Hi there.

I just bought 250 pounds of Peter Brehm cabernet grapes from northern
California. They were harvested September 21 with a Brix of 26.5, pH
of 3.41 and TA of 7.95 grams/litre.

The brix seems a little high as does the acid. Any suggestions on how
you would adjust this must? Just ferment out and ML and cold
stabalize to reduce acid? Should I add acidulated water to bring the
brix down? Or just plain water?

Any advice appreciated.

Dan Emerson

"Dan Emerson" wrote in message
om...
Hi there.

I just bought 250 pounds of Peter Brehm cabernet grapes from northern
California. They were harvested September 21 with a Brix of 26.5, pH
of 3.41 and TA of 7.95 grams/litre.

The brix seems a little high as does the acid. Any suggestions on how
you would adjust this must? Just ferment out and ML and cold
stabalize to reduce acid? Should I add acidulated water to bring the
brix down? Or just plain water?

Any advice appreciated.

Dan Emerson

Dan,
If you like "big," red wines, I would wouldn't add anything but SO2 and
yeast (use a high alcohol yeast like Prise de Mousse).
lum

"Dan Emerson" wrote:

I just bought 250 pounds of Peter Brehm cabernet grapes from northern
California. They were harvested September 21 with a Brix of 26.5, pH
of 3.41 and TA of 7.95 grams/litre.

The brix seems a little high as does the acid. Any suggestions on how
you would adjust this must? Just ferment out and ML and cold
stabalize to reduce acid? Should I add acidulated water to bring the
brix down? Or just plain water?

First, retest the sugar, pH and acid, before any adjustments. Mistakes can
be made.

The Brix is a bit high (about 15.5% p.a.). If you use an alcohol-tolerant
yeast, you can reduce the alcohol level by stirring the must somewhat
vigorously during fermentation. Depends how low you want to get it.

The pH is ideal (IMO) for a cabernet, and I would be hesitant to adjust it
at all. If you reduce it very much, it will be more difficult to initiate
malolactic fermentation.

The acid is about .15 higher than I would like to have for a cabernet, but
it should come down during fermentation, cold stabilization, and malolactic
fermentation. How much is anyone's guess, but it's not unreasonable to
expect a .15 reduction.

If you do decide to reduce the Brix via dilution, I think plain (or
distilled) water would be better than acidulated, since that will reduce the
TA a bit. Acidulated would increase it.

"Dan Emerson" wrote in message
om...
Hi there.

I just bought 250 pounds of Peter Brehm cabernet grapes from northern
California. They were harvested September 21 with a Brix of 26.5, pH
of 3.41 and TA of 7.95 grams/litre.

The brix seems a little high as does the acid. Any suggestions on how
you would adjust this must? Just ferment out and ML and cold
stabalize to reduce acid? Should I add acidulated water to bring the
brix down? Or just plain water?

Any advice appreciated.

Although the Brix is a little high, the other numbers are *perfect*! Should
make a big Cabernet. Don't mess with it; just ferment it as is.

Tom S

(Dan Emerson) wrote in message . com...
Hi there.

I just bought 250 pounds of Peter Brehm cabernet grapes from northern
California. They were harvested September 21 with a Brix of 26.5, pH
of 3.41 and TA of 7.95 grams/litre.

The brix seems a little high as does the acid. Any suggestions on how
you would adjust this must? Just ferment out and ML and cold
stabalize to reduce acid? Should I add acidulated water to bring the
brix down? Or just plain water?

Any advice appreciated.

Dan Emerson

Thanks for all the advice. I'll just let it go with minimum
intervention other than cultured yeast.

I have a question about pressing.

I generally press when the brix is zero, or the gravity is 1.0 or
less. There is usually still a cap. Should I wait until the cap
falls? I've heard about falling cap but have never seen this.
Impatient or a worry wart I guess.

If I wait until the cap falls, do I have to use an inert gas? What
about pressing after the cap falls. Pressing seems so violent.

When I press, I generally scoop the whole mess, juice and pulp into
the press and press away. Should I try to try to wait until the cap
falls and try to draw off the juice from the pulp before pressing?

I want my wines, cabernet and pinot, to have that big mouth feel
(which at least my Pinot doesn't have) and I think my past pressing
practices may play a part. Also, I don't use barrels, and that may be
part of it too.

In other words: What are the keys to making a very fine Cabernet. I
think I have good grapes and I don't have a barrel.

Thanks for all your help.

Dan Emerson

"Dan Emerson" wrote:

I generally press when the brix is zero, or the gravity is 1.0 or
less. There is usually still a cap. Should I wait until the cap
falls? I've heard about falling cap but have never seen this.
Impatient or a worry wart I guess.

