Hi all,

I was wondering what the consensus would be here with regard to the
correction of high TA, high pH, *malic dominant* musts (I'm talking at
least 80% of the total acidity is malic).

Say you had a must with pH 3.5, TA 10 g/l (as tartaric), what would
you do?

I await with interest,
Ben

Ben Rotter wrote:

Hi all,

I was wondering what the consensus would be here with regard to the
correction of high TA, high pH, *malic dominant* musts (I'm talking at
least 80% of the total acidity is malic).

Say you had a must with pH 3.5, TA 10 g/l (as tartaric), what would
you do?

I await with interest,
Ben

If the must is high in malic acid, I think an MLF would be in order.
Cold stabilization only percipitates out tataric salts.

I recall reading something about different carbonates taking out
different acids but I can't really provide any information since I don't
really remember what I was reading, sorry.


--
charles

"Once ... in the wilds of Afghanistan, I lost my corkscrew, and we were
forced to live on nothing but food and water for days."
- W.C. Fields

If the must is high in malic acid, I think an MLF would be in order.
Cold stabilization only percipitates out tataric salts.

MLF is a potentially problematic solution because when 80% of your
acidity is malic you have to do a partial MLF. This is risky without
sterile filtration (which most of us non-commercial winemakers don't
have). (Anyone know anything about the effectiveness of stopping MLF
by adding lysozyme to a cultured, vigorous MLF?)

I recall reading something about different carbonates taking out
different acids but I can't really provide any information since I don't
really remember what I was reading, sorry.

If you deacidify with a carbonate you take the pH to an unacceptable
level - this is not a practical solution.

Double salt precipitation (where you raise the pH to drop out calcium
tartrate malate) is not helpful with a must where you don't have
tartaric either.

I appreciate the response, but I was really looking for specific
solutions which targeted the above mentioned problems.

Ben

Ben Rotter wrote in "If you deacidify with a carbonate you take the pH to an
unacceptable level - this is not a practical solution."

Ben - Consider dividing the wine into two fractions. Fraction 1 would
contain the amount of acid you want to remove from the wine. Fraction 2
would contain the desirable amount of acid for the entire wine. Totally
deacidify Fraction 1 with carbonates. When the reaction is complete and the
wine has settled mix the two fractions together. If pH is too high to
begin with make that adjustment before you begin.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas

Hi Ben,
I have had some apple must like that. It was fermented as it came. Then a
tartaric acid addition was made approximately 1 gr per 4 liters and cold
stabilized. The precipitate was very high, more the 5 mm in the 23 liter
carboy. The pH had dropped 0.2 (to 3.3) and the TA was 8. The apple wine was
very good, about half was given out as presents (50). I just did this on a
lark and do not know how or why this improved the wine so much.
Eddie V.
"Ben Rotter" wrote in message
om...
Hi all,

I was wondering what the consensus would be here with regard to the
correction of high TA, high pH, *malic dominant* musts (I'm talking at
least 80% of the total acidity is malic).

Say you had a must with pH 3.5, TA 10 g/l (as tartaric), what would
you do?

I await with interest,
Ben

Ben,
How would you go about determining what percentage of your acid is
Malic? Are you sending out your samples to a lab? My theoretical answer
following my logic would be that if I knew that x was malic acid, and that Y
was tataric, then I would add the additional tataric prefermentation and
precipitate out the excess later. Hypothetical answer only as I have never
broke down the percentages, and only based my additions/reductions based on
ph and ta. Interesting thread, comments please.
John Dixon
"William Frazier" wrote in message
...

Ben Rotter wrote in "If you deacidify with a carbonate you take the pH to
an
unacceptable level - this is not a practical solution."

Ben - Consider dividing the wine into two fractions. Fraction 1 would
contain the amount of acid you want to remove from the wine. Fraction 2
would contain the desirable amount of acid for the entire wine. Totally
deacidify Fraction 1 with carbonates. When the reaction is complete and
the
wine has settled mix the two fractions together. If pH is too high to
begin with make that adjustment before you begin.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas

"Ben Rotter" wrote in message
om...
Hi all,

I was wondering what the consensus would be here with regard to the
correction of high TA, high pH, *malic dominant* musts (I'm talking at
least 80% of the total acidity is malic).

Say you had a must with pH 3.5, TA 10 g/l (as tartaric), what would
you do?

It depends somewhat on whether it's a red or white wine, but I'd probably
hit it with tartaric to get the pH down to something reasonable (3.3?),
ferment it and let the ML go. I'm not a big fan of ML inhibition. I want
my wines to be stable without having to sterile filter or oversulfite them.

