I have just a few red wines under my belt (in more ways than one) and
I have a question on pressing. I have heard that it is best to press
when 'the cap falls'. What does this look like? I just pressed a
cabernet where the cap was lethargic and did not rise very much during
the day. But it was still up. Is is supposed to actually fall into
the wine so you have no cap? At what point is there danger? When my
last cabernet was 'lethargic', I was really nervous. I don't think I
could have waited any longer. What does it look like and how do I
protect the wine when it is necessary.

Just a beginner wanting to make magnificant wine, I know I can now,
but haven't yet.

Dan

"Dan Emerson" wrote in message
om...
I have just a few red wines under my belt (in more ways than one) and
I have a question on pressing. I have heard that it is best to press
when 'the cap falls'. What does this look like? I just pressed a
cabernet where the cap was lethargic and did not rise very much during
the day. But it was still up. Is is supposed to actually fall into
the wine so you have no cap? At what point is there danger? When my
last cabernet was 'lethargic', I was really nervous. I don't think I
could have waited any longer. What does it look like and how do I
protect the wine when it is necessary.

Just a beginner wanting to make magnificant wine, I know I can now,
but haven't yet.

Dan

Dan,
I think pressing "when the cap falls" is a poor criteria. Of course, the
cap usually falls soon after the sugar is gone, but it is sometimes
difficult to estimate the state of the cap. Pressing "when the sugar is
nearly gone" seems like a better method because sugar can be easily
estimated with a hydrometer.
lum

"Dan Emerson" wrote in message
om...
I have just a few red wines under my belt (in more ways than one) and
I have a question on pressing. I have heard that it is best to press
when 'the cap falls'. What does this look like?

When the cap falls, the surface of the fermenter will be clear juice. I
have rarely observed this phenomenon, and concur with Lum that it's risky to
wait for that point. Unless you're conducting extended maceration (and know
what you're doing), you should press at or near dryness.

Tom S

Tom has a good point. In order for the cap to "fall", the cap must be
fairly free of trapped CO2 bubbles. I practice extended maceration and use
cap fall as the point where I protect the headspace with Argon (you could
use N as well). As Tom pointed out, you may not observe cap fall as it
depends on your cap managment practice. I practice rack and return with a
good stirring in of the cap twice a day through the duration of primary
fermentation. This allows me to see the point of cap fall easily since I
purge the cap of trapped gas regularly. If you decide to try extended
maceration, make sure you protect your wine with Argon or Nitrogen in a
covered container. Also, aeration during primary fermentation is critical
if you are going to use extended maceration since H2S problems can become
mercaptan problems during EM.

Cheers and Good Luck!!
Aaron

"Tom S" wrote in message
om...

"Dan Emerson" wrote in message
om...
I have just a few red wines under my belt (in more ways than one) and
I have a question on pressing. I have heard that it is best to press
when 'the cap falls'. What does this look like?

When the cap falls, the surface of the fermenter will be clear juice. I
have rarely observed this phenomenon, and concur with Lum that it's risky
to
wait for that point. Unless you're conducting extended maceration (and
know
what you're doing), you should press at or near dryness.

Tom S

The last few years I have been trying to extend my maceration and waiting
until the cap truly falls. I have been letting it go for 20+ days. I have
been getting glorious color extraction and have been happy with the wines
when young (18 mo's) but they have not been keeping well beyond 2-3 years.
I wonder if this is because I left them too long.

I have not been using inert gas but I have been laying a layer of sarane
wrap over the surface to keep air contact to a minimum when the cap starts
dropping. Like I say, no sign of oxidation when it becomes drinkable but it
has not been keeping well.

Just a comment. Any opinions would be welcome.

Ray

"Dan Emerson" wrote in message
om...
I have just a few red wines under my belt (in more ways than one) and
I have a question on pressing. I have heard that it is best to press
when 'the cap falls'. What does this look like? I just pressed a
cabernet where the cap was lethargic and did not rise very much during
the day. But it was still up. Is is supposed to actually fall into
the wine so you have no cap? At what point is there danger? When my
last cabernet was 'lethargic', I was really nervous. I don't think I
could have waited any longer. What does it look like and how do I
protect the wine when it is necessary.

Just a beginner wanting to make magnificant wine, I know I can now,
but haven't yet.

Dan

When you say they haven't been keeping well, what do you mean?


"Ray" wrote in message
...
The last few years I have been trying to extend my maceration and waiting
until the cap truly falls. I have been letting it go for 20+ days. I
have
been getting glorious color extraction and have been happy with the wines
when young (18 mo's) but they have not been keeping well beyond 2-3 years.
I wonder if this is because I left them too long.

