must's Brix, depend on the grape variety, growing region and state
of maturity of the fruit. Less ripe grapes have higher non-sugar
solids, and afford a lower alcohol/Brix ratio. Additionally, ethanol
yield depends on fermentation temperature - higher temps lower yield -
and evaporation of ethanol.

Prior to making wine commercially, we started as home winemakers. We
now do both as we are slightly daft. Thus I am able to lead two lives
relative to winemaking. I am not actually recommending anything, but I
am suggesting that all of this fretting about PA is more an intellectual
exercise than a practical reality for many winemakers - both
professional home and professional commercial (I believe that anyone who
takes winemaking seriously is, or at least can be, a professional.)

While home winemakers may like to know the alcohol content of a wine
they are making, it makes little difference in the scheme of things,
vis-a-vis taxes, labels, etc. If a wine is 13%, 14,% or 15.5% alcohol,
great as long as the wine is balanced, and a good example of that
particular varietal. Commercial operations are different in that they
must know the alcohol content in order to calculate taxes, make labels,
and be ready for any site visit from those folks who take these things
seriously - state and federal agents. From that perspective, home and
commercial winemakers are like the Chicken and Pig commenting about a
ham and egg breakfast - one is interested, but the other is really
involved, as the consequences are different for both.

For those who must know the final alcohol content of their wine - or
those who just want to know - there are at least 6 laboratory methods
available to accomplish this. Ebulliometry (for wines with 2%
residual sugar corrective measures must also be taken), Gas
Chromatography and Determination by Hydrometric Analysis (essentially
distillation and measuring S. Gravity) are three are offered by many
laboratories, and which are not necessarily expensive to have done.

Regards

Jerry

Frederick

I have a number of triple scale hydrometers and use them regularly.

snip

If the available hydrometers are_not_the solution for the little guy,
what
exactly_do_ you recommend ??

If I were to suggest a course of action to a home winemaker it would be
to use Margolit's 0.57 factor and the following equation:

% Potential Alcohol(v/v) = 0.57 x Brix.

The factor you suggest (0.55), could also be used. This equation, no
matter what number, or hydrometer is used, has a number of limitations,
and only provides an estimate for a number of reasons: Various studies
have shown that the number ranges from 0.55-0.60. (references
available). Some reasons a The non-sugar solids which are part of
the must's Brix, depend on the grape variety, growing region and state
of maturity of the fruit. Less ripe grapes have higher non-sugar
solids, and afford a lower alcohol/Brix ratio. Additionally, ethanol
yield depends on fermentation temperature - higher temps lower yield -
and evaporation of ethanol.

Prior to making wine commercially, we started as home winemakers. We
now do both as we are slightly daft. Thus I am able to lead two lives
relative to winemaking. I am not actually recommending anything, but I
am suggesting that all of this fretting about PA is more an intellectual
exercise than a practical reality for many winemakers - both
professional home and professional commercial (I believe that anyone who
takes winemaking seriously is, or at least can be, a professional.)

While home winemakers may like to know the alcohol content of a wine
they are making, it makes little difference in the scheme of things,
vis-a-vis taxes, labels, etc. If a wine is 13%, 14,% or 15.5% alcohol,
great as long as the wine is balanced, and a good example of that
particular varietal. Commercial operations are different in that they
must know the alcohol content in order to calculate taxes, make labels,
and be ready for any site visit from those folks who take these things
seriously - state and federal agents. From that perspective, home and
commercial winemakers are like the Chicken and Pig commenting about a
ham and egg breakfast - one is interested, but the other is really
involved, as the consequences are different for both.

For those who must know the final alcohol content of their wine - or
those who just want to know - there are at least 6 laboratory methods
available to accomplish this. Ebulliometry (for wines with 2%
residual sugar corrective measures must also be taken), Gas
Chromatography and Determination by Hydrometric Analysis (essentially
distillation and measuring S. Gravity) are three are offered by many
laboratories, and which are not necessarily expensive to have done.

Regards

Jerry

Jerry

Does your triple scale hydrometer have a PA scale on it ? If so, do the
PA numbers that appear there use the 0.57 conversion factor that you
recommend ? If so, where can I get one ?? TIA

Frederick

"Jerry DeAngelis" wrote in message
ink.net...
Frederick

I have a number of triple scale hydrometers and use them regularly.

snip

If the available hydrometers are_not_the solution for the little guy,
what
exactly_do_ you recommend ??