Tom S

Thanks everyone for your replies. I will reply by method:

**CARBONATES

Bill Frazier wrote:
Consider dividing the wine into two fractions...

Does dividing and deacidifying give a significantly different pH to
deacidifying it all in one go?

If pH is too high to begin with make that adjustment before you begin.

Are you suggesting I acidify to correct the pH and then deacidify for
TA? Seems counterproductive to me.

**COLD STABILISING

John Dixon wrote:
How would you go about determining what percentage of your acid is
Malic?

I am working with malic fruit (e.g. gooseberries, raspberries, etc) so
it's pretty certain.

I would add the additional tataric prefermentation and
precipitate out the excess later.

As the only method that is not a practical soltuion: you can correct
the pH with the tartaric acid, but once you remove it through cold
stabilising (and that's assuming you even if you manage remove it all)
you still have all the malic you started with.

**MLF

Tom S wrote:
It depends somewhat on whether it's a red or white wine, but I'd probably
hit it with tartaric to get the pH down to something reasonable (3.3?),
ferment it and let the ML go. I'm not a big fan of ML inhibition. I want
my wines to be stable without having to sterile filter or oversulfite them.

Firstly, if you have a malic dominant must then you're basically
suggesting you replace all that malic with tartaric and conduct a full
MLF (that's the only way you'll have secure stability without sterile
filtration). That is a possibility but it would change the acid
profile quite a bit.

Secondly, I'm often dealing with wines I'd rather not put through MLF
anyway (both in terms of the hastle of it and in terms of style), so
if I can find an alternative it'd be nice.

**COMBINED STRATEGIES

I have often thought of combining strategies. For example, you could
lower the pH with tartaric, then deacidify the malic portion of the TA
with MLF, then precipitate some of the tartaric out by cold
stabilising. But (1) this is an incredibly uncertain way of going
about things with all the unknowns on the shifts to both TA and pH
you'd incur, and (2) I'd rather not have to make so many adjustments
(somehow it seems to "damage" the wine).

More interestingly:

(1) you could deacidifying by using yeast 71B-1122. But even that will
only reduce like 20-40% of your malic, and when you have musts at 10
g/l that's just not enough. Anyone have any data on the TA reduction
caused by this in malic-dominant wines BTW?

(2) you could conduct a pre-fermentation biological deacidification of
malic acid by Lactobacillus plantarum. But I've only ever seen it sell
in LARGE packs which I am not prepared to buy.

Lots of ideas and lots of problems. Any solutions?

Thanks for your input,
Ben

Ben, I just saw this thread and I make the following comments:
- assuming that the amount of Malic present is as you say, you have been
given the correct suggestions. Whether you are prepared to implement
them or not, whether they are convenient or not, it's entirely your
decision.
- what type of fruit and what quantity of wine are you making that you
feel "compelled" to use it? Unless there is a reason, other than for
discussion purposes....
- If you must use such an unripe/unsuitable fruit to make wine, then you
are obviously prepared for the result: You MAY be able to make great
wine from great fruit, but you WILL NOT make great wine from poor fruit.
That simple.
- In your case, you do the best things you can (or retain practical),
and pray for a good result:
1. add Tartaric acid to adjust pH to its minimal acceptable level (at
3.5 I would leave it alone!);
2. do a pre-fermentation biological conversion of Malic acid (there are
enzymes also available);
3. use a yeast that 'eats up' Malic during fermentation;
4. provide nutrients and perform MLF (cold stabilisation may not help if
there is no Tartaric);
6. encourage longer lees contact;
7. blend with another fruit, preferably overripe;
8. sweeten/stabilise the wine prior to bottling.
The details of performing each step have been widely discussed in other
threads.

Cheers, Giovanni.


"Ben Rotter" wrote in message
om...
Thanks everyone for your replies. I will reply by method:

**CARBONATES

Bill Frazier wrote:
Consider dividing the wine into two fractions...

Does dividing and deacidifying give a significantly different pH to
deacidifying it all in one go?

If pH is too high to begin with make that adjustment before you
begin.

Are you suggesting I acidify to correct the pH and then deacidify for
TA? Seems counterproductive to me.

**COLD STABILISING

John Dixon wrote:
How would you go about determining what percentage of your acid is
Malic?

I am working with malic fruit (e.g. gooseberries, raspberries, etc) so
it's pretty certain.

