Mike Eaton ) wrote:
Our local brewshop owner suggested using ascorbic acid rather than
sorbate or potasium metabisulfate as a means to stop yeast. We've done
more than a dozen wine kits, half requiring sweetening prior to
bottleing, and have had no problems.

The ascorbic acid he had on hand was used in beer brewing, and he
recommended using the same quantities as were recommended for beer.


Hmm. Ascorbic acid, vitamin C, doesn't stop or prevent
fermentation. It will, however, oxidixe your wine if you don't have
adequate levels of SO2.

Maybe the shop owner got confused by the linguistic similarity
between sorbate and ascorbic?


Dave
************************************************** **************************
Dave Breeden

"frederick ploegman" wrote in message
...

"Art Schubert" na wrote in message
...
Sounds definitive. Thanks. I'll file it away for reference.

I'm still curious about whether a yeast with modest alcohol tolerance
can possibly do any damage if bottled at or near its alcohol limit
with residual sugar but without filtration.


Another point of view. Get a copy of C.J.J. Berry's book. You will
find that he made *lots* of sweet wines and used neither chemical
stabilizers (ie Sorbate) nor sterile filtration. (yes they were stabile
in the bottle) For many years his writings were considered definitive
by those who made "country" wines. Hard to argue with success.

He did so by running the ferments until the yeast reached it's AT
(Alcohol Toxicity point). The alcohol then acts as a poison and
kills the yeast leaving any remaining sugars as "residual". In fact,
until the advent of chemical stabilizers and sterile filtration, this was
the most commonly used method of producing sweet wines.

That's fine if you want all your wines to be sweet rocket fuel, but isn't
too useful to the winemaker who wants to produce a spätlese style of wine
(~11% alcohol, 1% RS).

Addressing the original question:
Over the years I've experimented with Côtes de Blanc in Chardonnay. I
really like the aroma and general slow, low foaming fermentations - but the
wine usually stuck off-dry. Most of the wine I tried bottling that way
found a way to re-start in the bottle - usually months or years later. It
usually didn't shoot corks, but the wine was unpleasantly cloudy, gassy and
just didn't taste right anymore. Based on those experiences I'd recommend
against trying that with your wines unless you have refrigerated storage
available.

Tom S

Sorry. Here is a copy of the question I "thought" I was answering:

copy.....................
what if one uses a yeast that stops at
12%-ish (Cote des Blancs) and starts with enough sugar to make the
P.A. higher than that. Will in-bottle ferment be prevented without
sorbate or filtering because the yeast is incapable of functioning,
even if some yeast cells remain?
end copy.................

Please note the "...without sorbate or filtering...".

I offered my answer as "another point of view", and I feel that it
addressed the question appropriately. BTW - "Spatlese" styles
tend to run closer to 4.5-6% RS. Even "Auslese" styles run
around 2-4% RS.

"Tom S" wrote in message
om...

That's fine if you want all your wines to be sweet rocket fuel, but isn't
too useful to the winemaker who wants to produce a spätlese style of wine
(~11% alcohol, 1% RS).

Tom S

I thought that odd too. I'm not sure how ascorbic acid can arrest
fermentation at any reasonable level. I'm wondering if the sweetener
was sugar or 'wine conditioner'. I have seen bottles of that and it's
usually a combination of a sugar and sorbate. I have heard of people
using ascorbic acid in place of sulfite, but do not understand the
reasoning given. I do not do that; I sweeten, filter and sorbate
whites that are going to have any residual sugar. (My filtering setup
is far from sterile, it's a minijet.)

Regards,
Joe


(David C Breeden) wrote in message ...
Mike Eaton ) wrote:
Our local brewshop owner suggested using ascorbic acid rather than
sorbate or potasium metabisulfate as a means to stop yeast. We've done
more than a dozen wine kits, half requiring sweetening prior to
bottleing, and have had no problems.

The ascorbic acid he had on hand was used in beer brewing, and he
recommended using the same quantities as were recommended for beer.


Hmm. Ascorbic acid, vitamin C, doesn't stop or prevent
fermentation. It will, however, oxidixe your wine if you don't have
adequate levels of SO2.

Maybe the shop owner got confused by the linguistic similarity
between sorbate and ascorbic?


Dave
************************************************** **************************
Dave Breeden

A lot of these ferments stop not only because of the alcohol tolerance but
through nutrient depletion.

Another reason could be the sugar composition in the juice used.

If it has high levels of fructose compared with glucose, then the ferment
will generally stop before all the fructose is consumed (most yeasts are
glucophiles). Thus you get a wine which is sweet but relatively stable.

At home, ferment recommencing is meesy and a pain in the arse, commercially
its an absolute disaster, so most winemakers want to be dead sure when
bottling sweet wines.

