I thought I would bring this question right to the people who know... I have
had folks in the past tell me why or why not to use plastic.... but I don't
think they know any more about the subject than I...
Should I use a Plastic or Glass Carboy?
Thanks in advance

--

George

On 11/28/03 8:44 AM, in article , "George"
wrote:

I thought I would bring this question right to the people who know... I have
had folks in the past tell me why or why not to use plastic.... but I don't
think they know any more about the subject than I...
Should I use a Plastic or Glass Carboy?
Thanks in advance


Glass is the best to use. You can use plastic for short term, but it is not
best to keep wine in plastic for more than a month. Most plastics are not
completely impervious to air and they do allow oxidation over time. Also,
with the higher alcohol level of wine (compared to say sodas or water), more
organic substances from the plastics are leached out. I would generally not
recommend aging in plastic at all. Primary fermentation and quick racking
should be fine. I have noticed definite taste differences in wines stored in
plastic vs glass.


--
Greg Cook
http://homepage.mac.com/gregcook/Wine

(remove spamblocker from my email)

Fermenting in plastic is not an issue. There would no difference versus
glass except that the plastic bucket is much safer to handle and easier to
clean. Wine does not leach organic substances from plastic that was
designated for food contact use.

Long term storage is where plastics have problems. Using one month as the
cut off is a bit shy and not based on any data I have ever seen. Six months
is too long for most plastics. I wouldn't let unfermenting media sit in a
plastic container for more than three months but that's just a subjective
estimate between experience and data.

-Danno

--
email me at s_danno at msn dot com
---------------------------------------------------------


"Greg Cook" wrote in message
...

Glass is the best to use. You can use plastic for short term, but it is
not
best to keep wine in plastic for more than a month. Most plastics are not
completely impervious to air and they do allow oxidation over time. Also,
with the higher alcohol level of wine (compared to say sodas or water),
more
organic substances from the plastics are leached out. I would generally
not
recommend aging in plastic at all. Primary fermentation and quick racking
should be fine. I have noticed definite taste differences in wines stored
in
plastic vs glass.


--
Greg Cook
http://homepage.mac.com/gregcook/Wine

(remove spamblocker from my email)

"George" wrote in message
...
I thought I would bring this question right to the people who know... I
have
had folks in the past tell me why or why not to use plastic.... but I
don't
think they know any more about the subject than I...
Should I use a Plastic or Glass Carboy?

That depends a bit on how accident prone you are.

Glass carboys are the gold standard for home winemaking, but they're heavy
and subject to breakage - even if you're careful. Although I occasionally
use glass for storing wine for topping, I prefer to use stainless steel kegs
or gallon jugs.

I see winemakers use plastic water carboys for short term storage of wine,
but I don't do that myself unless there is no alternative in an emergency,
and then for only a short time.

Tom S

"danno" wrote in message
...

Long term storage is where plastics have problems. Using one month as the
cut off is a bit shy and not based on any data I have ever seen. Six
months
is too long for most plastics. I wouldn't let unfermenting media sit in a
plastic container for more than three months but that's just a subjective
estimate between experience and data.

Many years ago, we did an experiment where a portion of our Merlot/Cab batch
was left for several months in a 66 liter HDPE tank while the rest aged in
glass carboys. We were actually hoping for some slow uptake to mimic the
aging process in a barrel. Alas, we did not get anything of the sort. There
was no noticeable difference between the plastic and glass aged wines.
Admittedly, the capacity of the tank was almost certainly a factor. We could
have seen very different results in plastic carboys of a size comparable to
the glass. In any case, no harm came to the wine. That wine was a 94 vintage
which puts it at about 9 years old now. It is still the finest wine in my
cellar and shows no signs of falling off. Stupidly, most of it was drunk far
too young. We have only a few bottles left. I need to make another red like
that while I'm still likely to have enough years left to enjoy it.