If I were to suggest a course of action to a home winemaker it would be to
use Margolit's 0.57 factor and the following equation:

% Potential Alcohol(v/v) = 0.57 x Brix.

The factor you suggest (0.55), could also be used. This equation, no
matter what number, or hydrometer is used, has a number of limitations,
and only provides an estimate for a number of reasons: Various studies
have shown that the number ranges from 0.55-0.60. (references available).
Some reasons a The non-sugar solids which are part of the must's Brix,
depend on the grape variety, growing region and state of maturity of the
fruit. Less ripe grapes have higher non-sugar solids, and afford a lower
alcohol/Brix ratio. Additionally, ethanol yield depends on fermentation
temperature - higher temps lower yield - and evaporation of ethanol.

Prior to making wine commercially, we started as home winemakers. We now
do both as we are slightly daft. Thus I am able to lead two lives
relative to winemaking. I am not actually recommending anything, but I am
suggesting that all of this fretting about PA is more an intellectual
exercise than a practical reality for many winemakers - both professional
home and professional commercial (I believe that anyone who takes
winemaking seriously is, or at least can be, a professional.)

While home winemakers may like to know the alcohol content of a wine they
are making, it makes little difference in the scheme of things, vis-a-vis
taxes, labels, etc. If a wine is 13%, 14,% or 15.5% alcohol, great as
long as the wine is balanced, and a good example of that particular
varietal. Commercial operations are different in that they must know the
alcohol content in order to calculate taxes, make labels, and be ready for
any site visit from those folks who take these things seriously - state
and federal agents. From that perspective, home and commercial winemakers
are like the Chicken and Pig commenting about a ham and egg breakfast -
one is interested, but the other is really involved, as the consequences
are different for both.

For those who must know the final alcohol content of their wine - or those
who just want to know - there are at least 6 laboratory methods available
to accomplish this. Ebulliometry (for wines with 2% residual sugar
corrective measures must also be taken), Gas Chromatography and
Determination by Hydrometric Analysis (essentially distillation and
measuring S. Gravity) are three are offered by many laboratories, and
which are not necessarily expensive to have done.

Regards

Jerry

Jerry

Does your triple scale hydrometer have a PA scale on it ? If so, do the
PA numbers that appear there use the 0.57 conversion factor that you
recommend ? If so, where can I get one ?? TIA

Frederick

"Jerry DeAngelis" wrote in message
ink.net...
Frederick

I have a number of triple scale hydrometers and use them regularly.

snip

If the available hydrometers are_not_the solution for the little guy,
what
exactly_do_ you recommend ??

If I were to suggest a course of action to a home winemaker it would be to
use Margolit's 0.57 factor and the following equation:

% Potential Alcohol(v/v) = 0.57 x Brix.

The factor you suggest (0.55), could also be used. This equation, no
matter what number, or hydrometer is used, has a number of limitations,
and only provides an estimate for a number of reasons: Various studies
have shown that the number ranges from 0.55-0.60. (references available).
Some reasons a The non-sugar solids which are part of the must's Brix,
depend on the grape variety, growing region and state of maturity of the
fruit. Less ripe grapes have higher non-sugar solids, and afford a lower
alcohol/Brix ratio. Additionally, ethanol yield depends on fermentation
temperature - higher temps lower yield - and evaporation of ethanol.

Prior to making wine commercially, we started as home winemakers. We now
do both as we are slightly daft. Thus I am able to lead two lives
relative to winemaking. I am not actually recommending anything, but I am
suggesting that all of this fretting about PA is more an intellectual
exercise than a practical reality for many winemakers - both professional
home and professional commercial (I believe that anyone who takes
winemaking seriously is, or at least can be, a professional.)

While home winemakers may like to know the alcohol content of a wine they
are making, it makes little difference in the scheme of things, vis-a-vis
taxes, labels, etc. If a wine is 13%, 14,% or 15.5% alcohol, great as
long as the wine is balanced, and a good example of that particular
varietal. Commercial operations are different in that they must know the
alcohol content in order to calculate taxes, make labels, and be ready for
any site visit from those folks who take these things seriously - state
and federal agents. From that perspective, home and commercial winemakers
are like the Chicken and Pig commenting about a ham and egg breakfast -
one is interested, but the other is really involved, as the consequences
are different for both.

