wow, as I sit here constantly sipping my own wine,
watching this growing thread about your new acquisition,
I'm starting to feel my own kind of bladder press...

gotta go before IIIIIIIIIIIII explode!!!!

Rick

[p.s. - actually, congratulations on your new winemaking item!]

Thank you Rick for that vote of confidance.

"Negodki" wrote in message
...
"Jim" wrote in message
I have adapted my bladder press to work on compressed air no leaking
water and if the bladder brakes I will not lose my must. I use a small
compressor with a valve in the line to shut of the compressor at
25psi.

"Ray" wrote:
Yes but compressed air is far, far, far, far more dangerous. Compressed
gas
blows out it throws things. Compressed liquid blows out and it spits.
That
is why hydraulic systems always use liquid rather than gas. This
probably
will not change your mind but just to let others know -- this is not a
good
idea.

Ray, I don't know what you mean by "blows out", "throws things" or
"spits",
but the primary reason that "hydraulic systems" use liquid rather than gas
is that the word "hydraulic" means "operated by liquid". If they used gas,
they would be called "pneumatic".

The preference for hydraulic systems over pneumatic is that liquids don't
compress under pressure like gas does. Thus, the hydraulic brakes on your
car becoming "spongy" and less effective when there is air in the lines.
Pneumatic systems also require large storage tanks, and heavy compressors,
which are impractical for smaller applications.

Household water pressure is more than sufficient to operate the press. An
air compressor must be regulated down to ~30 psi or you run the serious
risk
of rupturing the bladder. However, if you have such a regulator, it seems
that compressed air would be preferable. Water hoses often leak, and
sometimes burst. Unless you press outdoors (where there are more insects
and
bacteria to worry about), this could be a problem.


Beg to differ Negodki. Compressed Gas is dangerous and you are advocating
dangerous practices. Liquid is used in hydraulics because it is safe. It
does not compress. Or at least very little. If there is a breakage only a
few drops of liquid are thrown out as that is all the compression you get.
Gas can be used in hydraulic systems just as well as liquid as is being
advocated here. The difference is that "when" there is a failure, not "if",
then the compressed gas will throw anything it comes in contact with. This
can have maiming if not deadly effect. The system he is using was designed
to by liquid driven. Using air may work but it certainly does not have the
shielding necessary.

Don't intend to get in an argument over this. I have said my peace.

Ray

"MikeMTM" wrote in message
...
This jives with what I
know about compressed gas: it's amazingly dangerous.

I'm going to stick with water to run my press. If it ever ruptures, I just
have to have a plan in mind to limit the dilution effects as much as
possible.

Of course, that doesn't help me on my brewing side. I have a 20 pound CO2
tank in my basement for my keg fridge. I don't worry about it too much, just
sitting there. It's in a position where it is unlikely to get knocked over.

But when it comes time to exchange it, that's gonna be one nervous drive,
expecially coming back with the full one. ;-)

Brian

"Negodki" wrote in message
...

Vegetables are also grown outdoors. Yet most people wash the dirt and
insects from them before serving them to guests.


So, you wash your grapes? My point was dirt, bacteria, wild yeasts, even the
odd insect find their way into your fermenter anyway if you are working with
grapes. The only thing I try to avoid throwing in are mould spores.

Brian

"Brian Lundeen" wrote:
So, you wash your grapes? My point was dirt, bacteria, wild yeasts, even
the
odd insect find their way into your fermenter anyway if you are working
with
grapes. The only thing I try to avoid throwing in are mould spores.

Yes, I wash my grapes before crushing them. And I press indoors to avoid
unnecessary exposure to insects and bacteria. And, since I press long and
slow, I cover the pressing apparatus with plastic during the procedure,
running (sterilized) tubing from the press to the receiving carboy. It
amazes me that you are so concerned with microbes in another thread, and
unconcerned with tangible contaminants in this one.

sorry, I guess I focused more on the words "bladder" press and ran with that
and filling it with too much wine passed through the liver first than I did
on the idea of the exploding...

it's been an interesting topic, really...
I just made a pneumatic cannon, and am aware of some of the fears and
dangers of pvc pipe turning into shrapnel....so I rarely pump it up more
than 20-25 psi...although most of the fittings are rated at more than 100
psi....
So it's been interesting seeing how the same topic has been adapted to
winemaking!
People are pretty clever and really do some neat things to adapt their hobby
to what's available to them!