BTW, it was made from Brehm grapes (well, frozen ones anyway).

Brian

"Brian Lundeen" wrote in message
...
That wine was a 94 vintage
which puts it at about 9 years old now. It is still the finest wine in my
cellar and shows no signs of falling off. Stupidly, most of it was drunk
far
too young. We have only a few bottles left. I need to make another red
like
that while I'm still likely to have enough years left to enjoy it.

BTW, it was made from Brehm grapes (well, frozen ones anyway).

There's nothing intrinsically inferior about frozen grapes. In fact, I can
make a good case for frozen grapes being _superior_ to fresh. Most of the
so-called "boutique" wineries cold soak their red musts prior to
fermentation by dumping in mass quantities of dry ice.

BTW, was your Cabernet from Rutherford? If so, that would be the Allais
Vineyard. I made Cabernet from that vineyard in 1986, 1987 & 1988. The
1986 was OK, but the other two were _superb_ - particularly the 1987.

I crushed a ton of the '87 and aged the same wine side by side in a new
Radoux "chateau" barrel and a new A&K fire bent American barrel. I was
interested in determining the difference between the two over time. I
bottled the wine after ~2 years in barrel and a gelatin fining.

I can now say with certainty that the French barreled wine is superior (on
the palate) to the American, showing more finesse and complexity, but the
American has a really pleasant, racy nose. A combination of the two would
perhaps be optimum, and that's pretty much what many wineries opt for -
although not with such a high proportion of new oak.

I opened my second to last bottle of the American oak aged '87 last night.
It still has abundant fruit and unresolved tannin. It's hard to believe
that it's 16 years old! It could easily stand another ten or fifteen years
of bottle age. I'd _love_ to make some more!

Tom S

George, I think your question needs to be refined a bit.

Certainly you were not asking about plastic as a primary, were you?
Food grade plastic primaries are perfectly safe for that purpose, but
I've read many posts here and elsewhere of people using trash bins for
primary. The plastics industry has universally made white the color
of food grade plastic, except in kitchenware, were colors are
understood to be decorative only. White 5-, 6-, and 7-gallons buckets
are usually food grade. I say usually because I have seen white
buckets, usually flimsy or at least less rigid than standard, marked
"Not for storage of food or drink."

I think you meant as use for secondaries or long-term storage. Here
one usually must choose between plastic water carboys, large soda
bottles, plastic kegs, or plastic water jugs, the latter often with
simple faucets at their base. The water carboys are okay for
short-term use, as Greg indicated, but you should know the danger.
While I cannot recall the exact name of the plastic used, it is not
impervious to oxygen transfer. This transfer is not rapid, and if the
wine is maintained with a healthy dosage of sulfur dioxide (30-50 ppm)
it is probably quite safe. This plastic will not taint the flavor or
nose of the wine, but it isn't nearly as safe as glass and that's not
debatable. The ones I've seen almost everywhere require that a
quarter-inch or so (that inward curvature) be removed from the lip of
the mouth for convenient use. A number 9 bung works for me. I have
three, but only use them when every available carboy is in use and I
need to rack.

If you mean long-term, bulk storage of wine, 3-liter soda bottles are
fine to use. They are many orders of magnitude more impervious to O2
invasion than the water carboys or cheaper plastic water jugs. The
particular plastic used for them is PET. If you do a careful search
of "PET +plastic +permeability" you will, after weeding out all the
junk hits, learn more than you ever want to know about this subject.
There are many, many test results out there from the plastic, food and
beverage industries of PET's permeability, but you have to read these
carefully. Most are for thin films, such as plastic wrap, and if you
just look at their results you will be skeptical. Also, look at the
dates of the tests. Tremendous improvements have been made to PET in
the past 20 years, and the product itself has been around many
decades. Dow Chemicals makes several lines of PET, the most
impervious to O2 being one called Light 98. To demonstrate how far
these materials have come, almost 80% of all beer sold in Japan is
packaged in PET bottles with a shelf life of two years. So, long-term
storage in PET containers is fine if the closures are still seal-able.