I would add the additional tataric prefermentation and
precipitate out the excess later.

As the only method that is not a practical soltuion: you can correct
the pH with the tartaric acid, but once you remove it through cold
stabilising (and that's assuming you even if you manage remove it all)
you still have all the malic you started with.

**MLF

Tom S wrote:
It depends somewhat on whether it's a red or white wine, but I'd
probably
hit it with tartaric to get the pH down to something reasonable
(3.3?),
ferment it and let the ML go. I'm not a big fan of ML inhibition.
I want
my wines to be stable without having to sterile filter or
oversulfite them.

Firstly, if you have a malic dominant must then you're basically
suggesting you replace all that malic with tartaric and conduct a full
MLF (that's the only way you'll have secure stability without sterile
filtration). That is a possibility but it would change the acid
profile quite a bit.

Secondly, I'm often dealing with wines I'd rather not put through MLF
anyway (both in terms of the hastle of it and in terms of style), so
if I can find an alternative it'd be nice.

**COMBINED STRATEGIES

I have often thought of combining strategies. For example, you could
lower the pH with tartaric, then deacidify the malic portion of the TA
with MLF, then precipitate some of the tartaric out by cold
stabilising. But (1) this is an incredibly uncertain way of going
about things with all the unknowns on the shifts to both TA and pH
you'd incur, and (2) I'd rather not have to make so many adjustments
(somehow it seems to "damage" the wine).

More interestingly:

(1) you could deacidifying by using yeast 71B-1122. But even that will
only reduce like 20-40% of your malic, and when you have musts at 10
g/l that's just not enough. Anyone have any data on the TA reduction
caused by this in malic-dominant wines BTW?

(2) you could conduct a pre-fermentation biological deacidification of
malic acid by Lactobacillus plantarum. But I've only ever seen it sell
in LARGE packs which I am not prepared to buy.

Lots of ideas and lots of problems. Any solutions?

Thanks for your input,
Ben

Ben Rotter wrote "Does dividing and deacidifying give a significantly
different pH to
deacidifying it all in one go?"

Ben-I have a small ion exchange set up and remove all of the acid from a
portion of wine when the %TA is too high (I work with high acid grapes).
When the two portions are mixed back together the pH is little changed from
the original. I believe this is because the same proportions of acids are
still present in the remixed wine, just less of them.

"Are you suggesting I acidify to correct the pH and then deacidify for TA?
Seems counterproductive to me."

You said to consider a wine with pH 3.5. My thought was to adjust the pH
to a desired level. Then proceed as above removing all of the acid from a
fraction of the wine. When remixed the resulting wine pH should be close to
that before treatment.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas

Ben,
This is a tough one, just to add to a few comments;

I would start with Lalvins 71B yeast, it eats malic. That may be all
you need if it is malic dominant. If the TA comes down, but pH rises
too much:

Plastering with gypsum is said to reduce pH without raising TA on
malic musts, but can impart a bitter taste and takes awhile to come
out of suspension. (Calcium Sulphate).

Margalit has a graph in 'Concepts of Wine Chemistry' that show an
initial pH of 3.64; 1g/l took it to 3.59, 2 g/l took it to 3.45 and 3
g/l took it to 3.38.
It's an old practic and seems to be forgottten, maybe for good reason.

I wish I had better advice, but raspberry is tough to make around
here. I made one that is closer to cough syrup than wine...

Regards,
Joe


(Ben Rotter) wrote in message . com...
Hi all,

I was wondering what the consensus would be here with regard to the
correction of high TA, high pH, *malic dominant* musts (I'm talking at
least 80% of the total acidity is malic).

Say you had a must with pH 3.5, TA 10 g/l (as tartaric), what would
you do?

I await with interest,
Ben

Ben,
This is a tough one, just to add to a few comments;

I would start with Lalvins 71B yeast, it eats malic.

Plastering with gypsum is said to reduce pH without raising TA on
malic musts, but can impart a bitter tastes and takes awhile to come
out of suspension. (Calcium Sulphate).

Margalit has a graph in 'Concepts of Wine Chemistry' that show an
initial pH of 3.64; 1g/l took it to 3.59, 2 g/l took it to 3.45 and 3
g/l took it to 3.38.
It's an old practic and seems to be forgottten, maybe for good reason.

I wish I had better advice, but raspberry is tough to make around
here. I made one that is closer to cough syrup than wine...

Regards,
Joe
"William Frazier" wrote in message ...
Ben Rotter wrote "Does dividing and deacidifying give a significantly
different pH to
deacidifying it all in one go?"

