Hi all,

I've been lurking and learning for some time now and now am stumped by
some questions a friend of mine and I have.

Some background. This spring I made a Brew King Lodi Old Vines
Zinfandel kit and this past fall started a bucket of Regina California
Zinfandel. Both my first attempts at making red wine from either a
kit or 'fresh/frozen' juice. Both have StaVin Oak beans added so both
are pretty similar. But, what can I expect the difference to be
between the two? And, will the difference merit the 3x cost in price
of the Brew King kit? The Brew King kit makes 6 US gallons versus the
5US gal. bucket of juice. I had to provide yeast, any finings and
potassium metabisulphite, but that's only an extra ~$2.00 in
materials. The juice costs us US $35/5 gallons versus the Brew King
kit that runs locally for around $100 for 16 liters of concentrate.
Can we expect a superior wine from the Brew King kit?

Thanks and cheers!

Brandon

Well I, for one, would be interested in the result of your comparison.
Especially with the cost difference. I have commented before on the high
cost of the Estate Series and feel that they are over priced.

Although most of the red wine I make now is from BK Selection international
etc I am always just a tad dissatisfied with the end result. I would
qualify that. I have found that the Selection series together with their
Limited edition kits give me the best result for red wine of any kit I have
ever used -- except there is always that"je ne sais quoi" element in the
end product which I blame on the method of extracting and fixing the
colour of the juice -- presumably some sort of heat treatment. I have made
just one kit of the Zin Old Vines Estate Series and it is under wraps for
another six months more before I bottle. I will give some opinion on the
wine then

I also tend to use a yeast of my own selection rather than the "never fail,
overpower anything, yeast" that comes with the kit --which seems to produce
a sameness regardless of the type of juice provided


--
Trevor A Panther
In South Yorkshire, England
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All outgoing mail is scanned by Norton
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Trevor, I concur with everything that you've said about the Brew King
kits, except possibly the part about them being the best kits. So far
the Cellar Craft WA State Merlot I started in the spring seems more
promising, but still needs age to know for sure.

I did one of these Zin kits when they first came out (fermented it
08/2001). I would say that it's the most enjoyable BK red kit I've
done (out of 6, most of which were other top-of-the-line ones). It
does have quite a bit of true Zinfandel character to it, but it too
lacks the freshness of any Zin made from fresh grapes. I think the
primary problem is lack of aromatics. But it's still quite an
enjoyable everyday wine.

The last couple of years I've been making most of my wine from cheap
central CA valley grapes. I didn't do Zin last year but did this year
with an extended maceration, and the results so far seem vastly more
promising than the BK kit and also the most promising of any of my
grape wines to date. It seems to be the only central valley varietal
that I've done so far that stands well on its own and doesn't cry out
for blending. At this point I'm thinking that I'll probably buy only
Zin from the central valley fruit in the next couple of years, and for
other varieties try getting some fruit from the interior of BC.

As for the Regina juice, you'll have to let us know how that turns
out. I have a hard time believing that any red wine made from juice
alone (no skins) will be truly decent in comparison to those made the
normal way (fermented on the skins). You (Brandon) should consider
trying to get the grapes themselves instead of the juice. The price
will still be significantly cheaper than the kits or juice -- if you
ignore the up-front cost of the equipment required, most of which will
last a lifetime...

Cheers!
Richard

"Pinky" > wrote in message >...
> Well I, for one, would be interested in the result of your comparison.
> Especially with the cost difference. I have commented before on the high
> cost of the Estate Series and feel that they are over priced.
>
> Although most of the red wine I make now is from BK Selection international
> etc I am always just a tad dissatisfied with the end result. I would
> qualify that. I have found that the Selection series together with their
> Limited edition kits give me the best result for red wine of any kit I have
> ever used -- except there is always that"je ne sais quoi" element in the
> end product which I blame on the method of extracting and fixing the
> colour of the juice -- presumably some sort of heat treatment. I have made
> just one kit of the Zin Old Vines Estate Series and it is under wraps for
> another six months more before I bottle. I will give some opinion on the
> wine then
>
> I also tend to use a yeast of my own selection rather than the "never fail,
> overpower anything, yeast" that comes with the kit --which seems to produce
> a sameness regardless of the type of juice provided

Richard
I think that this is the basic problem with the "top end" red wine kits.
After fermenting, bulk aging and bottling + further (oops sp!)aging in
bottle they still only come out as a sort of average wine. As you say a
"satisfactory wine" but after all that tlc and effort there are excellent
supermarket offers which beat in quality and price the kit wines all the
time. I restrict the adverse comments to the red wines only. I still find
that most of the aged white wines I make are still superior in cost and
quality. It is strange but it is the white wines that suffer from
supermarket sales vis home made varieties - you have to be very careful
about selecting white wines to take home but there are a very good
selection of reds.

In respect of the original post I just wish I could buy fresh or frozen wine
varietals juice in UK!


--
Trevor A Panther
In South Yorkshire, England
Remove "SPAMLESS" from my address line to reply.
All outgoing mail is scanned by Norton
Anti Virus for your protection too!

