Help

I have a red wine in carboys plus some top off. The top off now
has a mold or bacteria layer on the surface. I was advised to make a
sulfite solution and spray in over the layer. I did that but with no
results. I then racked the two carboys (5 and 2.8g), cleaned the
carboys and checked the sulfites. The sulfites were at 50ppm so I put
the wine back into the cleaned carboys. Now both of them are beginning
to show a white film on the surface.
Any suggestions? This wine is an experimental for our organization
and I don't want to lose it.
Thanks in advance,
JoAnn Mantych (JAM)

"JoAnn" wrote:

I have a red wine in carboys plus some top off. The top off now
has a mold or bacteria layer on the surface. I was advised to make a
sulfite solution and spray in over the layer. I did that but with no
results. I then racked the two carboys (5 and 2.8g), cleaned the
carboys and checked the sulfites. The sulfites were at 50ppm so I put
the wine back into the cleaned carboys. Now both of them are beginning
to show a white film on the surface.

1) Remove as much of the surface film as possible with a spoon or turkey
baster.

2) Rack the wine --- straining it through a coffee filter or muslin
cloth --- into clean and STERILIZED carboys.

3) Add 100 ppm (~2 campden tablets, or 2 tsp. 10% metabisulfite solution,
per gallon) to the carboy, preferably just before racking.

4) Make certain the carboys are properly topped up and properly sealed with
airtight bungs or airlocks (which should be sanitized prior to use).

"JoAnn" wrote in message
om...
Help

I have a red wine in carboys plus some top off. The top off now
has a mold or bacteria layer on the surface. I was advised to make a
sulfite solution and spray in over the layer. I did that but with no
results. I then racked the two carboys (5 and 2.8g), cleaned the
carboys and checked the sulfites. The sulfites were at 50ppm so I put
the wine back into the cleaned carboys. Now both of them are beginning
to show a white film on the surface.
Any suggestions? This wine is an experimental for our organization
and I don't want to lose it.
Thanks in advance,

Hiya, JoAnn

Unless you can identify the problem as a film yeast or something
non-susceptible you might try adding up to 400ppm of Lysozyme too- On the
chance that whatever is infecting your wine is susceptible. Of course if
you want to know for sure you'd need a microscope to identify the little
bugs and a trial to see if it works, and if ML hasn't finished and you want
it to you can't add lysozyme, but it may help otherwise.

Regards,

John

Hi,
Thanks for tha advice but I do not have access to lysonme. I will
rack and sulfite the stuff.
JAM

"JoAnn" wrote in message
om...
Hi,
Thanks for tha advice but I do not have access to lysonme. I will
rack and sulfite the stuff.

They do stock it at www.piwine.com, although their version is called
lactizyme or something like that. It's relatively expensive, but I keep
some on hand to prevent ML in whites and in case of stuck fermentations
(though I've never had one). Still, you'll probably be OK with 100 ppm of
sulfite and a careful racking.

Good luck,

John

"John DeFiore" wrote in message
...


They do stock it at www.piwine.com, although their version is called
lactizyme or something like that. It's relatively expensive, but I keep
some on hand to prevent ML in whites and in case of stuck fermentations
(though I've never had one). Still, you'll probably be OK with 100 ppm of
sulfite and a careful racking.

I don't know if I'm getting the same stuff as Joann but I have a problem
with recurring film yeasts with my reds, too.

I have sucked off the top (probably a poor turn of phrase but you know what
I mean), sanitized, racked, sulfited, lysozymed, topped up, etc etc and the
problem has a way of coming back.

Whatever it is, there is a strong sherry nose at the surface, although
samples taken from below are fine. I suspect it is an agent that is not
affected by lysozyme, a flor yeast of some type.

It is extremely annoying, to say the least.

Brian

"Brian Lundeen" wrote in message
...
I don't know if I'm getting the same stuff as Joann but I have a problem
with recurring film yeasts with my reds, too.

I have sucked off the top (probably a poor turn of phrase but you know
what
I mean), sanitized, racked, sulfited, lysozymed, topped up, etc etc and
the
problem has a way of coming back.

Whatever it is, there is a strong sherry nose at the surface, although
samples taken from below are fine. I suspect it is an agent that is not
affected by lysozyme, a flor yeast of some type.

It is extremely annoying, to say the least.

