Hi All,

I started fermenting 12 gallons of Chardonnay juice yesterday and have a
concern I wanted to pose to the experts of the group.

The juice was purchased with the following readings:

Brix: 19.2 TA: 1.125 PH: 2.95

I added 4.5lbs of Dextrose and 61.2g of potassium bicarbonate. My Brix
reading using a hydrometer differed slightly than that of the vineyard, so I
followed my gut and relied on my readings. cringe Anyway... after all my
bench trials and additions, I ended up with the following readings:

Brix: 24 TA: .95 PH: 3.28 SG: 1.098 Potential Alcohol: 13.5%

It's been about 30 hours since pitching the yeast (CY-3079) and it's
bubbling away quite nicely, to say the least. (Blew half the vodka out of
the airlock overnight!)

A little while ago I took the following measurements:

Brix: 21.5 PH: 3.17

I'm concerned about the PH... I assume it's dropping due to an increase
in acidity. My aim was to get the PH between 3.2 and 3.4 so when I pitch
the ML bacteria (Enoferm Alpha) the PH will be within an acceptable range.
As it is now, if the acidity continues to rise and the PH falls below 3.1, I
have a problem.

I didn't want to have to add more potassium bicarbonate after
fermentation. What should I do??? Does anyone have any recommendations or
will the levels balance-out? It's fermenting rapidly. Within a week I
would assume I'll have to pitch the bacteria.

Advice welcome!

-Paul

"Paul S. Remington" wrote in message
...
Hi All,

I started fermenting 12 gallons of Chardonnay juice yesterday and have
a
concern I wanted to pose to the experts of the group.

The juice was purchased with the following readings:

Brix: 19.2 TA: 1.125 PH: 2.95

I added 4.5lbs of Dextrose and 61.2g of potassium bicarbonate. My
Brix
reading using a hydrometer differed slightly than that of the vineyard, so
I
followed my gut and relied on my readings. cringe Anyway... after all
my
bench trials and additions, I ended up with the following readings:

Brix: 24 TA: .95 PH: 3.28 SG: 1.098 Potential Alcohol: 13.5%

It's been about 30 hours since pitching the yeast (CY-3079) and it's
bubbling away quite nicely, to say the least. (Blew half the vodka out of
the airlock overnight!)

A little while ago I took the following measurements:

Brix: 21.5 PH: 3.17

I'm concerned about the PH... I assume it's dropping due to an
increase
in acidity. My aim was to get the PH between 3.2 and 3.4 so when I pitch
the ML bacteria (Enoferm Alpha) the PH will be within an acceptable range.
As it is now, if the acidity continues to rise and the PH falls below 3.1,
I
have a problem.

I didn't want to have to add more potassium bicarbonate after
fermentation. What should I do??? Does anyone have any recommendations
or
will the levels balance-out? It's fermenting rapidly. Within a week I
would assume I'll have to pitch the bacteria.

If I were you, I'd hit it with ML _now_! I might also bump it a little more
with KHCO3, but you're pretty close to reasonable numbers now. Early
inoculation for ML takes advantage of the heat spike in the early stages of
fermentation; ML likes it _warm_. With luck, the ML will complete soon
after the primary. Add Leucofood and Leucovit if you have them, and stir
the lees once in awhile while the ML is still active.

Tom S

WOW! I wish you warned me about the CO2 expulsion. I just added 20.4g
of KHCO3 and holy jumpin' Jesus!!! I was greeted with an explosion of CO2
that send foam flowing like a volcano out of the top of the demijohn!
Luckily, I had a towelI use to cover the demijohn during the day next to
me... it avoided a serious mess!

I recalibrated my PH meter and before adding the KHCO3 the new reading
was 3.08, much lower than I previously stated. The PH is now at around
3.15. Should I hit it with more? I don't know how long it takes to "hold"
after adding it to the wine. I took a sample after about 5 minutes
following the addition (and cleanup). :-)

What is your recommendation?

As for the bacteria, I was following the manufacturer's recommendation,
which was to wait until after fermentation has completed. Doesn't this have
to do with the development of Diacetyl or competing with nutrients,
something? I plan to add Fermaid K after an 8 brix drop. Is there a risk
to adding the bacteria earlier? I can add it now... I guess I'm following
"the book," since I'm new at this.