Rob L
"frederick ploegman" wrote in message
...
Sorry. Here is a copy of the question I "thought" I was answering:

copy.....................
what if one uses a yeast that stops at
12%-ish (Cote des Blancs) and starts with enough sugar to make the
P.A. higher than that. Will in-bottle ferment be prevented without
sorbate or filtering because the yeast is incapable of functioning,
even if some yeast cells remain?
end copy.................

Please note the "...without sorbate or filtering...".

I offered my answer as "another point of view", and I feel that it
addressed the question appropriately. BTW - "Spatlese" styles
tend to run closer to 4.5-6% RS. Even "Auslese" styles run
around 2-4% RS.

"Tom S" wrote in message
om...

That's fine if you want all your wines to be sweet rocket fuel, but
isn't
too useful to the winemaker who wants to produce a spätlese style of
wine
(~11% alcohol, 1% RS).

Tom S

On 12/14/03 5:33 PM, in article
, "Robert Lee"
wrote:

At home, ferment recommencing is meesy and a pain in the arse, commercially
its an absolute disaster, so most winemakers want to be dead sure when
bottling sweet wines.

Now there's a new one. Would you define "meesy" ?

Thanks.

--
Greg Cook
http://homepage.mac.com/gregcook/Wine

(remove spamblocker from my email)

"frederick ploegman" wrote in message ...

I offered my answer as "another point of view", and I feel that it
addressed the question appropriately. BTW - "Spatlese" styles
tend to run closer to 4.5-6% RS. Even "Auslese" styles run
around 2-4% RS.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you may have wanted to say
Kabinett rather than Auslese. Auslese "usually" contain more residual
sugar than Spatlese (up in the 8%-10% range and can be much higher).
Kabinett tends to be in the 2%-4% range (unless trocken is also on the
label).

The above is a generalization because there is no law determining the
amount of residual sugar left in the German QMP wines. The laws deal
with the sugar level before fermentation. The amount of RS is up to
the wine maker (for now).

Andy

"Lum" wrote in message ...

I agree that an experiment such as this can't address what will happen to
filtered wine in 20 years. But, it seems to me that Roberta's experiment
does prove that a tight filtration did not significantly change the near
term characteristics of _those_ particular wines.

I agree.

Perhaps the most
important aspect is that an experiment was done.

I agree 100%.

Measurements were made,
data was collected and analyzed and the results presented. That's a lot
different than speculation.

And we need a lot more of this. Sorry, I may have come off too strong
before.

It's just that sometimes we (as a society) try to read too much into
some of these studies. This includes current medical research.
Sometimes we want the data to prove something that the experiment just
didn't address.

Unfortunately, a lot of the experiments we really need, take 5, 10, 20
years to conduct. If the experiment isn't set up right to begin with,
a lot of time can be wasted.


Regards,

My Regards also,

Andy

I think that from a commercial standpoint filtration to assure to a
high degree that your wine will be biologically stable is becoming nearly an
industry standard. Of course there are the "all natural" methods which I
recognize, but they are the exception for now.
I have attended a seminar on filtration in which the same wine was
sampled as filtered and non filtered. Clarity in this case was not
disernable to me, and I certainly could not tell which was which although in
my mind I did perceive the wines to taste slightly different. This view
seemed to be the general consensus of those in attendance with obvious
differing opinions. Some guessed which was filtered and which non, and as
Lum stated earlier- guessing was about the best that could be done. So for
me IF I was a COMMERCIAL winemaker, I would sterile filter all of my white
wines both dry and semi-sweet, and might consider the same treatment for my
reds although I am not convinced on them. For the home winemaker- I dont
think it is necessary, but at times I find it desireable mainly to give my
wine a "polished" look, and to avoid the use of Sorbate which I am not a big
fan of taste wise. On the subject of Sorbate I will add that in lesser
amounts I cant detect it, and I imagine most people cant either, so that is
a debateable issue as well. Just my opinion based on what I have experienced
and have learned. HTH
John Dixon
"JEP" wrote in message
om...
"Lum" wrote in message
...

I agree that an experiment such as this can't address what will happen
to
filtered wine in 20 years. But, it seems to me that Roberta's
experiment
does prove that a tight filtration did not significantly change the near
term characteristics of _those_ particular wines.

I agree.

Perhaps the most
important aspect is that an experiment was done.

I agree 100%.

Measurements were made,
data was collected and analyzed and the results presented. That's a lot
different than speculation.

And we need a lot more of this. Sorry, I may have come off too strong
before.

It's just that sometimes we (as a society) try to read too much into
some of these studies. This includes current medical research.
Sometimes we want the data to prove something that the experiment just
didn't address.