For those who must know the final alcohol content of their wine - or those
who just want to know - there are at least 6 laboratory methods available
to accomplish this. Ebulliometry (for wines with 2% residual sugar
corrective measures must also be taken), Gas Chromatography and
Determination by Hydrometric Analysis (essentially distillation and
measuring S. Gravity) are three are offered by many laboratories, and
which are not necessarily expensive to have done.

Regards

Jerry

Jerry DeAngelis wrote:



Thus I am able to lead two lives
relative to winemaking. I am not actually recommending anything, but I
am suggesting that all of this fretting about PA is more an intellectual
exercise than a practical reality for many winemakers

VERY much agree.

While home winemakers may like to know the alcohol content of a wine
they are making, it makes little difference in the scheme of things,
vis-a-vis taxes, labels, etc. If a wine is 13%, 14,% or 15.5% alcohol,
great as long as the wine is balanced, and a good example of that
particular varietal.

Agree again - excellent.

For those who must know the final alcohol content of their wine - or
those who just want to know - there are at least 6 laboratory methods
available to accomplish this. Ebulliometry (for wines with 2%
residual sugar corrective measures must also be taken), Gas
Chromatography and Determination by Hydrometric Analysis (essentially
distillation and measuring S. Gravity) are three are offered by many
laboratories, and which are not necessarily expensive to have done.

Well stated.
Excellent post.

Jerry DeAngelis wrote:



Thus I am able to lead two lives
relative to winemaking. I am not actually recommending anything, but I
am suggesting that all of this fretting about PA is more an intellectual
exercise than a practical reality for many winemakers

VERY much agree.

While home winemakers may like to know the alcohol content of a wine
they are making, it makes little difference in the scheme of things,
vis-a-vis taxes, labels, etc. If a wine is 13%, 14,% or 15.5% alcohol,
great as long as the wine is balanced, and a good example of that
particular varietal.

Agree again - excellent.

For those who must know the final alcohol content of their wine - or
those who just want to know - there are at least 6 laboratory methods
available to accomplish this. Ebulliometry (for wines with 2%
residual sugar corrective measures must also be taken), Gas
Chromatography and Determination by Hydrometric Analysis (essentially
distillation and measuring S. Gravity) are three are offered by many
laboratories, and which are not necessarily expensive to have done.

Well stated.
Excellent post.

Paul

Thank you.

In reading your comments I noticed that I inadvertently typed the ""
character when discussing Ebulliometry.

That should have read ".....with 2% residual sugar corrective measures
must also be taken)....."

Sorry for any concerns this may have caused anyone.

Regards

Jerry






,
"Paul E. Lehmann" wrote in message
...
Jerry DeAngelis wrote:



Thus I am able to lead two lives
relative to winemaking. I am not actually recommending anything, but
I
am suggesting that all of this fretting about PA is more an
intellectual
exercise than a practical reality for many winemakers

VERY much agree.

While home winemakers may like to know the alcohol content of a wine
they are making, it makes little difference in the scheme of things,
vis-a-vis taxes, labels, etc. If a wine is 13%, 14,% or 15.5%
alcohol,
great as long as the wine is balanced, and a good example of that
particular varietal.

Agree again - excellent.

For those who must know the final alcohol content of their wine - or
those who just want to know - there are at least 6 laboratory
methods
available to accomplish this. Ebulliometry (for wines with 2%
residual sugar corrective measures must also be taken), Gas
Chromatography and Determination by Hydrometric Analysis
(essentially
distillation and measuring S. Gravity) are three are offered by many
laboratories, and which are not necessarily expensive to have done.

Well stated.
Excellent post.

Frederick

You are missing my point. In actuality, one can use any factor between
0.55 and 0.60 as that is the inherent, & absolute limitation of the
methodology. If one wants more accurate results, one needs have
samples analyzed in a laboratory.

Regards

Jerry


"frederick ploegman" wrote in message
...
Jerry

Does your triple scale hydrometer have a PA scale on it ? If so, do
the
PA numbers that appear there use the 0.57 conversion factor that you
recommend ? If so, where can I get one ?? TIA

Frederick