I have not been using inert gas but I have been laying a layer of sarane
wrap over the surface to keep air contact to a minimum when the cap starts
dropping. Like I say, no sign of oxidation when it becomes drinkable but
it
has not been keeping well.

Just a comment. Any opinions would be welcome.

Ray

"Dan Emerson" wrote in message
om...
I have just a few red wines under my belt (in more ways than one) and
I have a question on pressing. I have heard that it is best to press
when 'the cap falls'. What does this look like? I just pressed a
cabernet where the cap was lethargic and did not rise very much during
the day. But it was still up. Is is supposed to actually fall into
the wine so you have no cap? At what point is there danger? When my
last cabernet was 'lethargic', I was really nervous. I don't think I
could have waited any longer. What does it look like and how do I
protect the wine when it is necessary.

Just a beginner wanting to make magnificant wine, I know I can now,
but haven't yet.

Dan

"Ray" wrote in message .. .
The last few years I have been trying to extend my maceration and waiting
until the cap truly falls. I have been letting it go for 20+ days. I have
been getting glorious color extraction and have been happy with the wines
when young (18 mo's) but they have not been keeping well beyond 2-3 years.
I wonder if this is because I left them too long.

I have not been using inert gas but I have been laying a layer of sarane
wrap over the surface to keep air contact to a minimum when the cap starts
dropping. Like I say, no sign of oxidation when it becomes drinkable but it
has not been keeping well.

Just a comment. Any opinions would be welcome.

Ray


I have one theory. One of the reasons extended maceration is used is
to soften a wine. The increased time on the skins actually helps the
tannins polymerize into longer chains which settle out more quickly.

If it is over-done, you could be left with little or no tannins. This
is fine for an early drinking wine, but tannin can help a wine age
gracefully.

Andy

"Ray" wrote in message
...
The last few years I have been trying to extend my maceration and waiting
until the cap truly falls. I have been letting it go for 20+ days. I
have
been getting glorious color extraction and have been happy with the wines
when young (18 mo's) but they have not been keeping well beyond 2-3 years.
I wonder if this is because I left them too long.

I have not been using inert gas but I have been laying a layer of sarane
wrap over the surface to keep air contact to a minimum when the cap starts
dropping. Like I say, no sign of oxidation when it becomes drinkable but
it
has not been keeping well.

Just a comment. Any opinions would be welcome.

Could be the structure of the wine was never appropriate for long term
aging. If the pH was on the high side and/or you used minimal SO2 that
could account for the short aging potential.

Tom S

If you are punching down your wine the skins should be under the level of
the juice after each punch down. When no more CO2 is being released the cap
won't so much as 'fall' as it will stop rising out of the must. This will
coincide with hydrometer showing no more sugar to ferment. I've been making
Cabernet and Merlot and I usually press at about 2 weeks with plenty of
tannins, but not too much.

Brian

"Tom S" wrote in message
om...

"Dan Emerson" wrote in message
om...
I have just a few red wines under my belt (in more ways than one) and
I have a question on pressing. I have heard that it is best to press
when 'the cap falls'. What does this look like?

When the cap falls, the surface of the fermenter will be clear juice. I
have rarely observed this phenomenon, and concur with Lum that it's risky
to
wait for that point. Unless you're conducting extended maceration (and
know
what you're doing), you should press at or near dryness.

Tom S

Hi Andy,

I've never heard of too long a maceration resulting in no tannins? Have you
experienced this yourself or can you give me a reference? I believe some
very fine CA cabernets and blend producers utilize upwards of 35-40 days of
extended maceration with plenty of tannins remaining in the wine.

CHEERS!

Aaron


"JEP" wrote in message
om...
"Ray" wrote in message
.. .
The last few years I have been trying to extend my maceration and
waiting
until the cap truly falls. I have been letting it go for 20+ days. I
have
been getting glorious color extraction and have been happy with the
wines
when young (18 mo's) but they have not been keeping well beyond 2-3
years.
I wonder if this is because I left them too long.

I have not been using inert gas but I have been laying a layer of sarane
wrap over the surface to keep air contact to a minimum when the cap
starts
dropping. Like I say, no sign of oxidation when it becomes drinkable
but it
has not been keeping well.

Just a comment. Any opinions would be welcome.

Ray


I have one theory. One of the reasons extended maceration is used is
to soften a wine. The increased time on the skins actually helps the
tannins polymerize into longer chains which settle out more quickly.

If it is over-done, you could be left with little or no tannins. This
is fine for an early drinking wine, but tannin can help a wine age
gracefully.