Rick





"Jim" wrote in message
...
Thank you Rick for that vote of confidance.

"Brian Lundeen" wrote in message
...
I have a 20 pound CO2
tank in my basement for my keg fridge. I don't worry about it too much,
just
sitting there. It's in a position where it is unlikely to get knocked
over.

But when it comes time to exchange it, that's gonna be one nervous drive,
expecially coming back with the full one. ;-)

Why? The pressure in a CO2 cylinder isn't all that high. If you hadn't
noticed, the cylinders are made of aluminum rather than steel like the high
pressure tanks.

Most of the contents is in the liquid state anyway, so there isn't much
potential energy in the event of a rupture. I sure would get cold in a
hurry though, and you'd better have a window rolled down!

Tom S

They make scuba tanks from steel and aluminum. Both hold 2200 psi.

-Danno

--
email me at s_danno at msn dot com
---------------------------------------------------------


"Tom S" wrote in message
om...

"Brian Lundeen" wrote in message
...
I have a 20 pound CO2
tank in my basement for my keg fridge. I don't worry about it too much,
just
sitting there. It's in a position where it is unlikely to get knocked
over.

But when it comes time to exchange it, that's gonna be one nervous
drive,
expecially coming back with the full one. ;-)

Why? The pressure in a CO2 cylinder isn't all that high. If you hadn't
noticed, the cylinders are made of aluminum rather than steel like the
high
pressure tanks.

Most of the contents is in the liquid state anyway, so there isn't much
potential energy in the event of a rupture. I sure would get cold in a
hurry though, and you'd better have a window rolled down!

Tom S

"danno" wrote in message
...
They make scuba tanks from steel and aluminum. Both hold 2200 psi.

-Danno

--
email me at s_danno at msn dot com

Yep, that is why they are not allowed on aircraft AND they are required to
have a visual AND Hydrostatic inspection periodically. It has been awhile,
but I believe the visual is every year and the hydro every 5 years.
Hopefully, in the event of abnormal pressure, the tank valve will go before
the tank.


---------------------------------------------------------


"Tom S" wrote in message
om...

"Brian Lundeen" wrote in message
...
I have a 20 pound CO2
tank in my basement for my keg fridge. I don't worry about it too
much,
just
sitting there. It's in a position where it is unlikely to get knocked
over.

But when it comes time to exchange it, that's gonna be one nervous
drive,
expecially coming back with the full one. ;-)

Why? The pressure in a CO2 cylinder isn't all that high. If you hadn't
noticed, the cylinders are made of aluminum rather than steel like the
high
pressure tanks.

Most of the contents is in the liquid state anyway, so there isn't much
potential energy in the event of a rupture. I sure would get cold in a
hurry though, and you'd better have a window rolled down!

Tom S

"Negodki" wrote in message
...

Yes, I wash my grapes before crushing them. And I press indoors to avoid
unnecessary exposure to insects and bacteria. And, since I press long and
slow, I cover the pressing apparatus with plastic during the procedure,
running (sterilized) tubing from the press to the receiving carboy. It
amazes me that you are so concerned with microbes in another thread, and
unconcerned with tangible contaminants in this one.

Then you are unnecessarily diluting your wine with residual water hanging
from the grape clusters. Do you think wineries wash their grapes?

As for my concern with microbes, a careful re-reading of what I wrote will
show that I agreed that a thorough cleansing is generally sufficient for
winemaking given adequate SO2 levels. It is on the brewing side that I pay
particular attention to effectively sanitizing all equipment, since beer
does not contain free SO2.

Brian

"Paul E. Lehmann" wrote in message
...


Yep, that is why they are not allowed on aircraft AND they are required to
have a visual AND Hydrostatic inspection periodically. It has been
awhile,
but I believe the visual is every year and the hydro every 5 years.
Hopefully, in the event of abnormal pressure, the tank valve will go
before
the tank.