Thanks for sharing your experience...

-Paul


"Tom S" wrote in message
om...

"Paul S. Remington" wrote in message
...
Hi All,

I started fermenting 12 gallons of Chardonnay juice yesterday and
have
a
concern I wanted to pose to the experts of the group.

The juice was purchased with the following readings:

Brix: 19.2 TA: 1.125 PH: 2.95

I added 4.5lbs of Dextrose and 61.2g of potassium bicarbonate. My
Brix
reading using a hydrometer differed slightly than that of the vineyard,
so
I
followed my gut and relied on my readings. cringe Anyway... after all
my
bench trials and additions, I ended up with the following readings:

Brix: 24 TA: .95 PH: 3.28 SG: 1.098 Potential Alcohol: 13.5%

It's been about 30 hours since pitching the yeast (CY-3079) and it's
bubbling away quite nicely, to say the least. (Blew half the vodka out
of
the airlock overnight!)

A little while ago I took the following measurements:

Brix: 21.5 PH: 3.17

I'm concerned about the PH... I assume it's dropping due to an
increase
in acidity. My aim was to get the PH between 3.2 and 3.4 so when I
pitch
the ML bacteria (Enoferm Alpha) the PH will be within an acceptable
range.
As it is now, if the acidity continues to rise and the PH falls below
3.1,
I
have a problem.

I didn't want to have to add more potassium bicarbonate after
fermentation. What should I do??? Does anyone have any recommendations
or
will the levels balance-out? It's fermenting rapidly. Within a week I
would assume I'll have to pitch the bacteria.

If I were you, I'd hit it with ML _now_! I might also bump it a little
more
with KHCO3, but you're pretty close to reasonable numbers now. Early
inoculation for ML takes advantage of the heat spike in the early stages
of
fermentation; ML likes it _warm_. With luck, the ML will complete soon
after the primary. Add Leucofood and Leucovit if you have them, and stir
the lees once in awhile while the ML is still active.

Tom S

Update: Added an additional 20.4g (40.8g total) of potassium
bicarbonate. New Ph reading is: 3.22.

-Paul

"Tom S" wrote in message
om...

"Paul S. Remington" wrote in message
...
Hi All,

I started fermenting 12 gallons of Chardonnay juice yesterday and
have
a
concern I wanted to pose to the experts of the group.

The juice was purchased with the following readings:

Brix: 19.2 TA: 1.125 PH: 2.95

I added 4.5lbs of Dextrose and 61.2g of potassium bicarbonate. My
Brix
reading using a hydrometer differed slightly than that of the vineyard,
so
I
followed my gut and relied on my readings. cringe Anyway... after all
my
bench trials and additions, I ended up with the following readings:

Brix: 24 TA: .95 PH: 3.28 SG: 1.098 Potential Alcohol: 13.5%

It's been about 30 hours since pitching the yeast (CY-3079) and it's
bubbling away quite nicely, to say the least. (Blew half the vodka out
of
the airlock overnight!)

A little while ago I took the following measurements:

Brix: 21.5 PH: 3.17

I'm concerned about the PH... I assume it's dropping due to an
increase
in acidity. My aim was to get the PH between 3.2 and 3.4 so when I
pitch
the ML bacteria (Enoferm Alpha) the PH will be within an acceptable
range.
As it is now, if the acidity continues to rise and the PH falls below
3.1,
I
have a problem.

I didn't want to have to add more potassium bicarbonate after
fermentation. What should I do??? Does anyone have any recommendations
or
will the levels balance-out? It's fermenting rapidly. Within a week I
would assume I'll have to pitch the bacteria.

If I were you, I'd hit it with ML _now_! I might also bump it a little
more
with KHCO3, but you're pretty close to reasonable numbers now. Early
inoculation for ML takes advantage of the heat spike in the early stages
of
fermentation; ML likes it _warm_. With luck, the ML will complete soon
after the primary. Add Leucofood and Leucovit if you have them, and stir
the lees once in awhile while the ML is still active.

Tom S

"Paul S. Remington" wrote in message
...
Update: Added an additional 20.4g (40.8g total) of potassium
bicarbonate. New Ph reading is: 3.22.

Leave it alone now. It's not a good idea to get too "busy" with wines.