Yep, lysozyme has no effect on yeasts, so it doesn't work against film
yeasts or brett. Likewise it has no effect on acetobacter. It's good
against lactobacillus and some other nasty critters but it's no magic
bullet. Nevertheless, I've started adding it to all my wines at about
200ppm after completion of ML, since it can help prevent some kinds of
instability and to me has no impact at all on flavor.

Regards,

John

Brian Lundeen wrote:

I don't know if I'm getting the same stuff as Joann but I have a problem
with recurring film yeasts with my reds, too.

Have you tried anti-flor tablets? They are designed to inhibt flor yeast
formations.


--
charles

"Once ... in the wilds of Afghanistan, I lost my corkscrew, and we were
forced to live on nothing but food and water for days."
- W.C. Fields

Charles, where do you find the anti flor tablets. There used to be a product
from Italy called Flor stop(I think). I can't find it any more! Would like
to be able to control this film that several ( including me ) encounter in
red wines.

--
Regards,
Rex Franklin
"Charles H" wrote in message
...
Brian Lundeen wrote:

I don't know if I'm getting the same stuff as Joann but I have a problem
with recurring film yeasts with my reds, too.

Have you tried anti-flor tablets? They are designed to inhibt flor yeast
formations.


--
charles

"Once ... in the wilds of Afghanistan, I lost my corkscrew, and we were
forced to live on nothing but food and water for days."
- W.C. Fields

Rex Franklin wrote:

Charles, where do you find the anti flor tablets. There used to be a product
from Italy called Flor stop(I think). I can't find it any more! Would like
to be able to control this film that several ( including me ) encounter in
red wines.

I'm sure you could order it from piwine.com or if you're in Canada, I
think both watson's and funk winemaking carry them as well. Try
google.com as well, I'm sure there are more dealers. HTH

--
charles

"Once ... in the wilds of Afghanistan, I lost my corkscrew, and we were
forced to live on nothing but food and water for days."
- W.C. Fields

Brian Lundeen wrote:

I don't know if I'm getting the same stuff as Joann but I have a problem
with recurring film yeasts with my reds, too.

If you maintain correct SO2 levels for your wine's pH and keep the
containers topped up and airtight this shouldn't be an issue. BTW, airlocks
aren't as good as a solid bung.

Tom S

I've had this with some of my reds. Never a problem with any of my whites,
knock on wood, and has only happened with moderately low alcohol wines, 10%
or so. Fortifying with some alcohol may also help inhibit this yeast, or
freeze concentrate it into some port wine -- sure to kill whatever it is.


I spent a lot of time and effort fighting with this problem, worrying about
it, racking it every few weeks to try and rid the next layer of film off the
top. No luck. My worst batch (and my first occourance of this) I sulphited
to 175 ppm. Y'know what? The sulphite wouldn't touch it. In my case it
was some kind of film yeast that was resistant to high sulphite levels.
None of my airlocks have been compromised and were within a 1/2" from the
surface with a tight seal, yet it would still grow, and the film would
return yet again.

In the worst case batch, where I had 175 ppm, it just wouldn't stop. In a
week after racking, it would form a film on the surface on the neck of the
carboy, about 1/2" thick! This stuff was seriously infected. Oddly enough,
I tasted it, and it tasted fine. Maybe this is some kind of sherry yeast,
but the red really mellowed out and I thought it benefitted the wine, for
what it was worth. I ended up buying a Buon Vino wine filter. I used a #2
filter once, waited a few weeks, noticed it was just starting to come back,
and then filtered it once more with another #2. Then I added some food
grade hydrogen peroxide to bring the sulphite down, and I bottled it. Oddly
enough, considering all the torture this went through, it ended up tasting
pretty good, and it didn't get filmy in the bottle.

I think the moral of the story is, whatever this stuff is, it doesn't seem
to be catastrophic. Also, IMO, no drinkable amounts of sulphite or air
tightness can help get this under control.. for whatever reason, it's not
where the problem lies. Racking it excessively could increase exposure to
air and make it worse. Adding 1/2" of mineral oil on the top of the wine
did seem to inhibit this problem a bit in the worst case batch, but it might
be overkill, and was a bit troublesome to rack off the oil afterwards. Even
with mineral oil on top, and then a good airlock on top of that, with 1/8"
airspace, it would still form 1/8" thick film underneath the mineral oil
after a week! There is only so much patience you have to use a turkey
baster!