Andy

Ray,

when young (18 mo's) but they have not been keeping well beyond 2-3 years.
I wonder if this is because I left them too long.
Just a comment. Any opinions would be welcome.

What quality of fruit are you using? What's your pH typically? I'm
sure you know that without using fruit that can handle extended
maceration (i.e. high quantity of ripe tannins, fruit character, etc)
there's no point in EM. Have you noticed the wines' tannin profiles
softening considerably during EM? Both the qualitative and
quantitative qualities of phenols play a huge role in the success of
EM.

Ben

"Aaron Puhala" wrote in message ...
Hi Andy,

I've never heard of too long a maceration resulting in no tannins? Have you
experienced this yourself or can you give me a reference? I believe some
very fine CA cabernets and blend producers utilize upwards of 35-40 days of
extended maceration with plenty of tannins remaining in the wine.

CHEERS!

Aaron


Yes, but they are starting with grapes that contain higher tannin
levels than (at least I) get in my grapes shipped from California.

Who are the wineries doing the extended maceration that long? The
wineries I know that use (or used) extended maceration tend to be on
the early drinking side rather than the long lasters. Of course, in
general, new world producers have that reputation anyway.

Extended maceration promotes polymerization of the tannins resulting
in a softer wine. UC Davis literature includes this comment concerning
extended maceration :

"The surface of the skin cells may additionally
provide a nucleating center for the precipitation or polymerization of
compounds,decreasing their concentration in the wine."

I have also experienced this myself when doing extended maceration.
The tannin level may increase over the short term, but then the
tannins soften and round out. If you start with a wine that has little
tannin to begin with and employ extended maceration, this could cause
a further reduction of the already low tannin level.

There is also some indication (in other references)that extended
maceration can reduce the acid content of the must due to an increase
in the potassium extracted from the skins causing more acid to form
bitartrate which precipitates out.

BTW, UC Davis appears to believe that extended maceration does nothing
to increase the extraction from the skins:

"Several studies have shown that both extended maceration and cold
soak do not really impact the level of skin components in the wine, as
the principle factor enhancing extraction is high temperature."


Andy

I should clarify. When I say upwards of 35-40 I am actually talking about
maceration time which would include say 5-10 days for fermentation with
actual EXTENDED maceration of 20-30 days. Some of the longest "macerators"
that I am aware of a

USA:
Opus
Mondavi
Signorello
Luna

ABROAD:
Artessa
Arboleda / Caliterra
Chateau Clinet
Château Prieuré-Lichine
Other Bordeaux (I believe extended maceration is traditional practice in
Bordeaux)


Mondavi uses long maceration at elevated temperatures.
Here is an interesting article on Mondavi's new Cabernet facility...
http://www.practicalwinery.com/janfeb01p21.htm

Excerpt: "Extended maceration (35 days on average) at warm temperatures
(83°F) enhances further extraction
of tannin substrates from the grape skins while hastening the reactions of
polymerization. This results in
substantial yet approachable wines with enhanced color stability." Also
mentioned in the article is Halan Estate which uses the same type of large
oak primary fermentors and I imaging they use a long maceration time as
well.

You are absolutely correct in your implication that extended maceration is
best employed only when very good fruit is available such that available
extract is high. I also agree with you that extraction is primarily a
matter of temperature. I think there is much debate, however, on the
benefits/merit of extended maceration. I think the benefits of extended
maceration has more to do with modifying the extract rather than increasing
the extract. Take Mondavi as an example. Their new Cabernet facility uses
oak fermentation tanks which allow the maceration temperature to be kept
higher through the duration of skin contact. This is a direct departure
from the direction they insisted on for Opus, namely stainless steel
fermentation tanks. Both Mondavi and Opus practice extended maceration at
elevated (~80-85F) temperatures but the difference lies in the type of
fermentor. Oak vessels also "breath" allowing very slow oxygenation of the
wine during maceration. StaVin has some interesting information on their
website about the role of oxygen and oak in wine tannin and color
stabilization. It appears that oxygen action on the wine produces small
amounts of acetaldehyde which can cause crosslinking reactions in
tannin-anthocyanin complexes helping to keep them in solution. StaVin
claims that certain extractable compounds from toasted oak can also cause
these crosslinking reactions. They also claim that in the absence of oxygen
and oak extractables, polymerization of tannins in a reductive environment
will lead to precipitation of tannin and color constituents.

So much to learn so little time!!

CHEERS!

Aaron



"JEP" wrote in message
om...
"Aaron Puhala" wrote in message
...
Hi Andy,

I've never heard of too long a maceration resulting in no tannins? Have
you
experienced this yourself or can you give me a reference? I believe
some
very fine CA cabernets and blend producers utilize upwards of 35-40 days
of
extended maceration with plenty of tannins remaining in the wine.