A "standard practice" is to press when the Brix falls to 0, or soon
thereafter. Others press around 1.010. Others wait until the cap "falls" (or
more accurately, sinks), and there are no more floating solids. Others wait
3-4 weeks (which takes special methods to protect the wine from oxidation).
The longer you wait, the more extraction of colour, flavour, and tannin,
will occur, and the heavier a wine will result. And the longer you wait to
press, the longer you will have to wait to drink the wine, since extended
maceration usually means much more aging is required.

If I wait until the cap falls, do I have to use an inert gas? What
about pressing after the cap falls. Pressing seems so violent.

As long as the cap is floating, the fermentation is producing enough CO2 to
protect the wine in the primary, and there is no need to use an inert gas.
Once the cap sinks, the ferment is probably complete, or very close to being
complete, and you should press imediately (or take steps to protect the wine
from air). I don't understand the reference to violence. First, one should
always press gently, and secondly, you have to press sometime, and it's no
more violent before the cap drops than afterwards.

When I press, I generally scoop the whole mess, juice and pulp into
the press and press away. Should I try to try to wait until the cap
falls and try to draw off the juice from the pulp before pressing?

You are using the correct procedure. There is no need to "try to draw off
the juice from the pulp before pressing", nor would it be possible without
straining. Even though the pulp is no longer floating, it is still suspended
throughout the must. If you waited for it to sink to the bottom, and clear,
then you would be asking for problems.

However, you should use a press bag or fiberglass screening in the press,
and pour the juice through it, letting the solids accumulate in the press
basket. Only when there is no more free-run juice, should you begin
pressing, and then as gently as possible. It takes longer, but hard-pressing
will force undesireable tannins and bitter flavours from the skins. Some
people separate the free-run juice from the pressed juice (and then combine
it later), but I don't see the point in this.

I want my wines, cabernet and pinot, to have that big mouth feel
(which at least my Pinot doesn't have) and I think my past pressing
practices may play a part. Also, I don't use barrels, and that may be
part of it too.

There are many factors in achieving "mouth feel". Barrel aging imparts
tannin (which can be simulated with oak chips) and a mellowness which cannot
be duplicated. But barrels are expensive and more trouble than glass or
stainless steel carboys, so one must decide how important that mellowness is
to them.

Here are some recent threads on the subject:
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...fts.winemaking

"Negodki" wrote in message
...
"Dan Emerson" wrote:

I generally press when the brix is zero, or the gravity is 1.0 or
less. There is usually still a cap. Should I wait until the cap
falls? I've heard about falling cap but have never seen this.
Impatient or a worry wart I guess.

A "standard practice" is to press when the Brix falls to 0, or soon
thereafter. Others press around 1.010. Others wait until the cap "falls"
(or
more accurately, sinks), and there are no more floating solids. Others
wait
3-4 weeks (which takes special methods to protect the wine from
oxidation).

The "special methods" aren't all that complicated. It's just a matter of
keeping air away from the wine and stirring the must to keep it from going
reductive (H2S). I spritz the top of the must and then smooth a trash bag
down against the surface of the must. Laying a few pieces of wood down on
the plastic to keep it in contact with the wine helps. That keeps air away
pretty well.

The longer you wait, the more extraction of colour, flavour, and tannin,
will occur, and the heavier a wine will result. And the longer you wait to
press, the longer you will have to wait to drink the wine, since extended
maceration usually means much more aging is required.

That's not necessarily true. Pressing at zero Brix will tend to yield a
wine with harsher tannins than pressing a couple of weeks beyond dryness.
The extended maceration encourages polymerization of harsh tannins into big,
soft tannins. Also, the color tends to be reabsorbed by the pulp during
extended maceration.

If I wait until the cap falls, do I have to use an inert gas? What
about pressing after the cap falls. Pressing seems so violent.

Pressing isn't a problem. The aeration is good for a young wine -
especially a red. Prior to and after pressing it is necessary to take
protective measures with the wine (topping up, inert gas, sulfiting), but
not while you're actually pressing it.

As long as the cap is floating, the fermentation is producing enough CO2
to
protect the wine in the primary, and there is no need to use an inert gas.

Not true! The low rate of CO2 production may lure you into a false sense of
security, but if the CO2 gassing is not _considerable_, the surface of the
must is a good breeding ground for all the spoilage organisms. They only
need a _little_ bit of air to survive and then thrive.

Once the cap sinks, the ferment is probably complete, or very close to
being
complete, and you should press imediately (or take steps to protect the
wine
from air). I don't understand the reference to violence. First, one should
always press gently, and secondly, you have to press sometime, and it's no
more violent before the cap drops than afterwards.

I tend to agree, but I always press a good deal harder than _gently_.
There's a lot of good stuff in the heavy press fraction. It might be
advisable to keep the heavy press fraction separate for awhile - possibly
for a different fining regimen than the free run and light press wine - but
I usually end up incorporating it into the main lot.