Tom S

"Paul S. Remington" wrote in message
...
WOW! I wish you warned me about the CO2 expulsion. I just added
20.4g
of KHCO3 and holy jumpin' Jesus!!! I was greeted with an explosion of CO2
that send foam flowing like a volcano out of the top of the demijohn!

LOL! I saw the same thing happen a couple of weeks ago at a commercial
winery when someone decided to adjust the pH the _other_ direction with
tartaric acid. It was a 5000 gallon tank of white wine that was in
mid-fermentation. Sounded like a jet plane kicking in the afterburners as
it shot a fountain of foam out of the manway!

As for the bacteria, I was following the manufacturer's
recommendation,
which was to wait until after fermentation has completed. Doesn't this
have
to do with the development of Diacetyl or competing with nutrients,
something?

Competition for nutrients is an issue with some strains of yeast -
particularly Bayanus (e.g., Prise de Mousse). That's why I recommended
adding ML nutrient and vitamins. You can add the ML later, but I follow the
Wine Lab's recommendations on that and add just as the yeast is taking off.

I plan to add Fermaid K after an 8 brix drop. Is there a risk
to adding the bacteria earlier?

I've heard things about increased production of VA when inoculating for ML
early, but I have had no such problems.

Tom S

Hello Paul,

I suggest you use a bit of patience here and let your wine ferment out
before making any further adjustments to your pH/acidity. I believe
dissolved CO2 from fermentation can cause the pH of the juice to decrease
which effect will be eliminated after fermentation and degassing. As far as
ML is concerned, I would again wait until fermentation is complete to
determine if you even want to induce ML. After many years of drinking wines
from California especially, I personally have come to prefer non-ML
chardonnay. It seems to age much better than the heavily oaked and buttery
(from ML) versions. Additionally, wines with a high malic acid content can
give a disagreeably strong diacetyl (buttery) aroma if they undergo ML
fermentation. If you decide you want to prevent ML altogether and try a
more steely dry chardonnay style, use a very small amount of oak and hit it
with 500ppm lysozyme.

By the way, if you continue your winemaking endeavors and obtain white juice
as you described in the future (low sugar, high acid), consider making a
sparkling wine. That juice would have made a fine base for a sparkler!

Good Luck and CHEERS!

Aaron

"Paul S. Remington" wrote in message
...
WOW! I wish you warned me about the CO2 expulsion. I just added
20.4g
of KHCO3 and holy jumpin' Jesus!!! I was greeted with an explosion of CO2
that send foam flowing like a volcano out of the top of the demijohn!
Luckily, I had a towelI use to cover the demijohn during the day next to
me... it avoided a serious mess!

I recalibrated my PH meter and before adding the KHCO3 the new reading
was 3.08, much lower than I previously stated. The PH is now at around
3.15. Should I hit it with more? I don't know how long it takes to
"hold"
after adding it to the wine. I took a sample after about 5 minutes
following the addition (and cleanup). :-)

What is your recommendation?

As for the bacteria, I was following the manufacturer's
recommendation,
which was to wait until after fermentation has completed. Doesn't this
have
to do with the development of Diacetyl or competing with nutrients,
something? I plan to add Fermaid K after an 8 brix drop. Is there a risk
to adding the bacteria earlier? I can add it now... I guess I'm following
"the book," since I'm new at this.

Thanks for sharing your experience...

-Paul


"Tom S" wrote in message
om...

"Paul S. Remington" wrote in message
...
Hi All,

I started fermenting 12 gallons of Chardonnay juice yesterday and
have
a
concern I wanted to pose to the experts of the group.

The juice was purchased with the following readings:

Brix: 19.2 TA: 1.125 PH: 2.95

I added 4.5lbs of Dextrose and 61.2g of potassium bicarbonate. My
Brix
reading using a hydrometer differed slightly than that of the
vineyard,
so
I
followed my gut and relied on my readings. cringe Anyway... after
all
my
bench trials and additions, I ended up with the following readings:

Brix: 24 TA: .95 PH: 3.28 SG: 1.098 Potential Alcohol:
13.5%

It's been about 30 hours since pitching the yeast (CY-3079) and
it's
bubbling away quite nicely, to say the least. (Blew half the vodka
out
of
the airlock overnight!)