Ben-I have a small ion exchange set up and remove all of the acid from a
portion of wine when the %TA is too high (I work with high acid grapes).
When the two portions are mixed back together the pH is little changed from
the original. I believe this is because the same proportions of acids are
still present in the remixed wine, just less of them.

"Are you suggesting I acidify to correct the pH and then deacidify for TA?
Seems counterproductive to me."

You said to consider a wine with pH 3.5. My thought was to adjust the pH
to a desired level. Then proceed as above removing all of the acid from a
fraction of the wine. When remixed the resulting wine pH should be close to
that before treatment.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas

Ben,
This is a tough one, just to add to a few comments;

I would start with Lalvins 71B yeast, it eats malic. That may be all
you need if it is malic dominant. If the TA comes down, but pH rises
too much:

Plastering with gypsum is said to reduce pH without raising TA on
malic musts, but can impart a bitter taste and takes awhile to come
out of suspension. (Calcium Sulphate).

Margalit has a graph in 'Concepts of Wine Chemistry' that show an
initial pH of 3.64; 1g/l took it to 3.59, 2 g/l took it to 3.45 and 3
g/l took it to 3.38.
It's an old practic and seems to be forgottten, maybe for good reason.

I wish I had better advice, but raspberry is tough to make around
here. I made one that is closer to cough syrup than wine...

Regards,
Joe


(Ben Rotter) wrote in message . com...
Hi all,

I was wondering what the consensus would be here with regard to the
correction of high TA, high pH, *malic dominant* musts (I'm talking at
least 80% of the total acidity is malic).

Say you had a must with pH 3.5, TA 10 g/l (as tartaric), what would
you do?

I await with interest,
Ben

"Joe Sallustio" wrote in message
om...
Ben,
This is a tough one, just to add to a few comments;

I would start with Lalvins 71B yeast, it eats malic. That may be all
you need if it is malic dominant. If the TA comes down, but pH rises
too much:

I tried this (using Lalvin 71B) on apple wine a couple years ago. In my
opinion, it was a big mistake. It ate too much acid and I could never get
the acid balance back again.



Plastering with gypsum is said to reduce pH without raising TA on
malic musts, but can impart a bitter taste and takes awhile to come
out of suspension. (Calcium Sulphate).

Margalit has a graph in 'Concepts of Wine Chemistry' that show an
initial pH of 3.64; 1g/l took it to 3.59, 2 g/l took it to 3.45 and 3
g/l took it to 3.38.
It's an old practic and seems to be forgottten, maybe for good reason.

I wish I had better advice, but raspberry is tough to make around
here. I made one that is closer to cough syrup than wine...

Regards,
Joe


(Ben Rotter) wrote in message
. com...
Hi all,

I was wondering what the consensus would be here with regard to the
correction of high TA, high pH, *malic dominant* musts (I'm talking at
least 80% of the total acidity is malic).

Say you had a must with pH 3.5, TA 10 g/l (as tartaric), what would
you do?

I await with interest,
Ben

Bill and Giovanni,

Bill Frazier wrote:
You said to consider a wine with pH 3.5. My thought was to adjust the pH
to a desired level. Then proceed as above removing all of the acid from a
fraction of the wine. When remixed the resulting wine pH should be close to
that before treatment.

Thanks for that. I had just assumed you'd end up with the same pH you
had in the very beginning. Sounds like it could work though - I'll
give it a go.

Giovanni wrote:
you have been given the correct suggestions. Whether you are prepared to
implement them or not, whether they are convenient or not, it's entirely your decision.

I am fully aware of all the methods you listed (that is what all the
preceding posts in this thread were about). I noted the problems (not
just inconveniences) I saw in obtaining realistic/practical results
with those methods. I was looking for people to bring some further
thought to these rather than to reiterate the solutions I had already
stated I had these problems with.

Can you shed any light on combining deacidifying strategies
(successful experiences)?

Do you know from where I can order *small quantities* of
pre-fermentation biological deacidification aides?

If you must use such an unripe/unsuitable fruit to make wine, then you
are obviously prepared for the result: You MAY be able to make great
wine from great fruit, but you WILL NOT make great wine from poor fruit.

I am not blessed with perfectly naturally balanced fruit (e.g. high
quality grapes) and must make do with what I have. I am fully aware of
the disadvantages this has but I still want to make wine. Making the
best wine possible from unbalanced fruit is one of the greatest
challenges and skills of a winemaker.

Ben