When I press, I generally scoop the whole mess, juice and pulp into
the press and press away. Should I try to try to wait until the cap
falls and try to draw off the juice from the pulp before pressing?

You are using the correct procedure. There is no need to "try to draw off
the juice from the pulp before pressing", nor would it be possible without
straining. Even though the pulp is no longer floating, it is still
suspended
throughout the must. If you waited for it to sink to the bottom, and
clear,
then you would be asking for problems.

However, you should use a press bag or fiberglass screening in the press,
and pour the juice through it, letting the solids accumulate in the press
basket. Only when there is no more free-run juice, should you begin
pressing, and then as gently as possible. It takes longer, but
hard-pressing
will force undesireable tannins and bitter flavours from the skins. Some
people separate the free-run juice from the pressed juice (and then
combine
it later), but I don't see the point in this.

See my comments above re differential fining.

I want my wines, cabernet and pinot, to have that big mouth feel
(which at least my Pinot doesn't have) and I think my past pressing
practices may play a part. Also, I don't use barrels, and that may be
part of it too.

There are many factors in achieving "mouth feel". Barrel aging imparts
tannin (which can be simulated with oak chips) and a mellowness which
cannot
be duplicated. But barrels are expensive and more trouble than glass or
stainless steel carboys, so one must decide how important that mellowness
is
to them.

The best way to get oak character into glass or stainless fermented wines is
to ferment with wood chips in the primary, and carry them along as long as
necessary to achieve the desired effect. Sure, barrels are better but you
can do _very_ well with just chips and an occasional racking.

Tom S

"Tom S" wrote:

The "special methods" aren't all that complicated. It's just a matter of
keeping air away from the wine and stirring the must to keep it from going
reductive (H2S). I spritz the top of the must and then smooth a trash bag
down against the surface of the must. Laying a few pieces of wood down on
the plastic to keep it in contact with the wine helps. That keeps air
away
pretty well.

Rather than "spritzing", why not just push the cap down below "water level"?
But how do you stir the must during an extended maceration without exposing
it to air? Or is the small amount of exposure during stirring
insignificant?

That's not necessarily true. Pressing at zero Brix will tend to yield a
wine with harsher tannins than pressing a couple of weeks beyond dryness.
The extended maceration encourages polymerization of harsh tannins into
big,
soft tannins. Also, the color tends to be reabsorbed by the pulp during
extended maceration.

I didn't know about the tannins. I had heard about the colour lightening
somewhat during extended maceration, but hadn't heard the reason. Thank you.

How long do you extend the maceration? Do you just let it continue until it
"tastes right"?

Not true! The low rate of CO2 production may lure you into a false sense
of
security, but if the CO2 gassing is not _considerable_, the surface of the
must is a good breeding ground for all the spoilage organisms. They only
need a _little_ bit of air to survive and then thrive.

Isn't that taken care of by pushing the cap down, and stirring the must? If
not, at what stage does the must require "special methods" of protection
from air?

I tend to agree, but I always press a good deal harder than _gently_.
There's a lot of good stuff in the heavy press fraction. It might be
advisable to keep the heavy press fraction separate for awhile - possibly
for a different fining regimen than the free run and light press wine -
but
I usually end up incorporating it into the main lot.

Yeah, I also try to get that last "little" bit out, especially since it
isn't so little. It usually comes out well-filtered and almost clear (since
it has had to pass through all the compacted pulp). But I figured this
hard-pressing was "not recommended".

"Negodki" wrote in message
...
"Tom S" wrote:

The "special methods" aren't all that complicated. It's just a matter
of
keeping air away from the wine and stirring the must to keep it from
going
reductive (H2S). I spritz the top of the must and then smooth a trash
bag
down against the surface of the must. Laying a few pieces of wood down
on
the plastic to keep it in contact with the wine helps. That keeps air
away
pretty well.

Rather than "spritzing", why not just push the cap down below "water
level"?

I do, but even at dryness the cap tends to float up again - probably because
of ML activity/gassing.

But how do you stir the must during an extended maceration without
exposing
it to air? Or is the small amount of exposure during stirring
insignificant?

The short exposures are not significant. Besides, a little aeration is good
for the new wine. It helps release the small amounts of H2S that are
present in healthy fermentations.

That's not necessarily true. Pressing at zero Brix will tend to yield a
wine with harsher tannins than pressing a couple of weeks beyond
dryness.
The extended maceration encourages polymerization of harsh tannins into
big,
soft tannins. Also, the color tends to be reabsorbed by the pulp during
extended maceration.

I didn't know about the tannins. I had heard about the colour lightening
somewhat during extended maceration, but hadn't heard the reason. Thank
you.

How long do you extend the maceration? Do you just let it continue until
it
"tastes right"?

Pretty much, but schedule of when the next opportunity for pressing is also
a factor. IOW, if Saturday is three days past 0° Brix, I'll probably press
at ten days.