IMO, the best solution seems to be run it through an ordinary #2 wine filter
as soon as you see it, hope it doesn't build up too much while bulk aging,
and then filter again before bottling. You could consider fortifying as
well. But don't sweat this problem. Cross your fingers and hopefully it
won't form in the bottle. I don't know how to effectively deal with it
without filtering and/or fortifying. As I said, I've tried everything from
175 PPM to using mineral oil, and it sure didn't help.. Once it has got a
solid footholding, it is very hard to stop, but even then, it's apparently
not catastrophic. The sooner you filter, the better, but you may not need
to go to a sterile filter to get this under control, even in the worst case
scenario like I had above.

LG

"Brian Lundeen" wrote:

"John DeFiore" wrote in message
...

They do stock it at www.piwine.com, although their version is called
lactizyme or something like that. It's relatively expensive, but I keep
some on hand to prevent ML in whites and in case of stuck fermentations
(though I've never had one). Still, you'll probably be OK with 100 ppm of
sulfite and a careful racking.

I don't know if I'm getting the same stuff as Joann but I have a problem
with recurring film yeasts with my reds, too.

I have sucked off the top (probably a poor turn of phrase but you know what
I mean), sanitized, racked, sulfited, lysozymed, topped up, etc etc and the
problem has a way of coming back.

Whatever it is, there is a strong sherry nose at the surface, although
samples taken from below are fine. I suspect it is an agent that is not
affected by lysozyme, a flor yeast of some type.

It is extremely annoying, to say the least.

Brian

"LG" wrote in message
...
I've had this with some of my reds. Never a problem with any of my
whites,
knock on wood, and has only happened with moderately low alcohol wines,
10%
or so. Fortifying with some alcohol may also help inhibit this yeast, or
freeze concentrate it into some port wine -- sure to kill whatever it is.


I spent a lot of time and effort fighting with this problem, worrying
about
it, racking it every few weeks to try and rid the next layer of film off
the
top. No luck. My worst batch (and my first occourance of this) I
sulphited
to 175 ppm. Y'know what? The sulphite wouldn't touch it.

I suspect that you added 175 ppm of dead sulfite to your wine.

Potassium metabisulfite, potassium sulfite, sodium sulfite - they're all
reactive to air. If you've had this stuff for any length of time,
particularly in a loosely sealed container (plastic bag, plastic tub etc.)
it's probably all gone over to the sulfate, which is totally inert. If
you're using a stock solution that's been sitting around awhile, the same
applies.

I've never seen a wine that had been properly sulfited and kept topped up
that could grow _anything_ on its surface.

Just to be sure, do a Ripper test on the wine (look it up). I'd bet your
free SO2 is zero, or close to it.

Tom S

"Tom S" wrote:

I suspect that you added 175 ppm of dead sulfite to your wine.

Potassium metabisulfite, potassium sulfite, sodium sulfite - they're all
reactive to air. If you've had this stuff for any length of time,
particularly in a loosely sealed container (plastic bag, plastic tub etc.)
it's probably all gone over to the sulfate, which is totally inert. If
you're using a stock solution that's been sitting around awhile, the same
applies.

I've never seen a wine that had been properly sulfited and kept topped up
that could grow _anything_ on its surface.

Just to be sure, do a Ripper test on the wine (look it up). I'd bet your
free SO2 is zero, or close to it.

Tom S

I used Titretes (sp?) to check it, and it was off the scale. It was so
strong with sulphite (in taste & smell) it was totally undrinkable. It was
only until I added hydrogen peroxide that I could even think about drinking
it. The sulphite I added was about 2 months old, from a sealed packet
purchased not long before -- but I could entertain the idea that it could
have been poor or old from the factory/supplier. If the sulphite converted
to sulfate, would it still have a horrible smell and taste awful, and would
the peroxide help fix it, even though it was inert? I was also suspicious
that the formations on the top of the wine could be some kind of deposit of
some sort, that wasn't anything that was growing at all, but I'm not sure
what that would be, and doubtful because it seemed to be growing as opposed
to throwing some kind of deposit.

LG

"LG" wrote in message
...
"Tom S" wrote:

I suspect that you added 175 ppm of dead sulfite to your wine.

I used Titretes (sp?) to check it, and it was off the scale. It was so
strong with sulphite (in taste & smell) it was totally undrinkable. It
was
only until I added hydrogen peroxide that I could even think about
drinking
it.

Well it sounds like your sulfite is up to snuff anyway. I can't imagine
anything being able to grow in something that has so much sulfite you can't
drink it. Sorry that's not much help...

Tom S