A little while ago I took the following measurements:

Brix: 21.5 PH: 3.17

I'm concerned about the PH... I assume it's dropping due to an
increase
in acidity. My aim was to get the PH between 3.2 and 3.4 so when I
pitch
the ML bacteria (Enoferm Alpha) the PH will be within an acceptable
range.
As it is now, if the acidity continues to rise and the PH falls below
3.1,
I
have a problem.

I didn't want to have to add more potassium bicarbonate after
fermentation. What should I do??? Does anyone have any
recommendations
or
will the levels balance-out? It's fermenting rapidly. Within a week
I
would assume I'll have to pitch the bacteria.

If I were you, I'd hit it with ML _now_! I might also bump it a little
more
with KHCO3, but you're pretty close to reasonable numbers now. Early
inoculation for ML takes advantage of the heat spike in the early stages
of
fermentation; ML likes it _warm_. With luck, the ML will complete soon
after the primary. Add Leucofood and Leucovit if you have them, and
stir
the lees once in awhile while the ML is still active.

Tom S

Hi Aaron... thanks for your comments.

Based on my tastes for Chardonnay, I specifically wanted to do ML. I
don't care for fruit-forward Chardonnay or the overly dry, light,
non-complex ones. I LOVE a Chardonnay that has a pronounced butter and oak
base with fruity highlights underneath... I like it complex. The California
Chardonnays are some of my favorites, like Kendall Jackson and Toasted
Head.

So, I added four cups (10oz) of Stavin medium toast+ French oak, which
I'll leave in through long term aging. I figured ML with sur lie and
batonnage should add the butter and complexity I enjoy so much.

I like your idea for a sparkling wine... I never thought of that. I've
taken to this hobby like a moth to a flame, so I'll certainly be looking to
explore different types of wines in the future. Thanks for the suggestion.

-Paul

"Aaron Puhala" wrote in message
. ..
Hello Paul,

I suggest you use a bit of patience here and let your wine ferment out
before making any further adjustments to your pH/acidity. I believe
dissolved CO2 from fermentation can cause the pH of the juice to decrease
which effect will be eliminated after fermentation and degassing. As far
as
ML is concerned, I would again wait until fermentation is complete to
determine if you even want to induce ML. After many years of drinking
wines
from California especially, I personally have come to prefer non-ML
chardonnay. It seems to age much better than the heavily oaked and
buttery
(from ML) versions. Additionally, wines with a high malic acid content
can
give a disagreeably strong diacetyl (buttery) aroma if they undergo ML
fermentation. If you decide you want to prevent ML altogether and try a
more steely dry chardonnay style, use a very small amount of oak and hit
it
with 500ppm lysozyme.

By the way, if you continue your winemaking endeavors and obtain white
juice
as you described in the future (low sugar, high acid), consider making a
sparkling wine. That juice would have made a fine base for a sparkler!

Good Luck and CHEERS!

Aaron

"Paul S. Remington" wrote in message
...
WOW! I wish you warned me about the CO2 expulsion. I just added
20.4g
of KHCO3 and holy jumpin' Jesus!!! I was greeted with an explosion of
CO2
that send foam flowing like a volcano out of the top of the demijohn!
Luckily, I had a towelI use to cover the demijohn during the day next to
me... it avoided a serious mess!

I recalibrated my PH meter and before adding the KHCO3 the new
reading
was 3.08, much lower than I previously stated. The PH is now at around
3.15. Should I hit it with more? I don't know how long it takes to
"hold"
after adding it to the wine. I took a sample after about 5 minutes
following the addition (and cleanup). :-)

What is your recommendation?

As for the bacteria, I was following the manufacturer's
recommendation,
which was to wait until after fermentation has completed. Doesn't this
have
to do with the development of Diacetyl or competing with nutrients,
something? I plan to add Fermaid K after an 8 brix drop. Is there a
risk
to adding the bacteria earlier? I can add it now... I guess I'm
following
"the book," since I'm new at this.

Thanks for sharing your experience...

-Paul


"Tom S" wrote in message
om...

"Paul S. Remington" wrote in message
...
Hi All,

I started fermenting 12 gallons of Chardonnay juice yesterday
and
have
a
concern I wanted to pose to the experts of the group.

