I have to agree that $150 for a bottle of Opus One is excessive. I do, on
the other hand, appreciate what they do considering the scale of their
operation. In my opinion it is a very good $50-$75 bottle of wine. To
balance the discussion, I believe Shafer does not practice extended
maceration at all but then again, their best are in the barrel for two years
and the bottle for one...

To be honest, this whole discussion drives me crazy! I would really like to
know what the best methods are for a given wine style but it seems that
there are many more opinions than scienctific studies. I think it would be
good for people on this newsgroup to do their own studies and report the
findings to the group.

From my own limited studies, the jury is still out on extended maceration
but I have found the following methods beneficial:
- Pump over w/ aeration + cap stirring (first pump over with venturi
aeration, saturate cap and stir well)
- ~100ppm Lysozyme immediately after crushing to inhibit wild ML
bacteria (results in cleaner aromas in my studies)
- Oak beans in primary fermentation (Medium to heavy toasted oak beans -
seems to help stabilize color and gives VERY well integrated toasty aromas)

It is a worthwhile study to determine what methods the very good to
excellent producers are using consistently. While there are methods like EM
that may just be a matter of stylistic choice and market positioning, there
are other methods that perhaps should be included in a "core set of best
practices" for high quality red winemaking.

CHEERS!

Aaron

"JEP" wrote in message
om...
"Aaron Puhala" wrote in message
.. .
I should clarify. When I say upwards of 35-40 I am actually talking
about
maceration time which would include say 5-10 days for fermentation with
actual EXTENDED maceration of 20-30 days. Some of the longest
"macerators"
that I am aware of a

I like that term macerators. Somehow it has a nice ring to it :-)


USA:
Opus
Mondavi
Signorello
Luna

ABROAD:
Artessa
Arboleda / Caliterra
Chateau Clinet
Château Prieuré-Lichine
Other Bordeaux (I believe extended maceration is traditional practice in
Bordeaux)


I'm still waiting for a list of the "very fine CA cabernets and blend
producers". Sorry, that was a political statement better left un-said,
but I couldn't resist. I have lost a lot of respect for Mondavi,
especially since Tim Mondavi took over. IMHO, Opus is not and has
never been worth the money they get. It was nothing more than a
marketing scheme for the first "cult" wine from CA. Signorello and
Luna I really don't know much about, but that also says something to
me.

Yes, I think Bordeaux probably pratices this more than most areas but
they also have the fruit that requires it if they want to drink the
wine near term. This allows some wine makers to produce what is
refered to as "international" style wines (BTW, I don't like the term,
personally). Early drinking, fruit forward but without the staying
power of the more traditional styles.

Bordeaux from the likes of Lafite, Latour, Mouton, etc. can be tannic
monsters at release and require many years of aging to come into their
own. If they use extended maceration, I'd hate to think what the wine
is like before hand.


Andy

To be honest, this whole discussion drives me crazy! I would really like to
know what the best methods are for a given wine style but it seems that
there are many more opinions than scienctific studies. I think it would be
good for people on this newsgroup to do their own studies and report the
findings to the group.

I agree! However, I think that most home winemakers simply don't go
into that kind of scientific detail. Even to conduct simple
experiments is a massive undertaking when considering the proper
scientific method (controls, reproducibility, correct analysis, etc).

If you really want to find the best methods then things get
complicated because it depends on thorough understanding of the
processes involved, the wine style (as you said), and the type and
quality of fruit. Within these dependants is a minefield of issues.
Pumping over with aeration and cap stirring may be successful for your
fruit, but to really look at best methods in general requires looking
at the fruit and wine style composition that that method was
successful for.

Still, there are some methods which seem to work more universally
(e.g. the better integration from oak bean addition during
fermentation rather than after which you mentioned). In addition to
that, there are probably many ways to get to a similar place in
winemaking. So I still agree. We can all do our small bit to further
the general knowledge of best practises etc, and maybe as a collective
whole the difference this makes will be considerable.

Ultimately though, a "core set of best practices" is an ideal which
may never be reached. (And anyway, wouldn't these be more likely to be
about practises where there is less variation in methods between
winemakers? Maceration regimes are a perfect example of something
where there *is* a lot of variance.) I think it's one of the great
things about winemaking that there are so many variables and therefore
so much there's so much variety.

Ben

"Aaron Puhala" wrote in message
...
When you say they haven't been keeping well, what do you mean?


When 1 to 2 years old they tend to be very fruity and nicely ballanced.
After 2 years they start developing an off taste. I cannot specify what
type of taste it is, just that it is not especially pleasant. It gets worse
with time. I am not sure if it is something I have done, an infection that
only shows up after 2 years, or what.

Ray



"Ray" wrote in message
...
The last few years I have been trying to extend my maceration and
waiting
until the cap truly falls. I have been letting it go for 20+ days. I
have
been getting glorious color extraction and have been happy with the
wines
when young (18 mo's) but they have not been keeping well beyond 2-3
years.
I wonder if this is because I left them too long.

I have not been using inert gas but I have been laying a layer of sarane
wrap over the surface to keep air contact to a minimum when the cap
starts
dropping. Like I say, no sign of oxidation when it becomes drinkable
but
it
has not been keeping well.

Just a comment. Any opinions would be welcome.

Ray

Replying to several posts above:

Ben, I have used Lodi Merlot, Shiraz, and Cab Sauv. and Merlot, Cab.
Franc, and Cab Sauv. from they east coast in different years. The wine does
soften through maceration and I prefer softer reds. Beyond these comments,
I am not sure.

