I read some posts and see this is rather common. I have a barrel of
syrah coming in pH of 3.96 and TA of 0.71. It's just fermented dry
and it was sulphered to 30ppm at crush.

Thoughts on level of acidification, if any?

Thanks, ...Michael

If you can get it good and cold, you may want to add tartaric acid;
your wine may be high in potassium too, which pushs pH up. When the
excess tartaric acid comes out it is in the form of potassium
bitartrate, so you lower pH and titratable acid at the same time. It'
sounds crazy but works. I would add until the pH got to 3.6. By good
and cold I mean higher that 5 F but lower that 30F if possible. 20F is
the target as I recall. The French used to just open the winery doors
so temp control would be nice, but they made good wine back then
too...

Others may have thoughts too.
Regards,
Joe

(Michael Brill) wrote in message . com...
I read some posts and see this is rather common. I have a barrel of
syrah coming in pH of 3.96 and TA of 0.71. It's just fermented dry
and it was sulphered to 30ppm at crush.

Thoughts on level of acidification, if any?

Thanks, ...Michael

I read some posts and see this is rather common. I have a barrel of
syrah coming in pH of 3.96 and TA of 0.71. It's just fermented dry
and it was sulphered to 30ppm at crush.

Thoughts on level of acidification, if any?

Thanks, ...Michael

Tis a personal judgement call at this point, Michael.

At crush, it would be hands down: add enought tartaric to achieve a 3.4 pH.
Then the wine will take care of itself through both fermentations and cold
stabilization (or aging).

Some things that aren't clear from your post:

Are the parameters you list present ones, or from crush?

Has MLF occured or do you plan on doing one?

Adding enough acid now to bring the pH within reason may produce an
undesirable effect on the taste of the wine: ie, too tart.

If the fermentation was clean, and your cellar is clean, then bottling a
high pH wine is feasible, though still risky. Chances are that it won't
last very long, but there are other factors that come into play (tannins
comes to mind). Part of the problem is that SO2 is virtually uneffective at
that pH level. Depending on the volume, I might consider just throwing a
party! In other words, drink up soon (within the next 8 months to a year).


clyde

(Joe Sallustio) wrote in message . com...
If you can get it good and cold, you may want to add tartaric acid;

Trying to figure out how to drop the temperature that much. Also,
does it matter when (e.g., right before bottling or will anytime
work)? For instance, ambient temperature will be about mid-50's in
the winter. I could transfer the barrel contents to a stainless tank
and blast it with dry ice and get the temperature down. But I don't
know about getting it to 20F. Won't it, uh, freeze?

BTW, how much TA would fall out? If I acidified to 3.6 right , that
would put my TA at about 1.0 or so. Will 0.3 or more TA fall out?

Michael,
Can you put it outside, but covered so as not to expose it to the sun?
That would get it pretty cold here in Pgh, PA. Several days, not
hours, is what I would plan for.

I would add .1 and see where the pH went, it may turn right around, it
will drop faster as the potassium comes out of the wine, so you do not
have to add too much.

it freezes at 5 F. The colder it gets, the faster it drops out, you
can add cream of Tartar to speed this up too.

I can look it up for you later when I get home.
Regards,
Joe

(Michael Brill) wrote in message . com...
(Joe Sallustio) wrote in message . com...
If you can get it good and cold, you may want to add tartaric acid;

Trying to figure out how to drop the temperature that much. Also,
does it matter when (e.g., right before bottling or will anytime
work)? For instance, ambient temperature will be about mid-50's in
the winter. I could transfer the barrel contents to a stainless tank
and blast it with dry ice and get the temperature down. But I don't
know about getting it to 20F. Won't it, uh, freeze?

BTW, how much TA would fall out? If I acidified to 3.6 right , that
would put my TA at about 1.0 or so. Will 0.3 or more TA fall out?

Since this is an entire barrel, maybe your best bet would be to
pullout several bottles worth adding tartaric to each in various
amounts. (And top up.) The reason to add tartaric only is two fold,it
reduces pH more that malic or citric, and the excess is coming out if
chilled. When it does, it pulls potassium out too, further reducing
pH.

Your wine probably has very little tartaric acid, or is high in
potassium as a guess. I would think the later makes more sense.
Potassium Bitartrate forms when you chill wine, this reduces potassium
and tartaric acid. The colder, the less it can hold.

Personally, I might do this. I would pull a sample, add tartaric only
to a TA of 8g/l and remeasure pH. That would go in the refrigerator
for a few weeks. Then I would remeasure. Adding potassium bitartrate
allows you to pull this out at higher temps, you can add a few grams
to another sample to see if that works better. You want to get under
5C if possible, any fridge will do 6 C. Wine at 5 degrees C can hold
1/3 of the potassium bitartrate it can hold at 30 C, so you can still
pull a bunch out even at fridge temps. You will see a crust of
crystals form, you rack off of that while still cold.

Others may have better advice. This seems least risky, and you can
predict how much to add and what will probably happen this way. You
can do this anytime.

Regards,
Joe

If you can get it good and cold, you may want to add tartaric acid;

Trying to figure out how to drop the temperature that much. Also,
does it matter when (e.g., right before bottling or will anytime
work)? For instance, ambient temperature will be about mid-50's in
the winter. I could transfer the barrel contents to a stainless tank
and blast it with dry ice and get the temperature down. But I don't
know about getting it to 20F. Won't it, uh, freeze?