CHEERS!

Aaron


Yes, but they are starting with grapes that contain higher tannin
levels than (at least I) get in my grapes shipped from California.

Who are the wineries doing the extended maceration that long? The
wineries I know that use (or used) extended maceration tend to be on
the early drinking side rather than the long lasters. Of course, in
general, new world producers have that reputation anyway.

Extended maceration promotes polymerization of the tannins resulting
in a softer wine. UC Davis literature includes this comment concerning
extended maceration :

"The surface of the skin cells may additionally
provide a nucleating center for the precipitation or polymerization of
compounds,decreasing their concentration in the wine."

I have also experienced this myself when doing extended maceration.
The tannin level may increase over the short term, but then the
tannins soften and round out. If you start with a wine that has little
tannin to begin with and employ extended maceration, this could cause
a further reduction of the already low tannin level.

There is also some indication (in other references)that extended
maceration can reduce the acid content of the must due to an increase
in the potassium extracted from the skins causing more acid to form
bitartrate which precipitates out.

BTW, UC Davis appears to believe that extended maceration does nothing
to increase the extraction from the skins:

"Several studies have shown that both extended maceration and cold
soak do not really impact the level of skin components in the wine, as
the principle factor enhancing extraction is high temperature."


Andy

"Aaron Puhala" wrote in message .. .
I should clarify. When I say upwards of 35-40 I am actually talking about
maceration time which would include say 5-10 days for fermentation with
actual EXTENDED maceration of 20-30 days. Some of the longest "macerators"
that I am aware of a

I like that term macerators. Somehow it has a nice ring to it :-)


USA:
Opus
Mondavi
Signorello
Luna

ABROAD:
Artessa
Arboleda / Caliterra
Chateau Clinet
Château Prieuré-Lichine
Other Bordeaux (I believe extended maceration is traditional practice in
Bordeaux)


I'm still waiting for a list of the "very fine CA cabernets and blend
producers". Sorry, that was a political statement better left un-said,
but I couldn't resist. I have lost a lot of respect for Mondavi,
especially since Tim Mondavi took over. IMHO, Opus is not and has
never been worth the money they get. It was nothing more than a
marketing scheme for the first "cult" wine from CA. Signorello and
Luna I really don't know much about, but that also says something to
me.

Yes, I think Bordeaux probably pratices this more than most areas but
they also have the fruit that requires it if they want to drink the
wine near term. This allows some wine makers to produce what is
refered to as "international" style wines (BTW, I don't like the term,
personally). Early drinking, fruit forward but without the staying
power of the more traditional styles.

Bordeaux from the likes of Lafite, Latour, Mouton, etc. can be tannic
monsters at release and require many years of aging to come into their
own. If they use extended maceration, I'd hate to think what the wine
is like before hand.


Andy

"JEP" wrote in message
om...
"Aaron Puhala" wrote in message
.. .
I should clarify. When I say upwards of 35-40 I am actually talking
about
maceration time which would include say 5-10 days for fermentation with
actual EXTENDED maceration of 20-30 days. Some of the longest
"macerators"
that I am aware of a

I like that term macerators. Somehow it has a nice ring to it :-)


USA:
Opus
Mondavi
Signorello
Luna

ABROAD:
Artessa
Arboleda / Caliterra
Chateau Clinet
Château Prieuré-Lichine
Other Bordeaux (I believe extended maceration is traditional practice in
Bordeaux)


I'm still waiting for a list of the "very fine CA cabernets and blend
producers". Sorry, that was a political statement better left un-said,
but I couldn't resist. I have lost a lot of respect for Mondavi,
especially since Tim Mondavi took over. IMHO, Opus is not and has
never been worth the money they get. It was nothing more than a
marketing scheme for the first "cult" wine from CA. Signorello and
Luna I really don't know much about, but that also says something to
me.

Yes, I think Bordeaux probably pratices this more than most areas but
they also have the fruit that requires it if they want to drink the
wine near term. This allows some wine makers to produce what is
refered to as "international" style wines (BTW, I don't like the term,
personally). Early drinking, fruit forward but without the staying
power of the more traditional styles.

Bordeaux from the likes of Lafite, Latour, Mouton, etc. can be tannic
monsters at release and require many years of aging to come into their
own. If they use extended maceration, I'd hate to think what the wine
is like before hand.


Andy

Are they "Tannic Monsters" because of the grape or because they use a lot of
new oak?
I don't know, but I am curious.