Which is where my fear lies. I have little fear of a CO2 tank exploding, but
I do fear the valve breaking off and turning that cylinder into a very
destructive rocket.

Brian

"Negodki" wrote in message
Yes, I wash my grapes before crushing them. And I press indoors to avoid
unnecessary exposure to insects and bacteria. And, since I press long
and
slow, I cover the pressing apparatus with plastic during the procedure,
running (sterilized) tubing from the press to the receiving carboy. It
amazes me that you are so concerned with microbes in another thread, and
unconcerned with tangible contaminants in this one.

"Brian Lundeen" wrote:
Then you are unnecessarily diluting your wine with residual water hanging
from the grape clusters. Do you think wineries wash their grapes?

Necessity is a matter of opinion. I don't want insects and bird droppings
(not to mention more unpleasant things) in my wine, whether or not I can
taste them, and whether or not they will cause infection. I don't believe
the "je ne sais qua" improves the flavour of wine, especially when "je sais
très bien ce qua".

How much "unnecessary" dilution do you think occurs (not having the least
idea of the methods I use for washing -- and perhaps drying -- the fruit)?

I KNOW that some wineries do [wash there fruit], and others don't.

As for my concern with microbes, a careful re-reading of what I wrote will
show that I agreed that a thorough cleansing is generally sufficient for
winemaking given adequate SO2 levels. It is on the brewing side that I pay
particular attention to effectively sanitizing all equipment, since beer
does not contain free SO2.

A careful re-reading of what -I- wrote will show that we are essentially in
agreement on this point. I advocate the use of hot water, soap, detergent,
caustics, and acids when I deem their use appropriate. I do not advocate the
"unnecessary" (conceding that the definition of "necessary" is based on
opinion) of "sterilizers" and "sanitizers" when a lesser method is
sufficient (again conceding the word is subject to opinion). And I do -not-
advocate "no-rinse" products without rinsing, because of measurable
residuals -- whether or not these levels are deemed "safe" according to the
science or politics of the day. [And I prefer to press indoors, where there
are fewer insects and bacteria.]

"Brian Lundeen" wrote:
Which is where my fear lies. I have little fear of a CO2 tank exploding,
but
I do fear the valve breaking off and turning that cylinder into a very
destructive rocket.

What are the probabilities of this happening? I can't recall reading of an
errant CO2 (or other gas tank) shooting through the skies, and assume that
it is an extremely rare incidence, far less frequent than burst hoses. If it
were not, I suspect that Benevolent Big Brother would have outlawed or
severely-restricted their use by now.

The pressurized tanks used for oxy-acetylene welding are fairly heavy, as
are propane tanks. I doubt they would move far with a broken valve. If it
broke off, the valve itself might turn into a missile, which is why there is
a heavy duty metal guard to prevent the valve from being bumped into. I
suspect CO2 tanks are similarly constructed.

I do note that such tanks cannot be (legally) transported without a
"hazardous materials" license, and the various prerequisite equipment
inspections.

Manufacturers of bladder presses specify that water OR compressed air may be
used. They caution that a pressure regulator must be used with compressed
air (and theoretically with water, if your local supply was more than 30
psi, which it is in some locals). In today's litigious society, if there was
a tangible (or even remote) danger of the tank (or valve) exploding, I
suspect the instructions for the press would come with the following
disclaimer: "WARNING! DO NOT USE COMPRESSED AIR TO POWER THIS APPARATUS!..."
followed by a lengthy dissertation of the possible results of such action.

The fact that there is no such warning, indicates to me that there is no
substantial probability with that which concerns you.

I know this is way off topic , but YES a high pressure gas bottle will
project itself about 3 to 400 YARDS . The way that we emptied old military
bottles was to set them up on a ramp , then knock off the valves with a
sledge hammer . Made for quick work , got them empty , and more importantly
, was a hell of a lot of fun.
Greg

The pressurized tanks used for oxy-acetylene welding are fairly heavy, as
are propane tanks. I doubt they would move far with a broken valve. If it
broke off, the valve itself might turn into a missile, which is why there
is
a heavy duty metal guard to prevent the valve from being bumped into. I
suspect CO2 tanks are similarly constructed.