Well, come to Pittsburgh then and see for yourself. We do not have
access to high quality grapes unless you are willing to pay Brehm
prices. I am not.

I make reds from Regina and also buy Central Valley grapes. I have
tried extended maceration, and see no major improvement. What I did
this year was add the grape must to the juice, (It was all Cab this
year.) I am not telling you they make big extracted reds, but what on
earth are you expecting for $2 a bottle? To say they are not decent
is just too big a stretch, they are decent table wines if made with
care.

I also have access to Northeastern grapes, which averaged 12 brix and
12.5g/l TA. That was interesting.

All I am saying is you get what you pay for. Access to good fruit is
everything, you can only do so much with average to poor quality
fruit.

The easiest way to tell whether someone likes a wine is if they ask
for a second bottle and I give a lot of wine away that started out as
Regina juice.

I'm not trying to be testy here, I just think Regina makes good wine
at a very good price. The Syrah seems to be the best from my
persective.
Regards,
Joe


As for the Regina juice, you'll have to let us know how that turns
> out. I have a hard time believing that any red wine made from juice
> alone (no skins) will be truly decent in comparison to those made the
> normal way (fermented on the skins).

Yeah, I don't expect miracles here for $2/bottle. I think we would
like to end up being able to make several consistently good varieties.
I'd like to have a good Zin around (I used to buy Ravenswood $8
bottles by the case when I lived in the Bay Area.) Now they cost $12
outside Philadelphia and the whole winemaking process is great fun so
I'm striving to make more or less a replacement for that (though not
holding my breath). And a good chianti-style table/house red.

The reds and a decent 'every day' buttery Napa region (ala Rutherford
Hill/Cuvaison/Clos Pegase wineries) Chardonnay and I'd be pretty happy
for now. The Brew King Ltd. Ed. Napa Valley Chardonnay was my first
kit and came out well. Followed by Luna Biancha and I think a blend
of the two would fit my taste perfectly. I'm still letting them age
(and letting the oak mellow out in the LB) so perhaps I'll have a
better idea in 6 months?

I took a sniff in my Spagnols Amarone carboy last night and ooooh that
smells good. But it's only a few months old and still in the carboy
so I don't know what to expect there, either. The Zin was started in
April 2003 and bottled I think around June. When I opened a bottle a
few weeks ago the aromatics and flavor were noticably better/less
harsh so I'm optimistic. I'll report in next year or so when the
Regina's been bottled and aged for a while. It's fascinating to
smell/taste what happens to this stuff over time.

I think for me making wine from fresh grapes is inevitable in a few
years. Richard, please don't encourage me or my apartment will turn
into a winery.

Thanks for your thoughts!

Brandon


On 18 Nov 2003 02:55:33 -0800, (Joe Sallustio)
wrote:

>Well, come to Pittsburgh then and see for yourself. We do not have
>access to high quality grapes unless you are willing to pay Brehm
>prices. I am not.
>
>I make reds from Regina and also buy Central Valley grapes. I have
>tried extended maceration, and see no major improvement. What I did
>this year was add the grape must to the juice, (It was all Cab this
>year.) I am not telling you they make big extracted reds, but what on
>earth are you expecting for $2 a bottle? To say they are not decent
>is just too big a stretch, they are decent table wines if made with
>care.
>
>I also have access to Northeastern grapes, which averaged 12 brix and
>12.5g/l TA. That was interesting.
>
>All I am saying is you get what you pay for. Access to good fruit is
>everything, you can only do so much with average to poor quality
>fruit.
>
>The easiest way to tell whether someone likes a wine is if they ask
>for a second bottle and I give a lot of wine away that started out as
>Regina juice.
>
>I'm not trying to be testy here, I just think Regina makes good wine
>at a very good price. The Syrah seems to be the best from my
>persective.
>Regards,
>Joe
>
>
> As for the Regina juice, you'll have to let us know how that turns
>> out. I have a hard time believing that any red wine made from juice
>> alone (no skins) will be truly decent in comparison to those made the
>> normal way (fermented on the skins).