Brian: I punch down until the cap stops rising then I just check it every
day not wanting to expose it too much. I may be getting to much air to it
but oxidation has not been a problem up to an age of 2 years.

Tom S.: Some of these wines have been high pH, high TA wines. For others
the pH was about right. I only started checking SO2 levels recently and
that may be a problem. But they do not seem to be oxidized.

Ray


"Ben Rotter" wrote in message
om...
Ray,

when young (18 mo's) but they have not been keeping well beyond 2-3
years.
I wonder if this is because I left them too long.
Just a comment. Any opinions would be welcome.

What quality of fruit are you using? What's your pH typically? I'm
sure you know that without using fruit that can handle extended
maceration (i.e. high quantity of ripe tannins, fruit character, etc)
there's no point in EM. Have you noticed the wines' tannin profiles
softening considerably during EM? Both the qualitative and
quantitative qualities of phenols play a huge role in the success of
EM.

Ben

(Ben Rotter) wrote in message . com...

I think it's one of the great
things about winemaking that there are so many variables and therefore
so much there's so much variety.

Ben


Hi Ben,

Well said.

Andy

"Paul E. Lehmann" wrote in message ...

Are they "Tannic Monsters" because of the grape or because they use a lot of
new oak?
I don't know, but I am curious.

From the grapes. The use of a lot of new oak is more prevelant in
California and Australia than it is in Bordeaux. Bordeaux tends to put
a percentage of the wine in new oak and the rest in old oak. The
percentage not only changes from house to house but from vintage to
vintage at the same house, but 40%-60% is not uncommon.

The only wines I know of that use 200% new oak come from the US
(stress, "I know of"). And yes, that is 200%. They age for a year in
new oak then transfer to another set of new barrels for additional
aging. This isn't common, but it is done.

Personally, I think they react to the grapes they get that year in
Bordeaux more so than most California wine makers who want a
consistant product from year to year. Of course they get a lot more
variability in weather from year to year in Bordeaux, so it comes from
necessity.

Of course, these are all very broad generalities. There are many
exceptions.

Andy

When fermentation is finished and the cap starts to fall is there an
optimum time I should leave the wine before I press? I can cover the
must with cellophane.

As long as you have a tank of CO2, N2, or Ar, best to use your taste buds
every few days after cap fall since you can use your inert gas to protect
the wine after each sampling. From my own experience with extended
maceration, I suggest that you press the wine no more 2 weeks after cap
fall. The riper your fruit, the longer you can go. There is a point after
cap fall where the tannins soften substantially but the wine still has good
backbone. It's more of a mid-pallate change where the wine feels smooth and
full in the mouth but still has noticeable tannin after the wine is
swallowed. Of course, to notice this change you need to be tasting the wine
on a regular basis as cap fall approaches.

As an aside - If anyone wants to see the benefits of extended maceration,
try it with Sangiovese. I was floored myself by the difference aeration and
EM makes with this variety.

CHEERS!

Aaron


"Jim" wrote in message
...
When fermentation is finished and the cap starts to fall is there an
optimum time I should leave the wine before I press? I can cover the
must with cellophane.

Thanks for the suggestions Aaron I do not have any gas, will
cellophane do the job?

"Jim" wrote in message
...
Thanks for the suggestions Aaron I do not have any gas, will
cellophane do the job?

A sheet of plastic, smoothed down against the surface of the wine and held
down with flat pieces of wood will work. You could even just pour water on
the top of the plastic to hold it in place, but you'd need to be careful not
to get it into the wine. In either case, you want to spritz the edges
lightly with sulfite to keep stuff from growing there, and wipe that area
down when you check the wine.

Tom S

Thank you for the suggestion Tom.

Tom is right on. If you don't have inert gas to work with your number one
concern will be acetobacteria in the headspace. By keeping the plastic on
tight (Before I purchased Argon tanks, I would cover with plastic and use
duct tape around the perimeter) you will minimize the amount of oxygen and
keep out bacteria sources (i.e. bugs and dust). Using sulfite as Tom
suggests will kill surface bacteria. I prefer to use a clean cloth dampened
with a strong sulfite/acid solution to wipe the inside sides and edges of
the container rather than spray but either method should work just fine.

During EM I taste my wines every few days starting about a week after cap
fall. Opening the cover this often is not an issue for me as I have Argon
to blanket after each tasting. You may want to limit your tasting to once
at cap fall, at one week and again at 2 weeks. (I typically go between 15
and 20 days of EM) To minimize the number of times you open the cover,
whenever you taste, make sure you will be able to press that day if need be.
If you haven't done EM before, what you want to look for is a change in the
mouthfeel of the wine. It will change from being obviously young and tannic
in the mouth to being softer and more full. From my experience it is more a
mid-pallate change as the tannins are still apparent after you swallow the
wine.

CHEERS and GOOD LUCK!

Aaron


"Tom S" wrote in message
m...

"Jim" wrote in message
...
Thanks for the suggestions Aaron I do not have any gas, will
cellophane do the job?

A sheet of plastic, smoothed down against the surface of the wine and held
down with flat pieces of wood will work. You could even just pour water
on
the top of the plastic to hold it in place, but you'd need to be careful
not
to get it into the wine. In either case, you want to spritz the edges
lightly with sulfite to keep stuff from growing there, and wipe that area
down when you check the wine.

Tom S