I responded early on in this debate that degree of difficulty should not
separate wines so kit wines should not be separated out. After reading all
the postes I change that argument. Now I say they should be separated.

Back 25 years ago kits were pretty auful. In no way could they compete with
other wines. But they have gotten better and better over the years. And
they will be getting better in the future. They are doing more and more
steps for the winemaker, making it simpler to make wine. This is
aplaudable.

But, we are talking about judging home made wine. There is a difference in
judging comercial wines. With commercial wines you are judging the product
partially as a service to the public so they will know the best wine to buy.
With amatures, who do not sell, you are judging the product to see who is
the best wine maker. Not the same thing.

If we are judging a home wine making competition, how many of the steps
toward making wine should we allow a profesional to do rather than the home
winemaker and still call it HIS wine? Pressing juice is not a big step but
what about profesionally blending the juice or mixing in chemicals. What
about the places that will make the wine for you and put your label on it?
Is this going too far? What about doing all the steps except bottling so
you could just buy an expensive wine and pour it you your own bottle and put
your cork in it?

The competition should be judging the product of amature winemakers who make
homemade wine, not products partically made by someone else before the
winemaker gets it.

In conclusion. Kits and Juice wines should be judged separately as they are
not totally made by the winemaker. Maybe they should not even be entered in
competition for best of show! They were not totally made by the person who
entered it.

Ray

SG Brix, thank you for your kind words, but you missed what I was
saying. I said I have enetered competitions that judged separately:

CLASS A: GRAPE WINES (WHOLE, FRESH)
(numerous sub-categories)
CLASS B: FRUIT WINES (ANY FORM OF FRUIT OR BERRY)
(red [dry and sweet], white [dry and sweet])
CLASS C: GRAPE CONCENTRATE WINES (NOT KITS)
(numerous sub-categories)
CLASS D: KIT WINES (JUICE OR CONCENTRATE)
(numerous sub-categories)

They were not all judged together, as you inferref. The key word was
"separately."

In all earnest their have to be a clear distinctive bar between all
others and wine made from real grapes.

There was. That was my point. It was the fruit wines, I thought,
that got screwed. There were 48 categories for grape wines (adding
fresh, concentrates and kits), but only 4 for fruit. I didn't like
it, but I chose to live with it and entered. I did okay.

Gods created the grape to wine; the rest is our own inability to not be able
to do the first.

Excuse me if I strenuously disagree with you, but I think fresh fruit
wines are much more difficult to make well than fresh grape wines.
Fresh grapes, properly processed and managed, will make their own
wine. Not so with any other fruit. The winemaker has to intervene
numerous ways and make numerous decisions, any one of which can be
wrong and result in an unbalanced or even unpalatable wine.

Lots of people can make very good grape wines but cannot make very
good fruit wines. I don't know anyone who makes very good fruit wines
who doesn't also make very good grape wines. I'm thinking....
Nope--don't know anyone.

Have at it. I'm off to California for the next 3 1/2 weeks. I'll
check your comments when I return.

Jack Keller, The Winemaking Home Page
http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/

"Jack Keller" wrote in message
om...

snip

Excuse me if I strenuously disagree with you, but I think fresh fruit
wines are much more difficult to make well than fresh grape wines.
Fresh grapes, properly processed and managed, will make their own
wine. Not so with any other fruit. The winemaker has to intervene
numerous ways and make numerous decisions, any one of which can be
wrong and result in an unbalanced or even unpalatable wine.

Lots of people can make very good grape wines but cannot make very
good fruit wines. I don't know anyone who makes very good fruit wines
who doesn't also make very good grape wines. I'm thinking....
Nope--don't know anyone.

Have at it. I'm off to California for the next 3 1/2 weeks. I'll
check your comments when I return.

Jack Keller, The Winemaking Home Page
http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/

snip

Hi jack

Oh, SURE !! You light a fire and then run off to sunny California
leaving a few of us snow bound old Far*s to defend your position !!
;o) hehehe Just kidding. Enjoy the trip !!

Frederick

(sgbrix) wrote
Gods created the grape to wine; the rest is our
own inability to not be able to do the first. And there is nothing
wrong with that but it should be classified as country wine, expensive
sold juice wine (kit wines), etc etc. By mixing them both you will
have forever clouded the little spheres that we always associate as
"real" wine

What a lot of c***

Remember that mankind has been cultivating and breeding grapes for
thousands of years. It's like letting a milk-cow loose in the prairies
to fend for himself because it's 'natures way'. Or whatever gods
creation. Dream on.

Rene.

(Jack Keller) wrote in message . com...
SG Brix, thank you for your kind words, but you missed what I was
saying. I said I have enetered competitions that judged separately:

CLASS A: GRAPE WINES (WHOLE, FRESH)
(numerous sub-categories)
CLASS B: FRUIT WINES (ANY FORM OF FRUIT OR BERRY)
(red [dry and sweet], white [dry and sweet])
CLASS C: GRAPE CONCENTRATE WINES (NOT KITS)
(numerous sub-categories)
CLASS D: KIT WINES (JUICE OR CONCENTRATE)
(numerous sub-categories)

They were not all judged together, as you inferref. The key word was
"separately."


---snip

What would make sense in the end is simply to have a general category
sheet for any promoter of these events that subjects entries from wide
variants I categories we all would agree to, so it would be the same
coast to coast. To ever achieve this would only come under some for of
national organization that the promoter then could belong to.

Gods created the grape to wine; the rest is our own inability to not be able
to do the first.

Well, this of course is a pun, referring to the Gods...

Excuse me if I strenuously disagree with you, but I think fresh fruit
wines are much more difficult to make well than fresh grape wines.

This we can debate to drink while we emptying both of our cellars and
never come to any agreements. Hinting that real wines make themselves,
oh Jack, aren't we slipping now...

Have at it. I'm off to California for the next 3 1/2 weeks. I'll
check your comments when I return.

While there I hope you give the little spheres a try,

SG Brix

(Rene) wrote in message . com...

Remember that mankind has been cultivating and breeding grapes for
thousands of years. It's like letting a milk-cow loose in the prairies
to fend for himself because it's 'natures way'. Or whatever gods
creation. Dream on.

Sorry you did not get my pun on God. God & wine have a close
association through all of our history, and I still think the serve
the stuff in church during special events...

Regarding your lost milk-cow, no you are right it is not natures way,
some would argue that it might be Gods way...

However "Dream on", is dead on.

SG Brix