I have found that Regina's and Lucerne are superior to Alexanders red juice.
Tim
> Trevor, I concur with everything that you've said about the Brew King
> kits, except possibly the part about them being the best kits. So far
> the Cellar Craft WA State Merlot I started in the spring seems more
> promising, but still needs age to know for sure.
>
> I did one of these Zin kits when they first came out (fermented it
> 08/2001). I would say that it's the most enjoyable BK red kit I've
> done (out of 6, most of which were other top-of-the-line ones). It
> does have quite a bit of true Zinfandel character to it, but it too
> lacks the freshness of any Zin made from fresh grapes. I think the
> primary problem is lack of aromatics. But it's still quite an
> enjoyable everyday wine.
>
> The last couple of years I've been making most of my wine from cheap
> central CA valley grapes. I didn't do Zin last year but did this year
> with an extended maceration, and the results so far seem vastly more
> promising than the BK kit and also the most promising of any of my
> grape wines to date. It seems to be the only central valley varietal
> that I've done so far that stands well on its own and doesn't cry out
> for blending. At this point I'm thinking that I'll probably buy only
> Zin from the central valley fruit in the next couple of years, and for
> other varieties try getting some fruit from the interior of BC.
>
> As for the Regina juice, you'll have to let us know how that turns
> out. I have a hard time believing that any red wine made from juice
> alone (no skins) will be truly decent in comparison to those made the
> normal way (fermented on the skins). You (Brandon) should consider
> trying to get the grapes themselves instead of the juice. The price
> will still be significantly cheaper than the kits or juice -- if you
> ignore the up-front cost of the equipment required, most of which will
> last a lifetime...
>
> Cheers!
> Richard
>
> "Pinky" > wrote in message >...
> > Well I, for one, would be interested in the result of your comparison.
> > Especially with the cost difference. I have commented before on the high
> > cost of the Estate Series and feel that they are over priced.
> >
> > Although most of the red wine I make now is from BK Selection international
> > etc I am always just a tad dissatisfied with the end result. I would
> > qualify that. I have found that the Selection series together with their
> > Limited edition kits give me the best result for red wine of any kit I have
> > ever used -- except there is always that"je ne sais quoi" element in the
> > end product which I blame on the method of extracting and fixing the
> > colour of the juice -- presumably some sort of heat treatment. I have made
> > just one kit of the Zin Old Vines Estate Series and it is under wraps for
> > another six months more before I bottle. I will give some opinion on the
> > wine then
> >
> > I also tend to use a yeast of my own selection rather than the "never fail,
> > overpower anything, yeast" that comes with the kit --which seems to produce
> > a sameness regardless of the type of juice provided

You will probably prefer that Regina Zin with oak, I like Ravenswood
too. I use about 25 grams of Stavin beans per gallon on a red, but
most people will tell you that is too much, so maybe start with half
and see what you think. If you want to use chips, they work well too.
I use at least a medium toast. I don't like the sawdust, but that is
personal preference.

I make a Cab blend of Cab Sauv and Cab Franc with some Syrah at times
from Regina; I have made most of the reds they sell. I think the best
unblended ones are Syrah and Zin, so you will probably like what you
are making.
Regards,
Joe


Brandon Greimann > wrote in message >. ..
> Yeah, I don't expect miracles here for $2/bottle. I think we would
> like to end up being able to make several consistently good varieties.
> I'd like to have a good Zin around (I used to buy Ravenswood $8
> bottles by the case when I lived in the Bay Area.) Now they cost $12
> outside Philadelphia and the whole winemaking process is great fun so
> I'm striving to make more or less a replacement for that (though not
> holding my breath). And a good chianti-style table/house red.
>
> The reds and a decent 'every day' buttery Napa region (ala Rutherford
> Hill/Cuvaison/Clos Pegase wineries) Chardonnay and I'd be pretty happy
> for now. The Brew King Ltd. Ed. Napa Valley Chardonnay was my first
> kit and came out well. Followed by Luna Biancha and I think a blend
> of the two would fit my taste perfectly. I'm still letting them age
> (and letting the oak mellow out in the LB) so perhaps I'll have a
> better idea in 6 months?
>
> I took a sniff in my Spagnols Amarone carboy last night and ooooh that
> smells good. But it's only a few months old and still in the carboy
> so I don't know what to expect there, either. The Zin was started in
> April 2003 and bottled I think around June. When I opened a bottle a
> few weeks ago the aromatics and flavor were noticably better/less
> harsh so I'm optimistic. I'll report in next year or so when the
> Regina's been bottled and aged for a while. It's fascinating to
> smell/taste what happens to this stuff over time.
>
> I think for me making wine from fresh grapes is inevitable in a few
> years. Richard, please don't encourage me or my apartment will turn
> into a winery.
>
> Thanks for your thoughts!
>
> Brandon
>
>
> On 18 Nov 2003 02:55:33 -0800, (Joe Sallustio)
> wrote:
>
> >Well, come to Pittsburgh then and see for yourself. We do not have
> >access to high quality grapes unless you are willing to pay Brehm
> >prices. I am not.
> >
> >I make reds from Regina and also buy Central Valley grapes. I have
> >tried extended maceration, and see no major improvement. What I did
> >this year was add the grape must to the juice, (It was all Cab this
> >year.) I am not telling you they make big extracted reds, but what on
> >earth are you expecting for $2 a bottle? To say they are not decent
> >is just too big a stretch, they are decent table wines if made with
> >care.
> >
> >I also have access to Northeastern grapes, which averaged 12 brix and
> >12.5g/l TA. That was interesting.
> >
> >All I am saying is you get what you pay for. Access to good fruit is
> >everything, you can only do so much with average to poor quality
> >fruit.
> >
> >The easiest way to tell whether someone likes a wine is if they ask
> >for a second bottle and I give a lot of wine away that started out as
> >Regina juice.
> >
> >I'm not trying to be testy here, I just think Regina makes good wine
> >at a very good price. The Syrah seems to be the best from my
> >persective.
> >Regards,
> >Joe
> >
> >
> > As for the Regina juice, you'll have to let us know how that turns
> >> out. I have a hard time believing that any red wine made from juice
> >> alone (no skins) will be truly decent in comparison to those made the
> >> normal way (fermented on the skins).