Several people have stated that it is best to make TA and pH
adjustments pre-fermentation because later adjustments will be more
"noticeable". It seems to me that if you make an adjustment you want
it to be noticeable, since you are trying to change something. I don't
understand what difference it makes when you make these acid changes
as long as there is plenty of time for the wine to age, blend, etc.
before tasting (for example, even if done just before bottling with a
red wine, there will be several months/years of aging before drinking)

Miker wrote:

Several people have stated that it is best to make TA and pH
adjustments pre-fermentation because later adjustments will be more
"noticeable".

The only way I'd want my adjustments to be noticeable is in that the
resulting wine is balanced and intergrated. Thus for that reason I think
if one starts out with a must that is balanced, the resulting wine will
be better than a wine that is adjusted post-fermentation, simply because
the various components will blend together better during fermentation
rather than afterwards during the slower ageing process.

However, an adjusted wine, regardless of when it's done (as long as it's
adjusted to proper numbers) will be better than a wine that hasn't been
adjusted.

--
charles

"Once ... in the wilds of Afghanistan, I lost my corkscrew, and we were
forced to live on nothing but food and water for days."
- W.C. Fields

"Miker" wrote in message
om...
Several people have stated that it is best to make TA and pH
adjustments pre-fermentation because later adjustments will be more
"noticeable". It seems to me that if you make an adjustment you want
it to be noticeable, since you are trying to change something. I don't
understand what difference it makes when you make these acid changes
as long as there is plenty of time for the wine to age, blend, etc.

There's a difference between "noticeable" and sticking out like a sore
thumb!

In my experience, wines that have been post fermentation adjusted - even
very slightly - taste like they've been doctored. True, the effect becomes
less perceptible over time, but it takes a very _long_ time.

OTOH, if the must/juice had been adjusted prior to fermentation no such
evidence is obvious - even to a trained palate.

Tom S

"Miker" wrote:

Several people have stated that it is best to make TA and pH
adjustments pre-fermentation because later adjustments will be more
"noticeable". It seems to me that if you make an adjustment you want
it to be noticeable, since you are trying to change something. I don't
understand what difference it makes when you make these acid changes
as long as there is plenty of time for the wine to age, blend, etc.

Mike, you can draw a good analogy from making soup. If you were to just add
the meat and vegetables to hot water, the soup would taste like water with
vegetables floating in it. If you were to wait overnight, the soup would
taste neither like water, nor like soup. If you were to wait several months,
or perhaps years, and could somehow prevent the meat and vegetables from
spoiling, the soup might taste like soup. Or it might not. On the other hand
if you boil the soup for an hour or two, it tastes like a rich, full-bodied
soup.

Similarly, during fermentation there is a lot of chemical and physical
activity which, like cooking, extracts and blends flavours together. So
flavour ingredients added before or whilst the must is still fermenting
become one with the must. Flavour ingredients added at a later stage may or
may not eventually integrate --- and until they do it doesn't taste quite
right.

If this wasn't true, we could "make wine" by blending flavour ingredients
with vodka (which, I can assure you from childhood experience, does NOT
taste like wine, especially after spending the night in an aluminum
canteen).

I like the soup analogy, Negodki. Its the same thing I thought of when
posting the question. The vodka comparison is a little more of a
stretch though, since adding "flavor components" to an alcoholic drink
derived from grain is in no way comparable to adding acid to wine
post-fermentation imho.

Can't believe there are no dissenting opinions here regarding
post-fermention additions. I know there are people out there
(including commercial winemakers) who let things ferment awhile to see
how everything "settles out" so to speak before they make many or any
adjustments. They might argue that the same "soup melding" processes
that all of you allude to need to take place before you can tell if
adjustments need to be made. Ph and other changes that will occur
during fermentation can be roughly predicted but you never know
exactly what the changes will be.

Don't misunderstand, I'm not necessarily in favor of this method, in
fact I think the pre-fermentation additions make the most sense. I'm
just not convinced yet that it makes that much difference.

Miker wrote:

Don't misunderstand, I'm not necessarily in favor of this method, in
fact I think the pre-fermentation additions make the most sense. I'm
just not convinced yet that it makes that much difference.

Perhaps you should split a batch and adjust one pre-ferm and the other
post-ferm and treat both the exact same and see which turns out better.


--
charles

"Once ... in the wilds of Afghanistan, I lost my corkscrew, and we were
forced to live on nothing but food and water for days."
- W.C. Fields

Ok, you got me. I make them if necessary, but only if I did not get
it right pre-ferment. Wines have a mind of their own or it would be a
science. I think it's an art as much as a science, but I do not have
an arsenal of test equipment and the money to use it with either...

I prefer to have too much acid and have to pull some out than add;
but if it's too low you have to do something. Otherwise you made a
lifeless wine.

Blending seems best in that regard, but I have a lot to blend with, I
have several hundred bottles of finished wine. After that, citric
seems to be the acid of choice in most books. I use that or tartaric
if the pH is too high and is making me nervous.

I would not disagree that pre fermentation is the better way to go
though.
Regards,
Joe

Can't believe there are no dissenting opinions here regarding
post-fermention additions. I know there are people out there
(including commercial winemakers) who let things ferment awhile to see
how everything "settles out" so to speak before they make many or any
adjustments. They might argue that the same "soup melding" processes
that all of you allude to need to take place before you can tell if
adjustments need to be made. Ph and other changes that will occur
during fermentation can be roughly predicted but you never know
exactly what the changes will be.

Don't misunderstand, I'm not necessarily in favor of this method, in
fact I think the pre-fermentation additions make the most sense. I'm
just not convinced yet that it makes that much difference.

Charles H wrote in message

"Perhaps you should split a batch and adjust one pre-ferm and the other
post-ferm and treat both the exact same and see which turns out better."

Good idea. The only grapes I have coming yet this year will be
late-harvest Merlot for a port, so probably not the best to experiment
with due to the fortification and ageing time involved, but I'll try
to split a batch that I think needs some adjustment next season.

Miker

I am at pH of 3.6. Too high by a bit, I guess. This is the second day of
ferment, going strong. Can I add tartaric acid now? And how much for 35
gallons of merlot?


"Joe Sallustio" wrote in message
om...
Ok, you got me. I make them if necessary, but only if I did not get
it right pre-ferment. Wines have a mind of their own or it would be a

"Bruce" wrote:

I am at pH of 3.6. Too high by a bit, I guess. This is the second day of
ferment, going strong. Can I add tartaric acid now? And how much for 35
gallons of merlot?

Acid adjustments are best made before fermentation begins. You can still
make them now. Take a small sample of the wine, degas it, add tartaric acid
(keeping track of how much you added by weight) until the ph is where you
want it (about 3.4 is the normal target). Then do a bit of algebra to find
the amount for 35 gallons.

If your sample is 8 ounces (0.0625 gallons) and you added 10 grams of
tartaric, you would add: 10 grams / 0.0625 gallons x 35 gallons = 5600
grams.

You should use a large enough sample that you can measure the weight of the
tartaric acid added significantly. If your scale is only accurate to +/- 1
gram, you would need to add about 10 grams before you could extraploate an
accurate figure.