The juice was purchased with the following readings:

Brix: 19.2 TA: 1.125 PH: 2.95

I added 4.5lbs of Dextrose and 61.2g of potassium bicarbonate.
My
Brix
reading using a hydrometer differed slightly than that of the
vineyard,
so
I
followed my gut and relied on my readings. cringe Anyway... after
all
my
bench trials and additions, I ended up with the following readings:

Brix: 24 TA: .95 PH: 3.28 SG: 1.098 Potential Alcohol:
13.5%

It's been about 30 hours since pitching the yeast (CY-3079) and
it's
bubbling away quite nicely, to say the least. (Blew half the vodka
out
of
the airlock overnight!)

A little while ago I took the following measurements:

Brix: 21.5 PH: 3.17

I'm concerned about the PH... I assume it's dropping due to an
increase
in acidity. My aim was to get the PH between 3.2 and 3.4 so when I
pitch
the ML bacteria (Enoferm Alpha) the PH will be within an acceptable
range.
As it is now, if the acidity continues to rise and the PH falls
below
3.1,
I
have a problem.

I didn't want to have to add more potassium bicarbonate after
fermentation. What should I do??? Does anyone have any
recommendations
or
will the levels balance-out? It's fermenting rapidly. Within a
week
I
would assume I'll have to pitch the bacteria.

If I were you, I'd hit it with ML _now_! I might also bump it a
little
more
with KHCO3, but you're pretty close to reasonable numbers now. Early
inoculation for ML takes advantage of the heat spike in the early
stages
of
fermentation; ML likes it _warm_. With luck, the ML will complete
soon
after the primary. Add Leucofood and Leucovit if you have them, and
stir
the lees once in awhile while the ML is still active.

Tom S

Well... that story makes me feel a little less foolish. :-) But, I
guess this craft is all about trial and error, and making mistakes is just a
part of the learning process. I'll never do that again, I'll tell ya' that
right now! When I added the extra addition of KHCO3, I added it in small
increments, stirring gently. Worked great!

I'm tempted to add the ML bacteria now, as you suggest. Do you know
anything about this strain of yeast (CY3079) and if it might compete with
the Enoferm Alpha? I was originally thinking of following the book on this
one, since it's my first time, then making adjustments on future batches.

But, I respect your experience and approach, so I guess I'm torn.
Hmmm...

-Paul

"Tom S" wrote in message
. ..

"Paul S. Remington" wrote in message
...
WOW! I wish you warned me about the CO2 expulsion. I just added
20.4g
of KHCO3 and holy jumpin' Jesus!!! I was greeted with an explosion of
CO2
that send foam flowing like a volcano out of the top of the demijohn!

LOL! I saw the same thing happen a couple of weeks ago at a commercial
winery when someone decided to adjust the pH the _other_ direction with
tartaric acid. It was a 5000 gallon tank of white wine that was in
mid-fermentation. Sounded like a jet plane kicking in the afterburners as
it shot a fountain of foam out of the manway!

As for the bacteria, I was following the manufacturer's
recommendation,
which was to wait until after fermentation has completed. Doesn't this
have
to do with the development of Diacetyl or competing with nutrients,
something?

Competition for nutrients is an issue with some strains of yeast -
particularly Bayanus (e.g., Prise de Mousse). That's why I recommended
adding ML nutrient and vitamins. You can add the ML later, but I follow
the
Wine Lab's recommendations on that and add just as the yeast is taking
off.

I plan to add Fermaid K after an 8 brix drop. Is there a risk
to adding the bacteria earlier?

I've heard things about increased production of VA when inoculating for ML
early, but I have had no such problems.

Tom S

Noted... Smells pleasantly fruity with a nice balance between sweet and
tart. It makes me nervous to mess with it too much.

-Paul

"Tom S" wrote in message
.. .

"Paul S. Remington" wrote in message
...
Update: Added an additional 20.4g (40.8g total) of potassium
bicarbonate. New Ph reading is: 3.22.

Leave it alone now. It's not a good idea to get too "busy" with wines.

Tom S

"Paul S. Remington" wrote in message
...
I'm tempted to add the ML bacteria now, as you suggest. Do you know
anything about this strain of yeast (CY3079) and if it might compete with
the Enoferm Alpha?