Unfortunately, a lot of the experiments we really need, take 5, 10, 20
years to conduct. If the experiment isn't set up right to begin with,
a lot of time can be wasted.


Regards,

My Regards also,

Andy

"JEP" wrote in message
m...
"frederick ploegman" wrote in message
...

I offered my answer as "another point of view", and I feel that it
addressed the question appropriately. BTW - "Spatlese" styles
tend to run closer to 4.5-6% RS. Even "Auslese" styles run
around 2-4% RS.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you may have wanted to say
Kabinett rather than Auslese. Auslese "usually" contain more residual
sugar than Spatlese (up in the 8%-10% range and can be much higher).
Kabinett tends to be in the 2%-4% range (unless trocken is also on the
label).

The above is a generalization because there is no law determining the
amount of residual sugar left in the German QMP wines. The laws deal
with the sugar level before fermentation. The amount of RS is up to
the wine maker (for now).

Andy

Yes. Thank you. I lived and worked in Germany for 9 years, but
that was a quarter of a century ago and I am now at the age where
my memory is not what it used to be. IIRC - in ascending order of
sweetness they were (are?) Kabinett, Auslese, Spatlese, Eiswine.
This is based on some rather ancient records of tests I conducted
on commercial wines (which is not to say that I may not be wrong
in this). I have no idea what the current laws and regulations might
be. Thanks again.

Yeah, this is bad advice. Ascorbic acid has no effect on yeast, and as
mentioned if you have no Free SO2 it actually accelerates oxidation
(especially if you have any residual copper in solution).

Wineries add ascorbic as an anti-oxidant (strange I know with whats written
above) but always with plenty of Free SO2.

Rob L

"Joe Sallustio" wrote in message
m...
I thought that odd too. I'm not sure how ascorbic acid can arrest
fermentation at any reasonable level. I'm wondering if the sweetener
was sugar or 'wine conditioner'. I have seen bottles of that and it's
usually a combination of a sugar and sorbate. I have heard of people
using ascorbic acid in place of sulfite, but do not understand the
reasoning given. I do not do that; I sweeten, filter and sorbate
whites that are going to have any residual sugar. (My filtering setup
is far from sterile, it's a minijet.)

Regards,
Joe


(David C Breeden) wrote in message
...
Mike Eaton ) wrote:
Our local brewshop owner suggested using ascorbic acid rather than
sorbate or potasium metabisulfate as a means to stop yeast. We've done
more than a dozen wine kits, half requiring sweetening prior to
bottleing, and have had no problems.

The ascorbic acid he had on hand was used in beer brewing, and he
recommended using the same quantities as were recommended for beer.


Hmm. Ascorbic acid, vitamin C, doesn't stop or prevent
fermentation. It will, however, oxidixe your wine if you don't have
adequate levels of SO2.

Maybe the shop owner got confused by the linguistic similarity
between sorbate and ascorbic?


Dave

************************************************** **************************
Dave Breeden

"Lum" wrote in message
...

I agree that an experiment such as this can't address what will happen
to
filtered wine in 20 years. But, it seems to me that Roberta's
experiment
does prove that a tight filtration did not significantly change the near
term characteristics of _those_ particular wines.

The filtered vs unfiltered debate will probably never end to everyone's
satisfaction, but it's been my observation that some wines are the better
for filtration and others poorer. It all depends on the specific wine in
question.

On balance, however, I'd say that the optimum is to produce clean wines that
do not require filtration. That's not the idealist speaking; rather the
lazy pragmatist.

Unfiltered wines are subjected to less handling. I'm sure that all would
agree that less manipulation required between the vine and the bottle
reduces the exposure of the wine to deleterious effects of oxygen and
spoilage organisms. So sayeth the pragmatist.

Less handling of the wine means more free time to surf the web, watch
videos, go on vacation or simply _sleep_! That's where the lazy/leisure
part comes in. :^)

Tom S

"frederick ploegman" wrote in message
...
I am now at the age where
my memory is not what it used to be. IIRC - in ascending order of
sweetness they were (are?) Kabinett, Auslese, Spatlese, Eiswein.

Close, but you have Spätlese and Auslese reversed. And where are
Beerenauslese and Trockenbeerenauslese?

Tom S

"Tom S" wrote in message
om...

"frederick ploegman" wrote in message
...
I am now at the age where
my memory is not what it used to be. IIRC - in ascending order of
sweetness they were (are?) Kabinett, Auslese, Spatlese, Eiswein.

Close, but you have Spätlese and Auslese reversed. And where are
Beerenauslese and Trockenbeerenauslese?

Tom S



Yup - Thanks. It's been a long time. :O)