I cannot comment on the plastic kegs as I have never used them. They
are not all that popular in the United States anyway, but I do know
two people who use them and claim they are as good as stainless steel.
Given their heaviness, I suspect they are fine -- "as good as
stainless steel" is going a bit far.

I hope this helps you decide.

Jack Keller, The Winemaking Home Page
http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/

Thanks Jack,
I was thinking of using a 5 gal. water bottle, I would never use anything
but food safe containers I have used Buckets that came from a deli where I
worked they were used to ship in cake iceing... They work great I now have a
couple plastic water carboy type bottles I was thinking of useing....
Thanks to you and all the folks that posted
--
Best Regards
George

"Jack Keller" wrote in message
om...
George, I think your question needs to be refined a bit.

Certainly you were not asking about plastic as a primary, were you?
Food grade plastic primaries are perfectly safe for that purpose, but
I've read many posts here and elsewhere of people using trash bins for
primary. The plastics industry has universally made white the color
of food grade plastic, except in kitchenware, were colors are
understood to be decorative only. White 5-, 6-, and 7-gallons buckets
are usually food grade. I say usually because I have seen white
buckets, usually flimsy or at least less rigid than standard, marked
"Not for storage of food or drink."

I think you meant as use for secondaries or long-term storage. Here
one usually must choose between plastic water carboys, large soda
bottles, plastic kegs, or plastic water jugs, the latter often with
simple faucets at their base. The water carboys are okay for
short-term use, as Greg indicated, but you should know the danger.
While I cannot recall the exact name of the plastic used, it is not
impervious to oxygen transfer. This transfer is not rapid, and if the
wine is maintained with a healthy dosage of sulfur dioxide (30-50 ppm)
it is probably quite safe. This plastic will not taint the flavor or
nose of the wine, but it isn't nearly as safe as glass and that's not
debatable. The ones I've seen almost everywhere require that a
quarter-inch or so (that inward curvature) be removed from the lip of
the mouth for convenient use. A number 9 bung works for me. I have
three, but only use them when every available carboy is in use and I
need to rack.

If you mean long-term, bulk storage of wine, 3-liter soda bottles are
fine to use. They are many orders of magnitude more impervious to O2
invasion than the water carboys or cheaper plastic water jugs. The
particular plastic used for them is PET. If you do a careful search
of "PET +plastic +permeability" you will, after weeding out all the
junk hits, learn more than you ever want to know about this subject.
There are many, many test results out there from the plastic, food and
beverage industries of PET's permeability, but you have to read these
carefully. Most are for thin films, such as plastic wrap, and if you
just look at their results you will be skeptical. Also, look at the
dates of the tests. Tremendous improvements have been made to PET in
the past 20 years, and the product itself has been around many
decades. Dow Chemicals makes several lines of PET, the most
impervious to O2 being one called Light 98. To demonstrate how far
these materials have come, almost 80% of all beer sold in Japan is
packaged in PET bottles with a shelf life of two years. So, long-term
storage in PET containers is fine if the closures are still seal-able.

I cannot comment on the plastic kegs as I have never used them. They
are not all that popular in the United States anyway, but I do know
two people who use them and claim they are as good as stainless steel.
Given their heaviness, I suspect they are fine -- "as good as
stainless steel" is going a bit far.

I hope this helps you decide.

Jack Keller, The Winemaking Home Page
http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/

"Jack Keller" wrote in message
om...
I've read many posts here and elsewhere of people using trash bins for
primary. The plastics industry has universally made white the color
of food grade plastic, except in kitchenware, were colors are
understood to be decorative only.

Hi, Jack -

Apparently they also make blue food grade plastic. I have seen many plastic
55 gallon drums that originally held fruit juice concentrate, and I've
bought frozen must in blue wide mouth barrels that I have subsequently used
for fermenters.