Funny you should ask. I've been using CY3079 for a few years now. It's a
saccharomyces strain, so there's no problem with simultaneous ML. You still
should dose the juice with ML food and vitamins though.

Tom S

Interesting... having never done ML fermentation, I never knew about ML
nutrients until yesterday. I ordered 50g of ACTI-ML yesterday for delivery
by Thursday. I plan to use that during the ML fermentation.

Oh, question... do I need to rack the wine to a smaller vessel that
allows for no airspace at the top? I currently have 12 gallons in a 15
gallon demijohn with a decent amount of airspace. Is this a problem when
doing the ML fermentation?

-Paul

"Tom S" wrote in message
. ..

"Paul S. Remington" wrote in message
...
I'm tempted to add the ML bacteria now, as you suggest. Do you know
anything about this strain of yeast (CY3079) and if it might compete
with
the Enoferm Alpha?

Funny you should ask. I've been using CY3079 for a few years now. It's a
saccharomyces strain, so there's no problem with simultaneous ML. You
still
should dose the juice with ML food and vitamins though.

Tom S

Paul,
You do need to eliminate the majority of that headspace as soon as
Primary fermentation is winding down/done. A ballpark time to do this is
when the gravity gets down around 1.00sg, but opinions vary. MLF is not a
vigorous fermentation and it wont foam up like a sugar fermentation will.HTH
John Dixon
"Paul S. Remington" wrote in message
...
Interesting... having never done ML fermentation, I never knew about
ML
nutrients until yesterday. I ordered 50g of ACTI-ML yesterday for
delivery
by Thursday. I plan to use that during the ML fermentation.

Oh, question... do I need to rack the wine to a smaller vessel that
allows for no airspace at the top? I currently have 12 gallons in a 15
gallon demijohn with a decent amount of airspace. Is this a problem when
doing the ML fermentation?

-Paul

"Tom S" wrote in message
. ..

"Paul S. Remington" wrote in message
...
I'm tempted to add the ML bacteria now, as you suggest. Do you
know
anything about this strain of yeast (CY3079) and if it might compete
with
the Enoferm Alpha?

Funny you should ask. I've been using CY3079 for a few years now. It's
a
saccharomyces strain, so there's no problem with simultaneous ML. You
still
should dose the juice with ML food and vitamins though.

Tom S

Yes it does, John... thank you!

-Paul

"J Dixon" wrote in message
. net...
Paul,
You do need to eliminate the majority of that headspace as soon as
Primary fermentation is winding down/done. A ballpark time to do this is
when the gravity gets down around 1.00sg, but opinions vary. MLF is not a
vigorous fermentation and it wont foam up like a sugar fermentation
will.HTH
John Dixon
"Paul S. Remington" wrote in message
...
Interesting... having never done ML fermentation, I never knew about
ML
nutrients until yesterday. I ordered 50g of ACTI-ML yesterday for
delivery
by Thursday. I plan to use that during the ML fermentation.

Oh, question... do I need to rack the wine to a smaller vessel that
allows for no airspace at the top? I currently have 12 gallons in a 15
gallon demijohn with a decent amount of airspace. Is this a problem
when
doing the ML fermentation?

-Paul

"Tom S" wrote in message
. ..

"Paul S. Remington" wrote in message
...
I'm tempted to add the ML bacteria now, as you suggest. Do you
know
anything about this strain of yeast (CY3079) and if it might compete
with
the Enoferm Alpha?

Funny you should ask. I've been using CY3079 for a few years now.
It's
a
saccharomyces strain, so there's no problem with simultaneous ML. You
still
should dose the juice with ML food and vitamins though.

Tom S

Paul,

You're aware that you need to heat and cool samples of actively
fermenting wine (to drive off CO2) in order to get accurate pH and
acid measurements? I'm guessing you are, but I don't think anyone
else mentioned it in this thread so I thought I should just in case...

Cheers,
Richard

"Paul S. Remington" wrote in message . ..
Noted... Smells pleasantly fruity with a nice balance between sweet and
tart. It makes me nervous to mess with it too much.

-Paul

"Tom S" wrote in message
.. .

"Paul S. Remington" wrote in message
...
Update: Added an additional 20.4g (40.8g total) of potassium
bicarbonate. New Ph reading is: 3.22.

Leave it alone now. It's not a good idea to get too "busy" with wines.

Tom S