BTW, how much TA would fall out? If I acidified to 3.6 right , that
would put my TA at about 1.0 or so. Will 0.3 or more TA fall out?

(Joe Sallustio) wrote in message . com...

Your wine probably has very little tartaric acid, or is high in
potassium as a guess. I would think the later makes more sense.
Potassium Bitartrate forms when you chill wine, this reduces potassium
and tartaric acid. The colder, the less it can hold.

Why would my TA register 0.71 if there was little tartaric acid?
Are you saying that it's all citric/malic? Also, how do I find out
the potassium levels? I don't know of any test for that.

I will definitely experiment with some small batches to see what the
impact of acid additions makes.

So the reality is that we have four barrels of syrah (I'm only doing
one, but my partners have three more), so this is a fairly large
amount of work. I do have an extra fridge and a 100 liter stainless
thank that will probably fit in... so it may not be too bad.
Approximately how long does it need to chill before the crust forms?

Thanks for the advice!

"Clyde Gill" wrote in message ...

Tis a personal judgement call at this point, Michael.

At crush, it would be hands down: add enought tartaric to achieve a 3.4 pH.
Then the wine will take care of itself through both fermentations and cold
stabilization (or aging).

Some things that aren't clear from your post:

Are the parameters you list present ones, or from crush?

Has MLF occured or do you plan on doing one?

Adding enough acid now to bring the pH within reason may produce an
undesirable effect on the taste of the wine: ie, too tart.

If the fermentation was clean, and your cellar is clean, then bottling a
high pH wine is feasible, though still risky. Chances are that it won't
last very long, but there are other factors that come into play (tannins
comes to mind). Part of the problem is that SO2 is virtually uneffective at
that pH level. Depending on the volume, I might consider just throwing a
party! In other words, drink up soon (within the next 8 months to a year).

The parameters I gave are current from the lab. Primary is just about
complete ( 1 brix). I do plan on MLF.

The fermentation was clean, the cellar is clean. As I mentioned in a
previous post, we actually have 4 barrels of this stuff, so it'd have
to be a really, really big party.

I figure I've got a bit of time before I panic and am just trying to
understand my options.

I doubt that is the case, I think it's potassium. As the grape berry
matures, malic decreases and tartaric increases. If your grapes were
ripe, I doubt that it is low tartaric.

Testing for high potassium is probably not worth the cost, but high is
considered above 1 g/l. You would do the same thing, regardless. See
if your local library can get its hands on 'Wine Analysis and
Production' by Zoecklein, et al. You may want to read chapter 4
'Hydrogen Ion (pH) and Fixed Acids' and Ch 15,'Tartrates and
Instabilities'.

In short, it tells you to get the sample below 3.65 pH, chill to 32 F,
seed with 4 g/l of potassium bitartate and stir like crazy. This
should pull out excess tartaric, (which you added) and potassium,
(which is probably your problem). I way oversimplified this, that's
why I suggested the book. If it does not work out, you only wasted
one bottle... Most of the reaction occurs in 90 minutes according to
the book, but I would give it two weeks, you have time and are not
cold enough in a regular fridge.

Hope that helps,
Joe



(Michael Brill) wrote in message . com...
(Joe Sallustio) wrote in message . com...

Your wine probably has very little tartaric acid, or is high in
potassium as a guess. I would think the later makes more sense.
Potassium Bitartrate forms when you chill wine, this reduces potassium
and tartaric acid. The colder, the less it can hold.

Why would my TA register 0.71 if there was little tartaric acid?
Are you saying that it's all citric/malic? Also, how do I find out
the potassium levels? I don't know of any test for that.

I will definitely experiment with some small batches to see what the
impact of acid additions makes.

So the reality is that we have four barrels of syrah (I'm only doing
one, but my partners have three more), so this is a fairly large
amount of work. I do have an extra fridge and a 100 liter stainless
thank that will probably fit in... so it may not be too bad.
Approximately how long does it need to chill before the crust forms?

Thanks for the advice!

I'll give it a go and report back. Thanks Joe!

BTW, where can I find the appropriate ranges for Potassium?

I Googled this http://www.vinovation.com/ArticleDiagnosis.htm to help
derive an estimate of potassium, but don't know what good/bad levels
are.

....Michael

"Michael Brill" wrote in message
om...
BTW, where can I find the appropriate ranges for Potassium?

I Googled this http://www.vinovation.com/ArticleDiagnosis.htm to help
derive an estimate of potassium, but don't know what good/bad levels
are.

...Michael

Michael, the reference Joe gave above says potassium can rang from 0.6 to
2.5 grams per liter.
lum

OK, here's the current tentative plan. I'm going to acidify either to
pH of 3.6 or TA of 0.9... whichever comes first. The question is how
to precipitate the tartrates.

My understanding is that some will come out during the winter (average
55F degrees in cellar). Perhaps during the colder part of the winter
(32-40F), I'll rack the barrel into carbuoys and just leave them
outside for two weeks. Worst case, come next Summer, I'll figure out
some way to refrigerate it.

Thoughts?

Assuming I acidify, the syrah hasn't quite fermented - it's now at
about 1.5 brix. Any suggestion whether I should acidify before
fermentation is complete or will this throw off the fermentation?

I would do it now, but measure the pH again first... Don't forget to
degas the sample.
Regards,
Joe


(Michael Brill) wrote in message . com...
Assuming I acidify, the syrah hasn't quite fermented - it's now at
about 1.5 brix. Any suggestion whether I should acidify before
fermentation is complete or will this throw off the fermentation?