Tom S

"Tom S" wrote in message
. com...

"Jack Keller" wrote in message
om...
I've read many posts here and elsewhere of people using trash bins for
primary. The plastics industry has universally made white the color
of food grade plastic, except in kitchenware, were colors are
understood to be decorative only.

Hi, Jack -

Apparently they also make blue food grade plastic. I have seen many
plastic
55 gallon drums that originally held fruit juice concentrate, and I've
bought frozen must in blue wide mouth barrels that I have subsequently
used
for fermenters.

Tom S

US Plastics makes food grade HDPE drums in several colors including blue. I
am not necessarily plugging the company but I have ordered from them in the
past and have been pleased. If you have any doubts you can talk to one of
their technical persons to verify it is safe for fermentation before
ordering. Many have cam rings for sealing and holes that you could put in
an airlock or bung. I only use them for primary fermentatin, however.

All good comments, but I would add that I have seen more than a few
commercial wineries using the larger white plastic containers for long term
storage with no ill effects that I know of. Still cant argue against
stainless, but I think there is a lot of misinformation on the plastic based
on older technology and thin walled plastics.
John Dixon
"Paul E. Lehmann" wrote in message
...

"Tom S" wrote in message
. com...

"Jack Keller" wrote in message
om...
I've read many posts here and elsewhere of people using trash bins for
primary. The plastics industry has universally made white the color
of food grade plastic, except in kitchenware, were colors are
understood to be decorative only.

Hi, Jack -

Apparently they also make blue food grade plastic. I have seen many
plastic
55 gallon drums that originally held fruit juice concentrate, and I've
bought frozen must in blue wide mouth barrels that I have subsequently
used
for fermenters.

Tom S

US Plastics makes food grade HDPE drums in several colors including blue.
I
am not necessarily plugging the company but I have ordered from them in
the
past and have been pleased. If you have any doubts you can talk to one of
their technical persons to verify it is safe for fermentation before
ordering. Many have cam rings for sealing and holes that you could put in
an airlock or bung. I only use them for primary fermentatin, however.

Tom and Paul,

I knew when I wrote it that blue is sometimes used for food and
beverages, but I didn't want to lead anyone astray and I was speaking
of the common standard. As a matter of fact, I have two of those blue
barrels (mine are 33 gallons each).

Thank you both for keeping me straight....

Jack

"Tom S" wrote in message
. com...


BTW, was your Cabernet from Rutherford?

The cabs (sauv and franc) were Sonoma Mountain. Don't recall what Merlot I
got, although it was one of his California offerings, not Washington. Can't
even find the blasted log entry for that wine. I wonder if it predates the
log book. Oh well...

Brian

There are several things that should be considered if plastic is to be used.
1) is it food safe. That should be a given. 2) is it alcohol and acid
safe. A plastic may be perfectly safe with water but it may leach out
hydrocarbon substances if an acidic, alcohol solvent (wine) is kept in in
for years. 3) Is it permeable to oxygen.

Most of these issues have been addressed above. But another is whether it
is "reusable". I can clean out a glass carboy very simply, seal it with
syranwrap, and 3 months later it will smells clean, i.e., of nothing. If I
clean out a plastic container and seal it, a week later it has a distinct
odor to it. I can clean it again and wait a week and it will smell again.
This suggests to me that at least some of the wine or juice that was stored
in it is absorbed in the plastic and is not being cleaned out. This could
become contaminated with almost anything between uses and I would not trust
it.

At least that is my view on the subject. I sure wish I could use plastic as
glass is just so dang heavy.

Ray

"George" wrote in message
...
I thought I would bring this question right to the people who know... I
have
had folks in the past tell me why or why not to use plastic.... but I
don't
think they know any more about the subject than I...
Should I use a Plastic or Glass Carboy?
Thanks in advance

--

George