Not true! The low rate of CO2 production may lure you into a false
sense
of
security, but if the CO2 gassing is not _considerable_, the surface of
the
must is a good breeding ground for all the spoilage organisms. They
only
need a _little_ bit of air to survive and then thrive.

Isn't that taken care of by pushing the cap down, and stirring the must?
If
not, at what stage does the must require "special methods" of protection
from air?

Once the must is no longer gassing vigorously it's time to be more careful
about air exposure. That's when I start spritzing with SO2 after the last
punchdown before going to bed.

I tend to agree, but I always press a good deal harder than _gently_.
There's a lot of good stuff in the heavy press fraction. It might be
advisable to keep the heavy press fraction separate for awhile -
possibly
for a different fining regimen than the free run and light press wine -
but
I usually end up incorporating it into the main lot.

Yeah, I also try to get that last "little" bit out, especially since it
isn't so little. It usually comes out well-filtered and almost clear
(since
it has had to pass through all the compacted pulp). But I figured this
hard-pressing was "not recommended".

It's strictly a matter of style. I remember that Joe Heitz did not separate
the press fraction of his "Martha's Vineyard" Cabernet from the free run.
That's good enough for me!

Tom S

In article ,
"Tom S" wrote:


The best way to get oak character into glass or stainless fermented wines is
to ferment with wood chips in the primary, and carry them along as long as
necessary to achieve the desired effect. Sure, barrels are better but you
can do _very_ well with just chips and an occasional racking.

Tom S



As a home winemaker doing relatively small batches (5 gallons), I am
curious about this. I would like to impart oak in some of my wines, but
barrels I think are not a good option for these small batches. Thus, I
will experiement with chips. I have seen several people here suggest
that it is best to put the oak chips in the primary prior to
fermentation. But, isn't this actually not what is done with most wines?
Are not most commercial wines fermented in vats or steel tanks and then
placed into barrels for aging and oaking after primary fermentation?
Would not a similar (as much as possible) oaking take place if chips
were added after primary?

I would definitely appreciate any comments about the differences between
adding chips before or after fermentation - pros, cons?

Thanks.

--
Greg Cook
http://homepage.mac.com/gregcook/Wine

(remove spamblocker from my email address)

"Greg Cook" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Tom S" wrote:


The best way to get oak character into glass or stainless fermented
wines is
to ferment with wood chips in the primary, and carry them along as long
as
necessary to achieve the desired effect. Sure, barrels are better but
you
can do _very_ well with just chips and an occasional racking.

Tom S



As a home winemaker doing relatively small batches (5 gallons), I am
curious about this. I would like to impart oak in some of my wines, but
barrels I think are not a good option for these small batches. Thus, I
will experiement with chips. I have seen several people here suggest
that it is best to put the oak chips in the primary prior to
fermentation. But, isn't this actually not what is done with most wines?
Are not most commercial wines fermented in vats or steel tanks and then
placed into barrels for aging and oaking after primary fermentation?
Would not a similar (as much as possible) oaking take place if chips
were added after primary?

I would definitely appreciate any comments about the differences between
adding chips before or after fermentation - pros, cons?

Thanks.

--
Greg Cook
http://homepage.mac.com/gregcook/Wine

(remove spamblocker from my email address)

I know of at least one commercial winery that puts some oak chips in the
primary fermentatin bins and then pumps into somewhat old barrels after
pressing. I think it all depends on the age of the barrels and how much oak
extraction is wanted. I think the oak has a better chance of "integrating"
if some is put in the primary fermentation.

"Paul E. Lehmann" wrote in message
...
I know of at least one commercial winery that puts some oak chips in the
primary fermentatin bins and then pumps into somewhat old barrels after
pressing. I think it all depends on the age of the barrels and how much
oak
extraction is wanted. I think the oak has a better chance of
"integrating"
if some is put in the primary fermentation.

Exactly right! That's why barrel fermented Chardonnay (e.g.) tastes
different from tank fermented Chardonnay that is subsequently barrel aged.
The oak flavor is more tightly integrated into the structure of the wine -
partly at least because the yeast tends to fine the harsh wood tannins.

Tom S

Greg,
I used to just add the Oak after Primary so I could monitor the
"oakiness" of the wine. I since, on the advice of Tom S started adding a
handful of Oak to 5-6 gal (french in my case) to the primary, and lightly
rinsing it at racking and then add it back into the racked wine.
The best way I can describe the difference is that it was a lot
smoother tasting and seemed as you said more "intergrated" into the wine. My
concern initially was that how much do you want to "over oak" the wine
before enough is enough to get it right after it mellows out? For me that
was hard to judge because I was not used to Oaking my wine as a general
rule. In conclusion I have decided that the oak seems more naturally
intergrated into the wine when it is added from the start versus later on.
Yes you can judge the oak more readily when it is added after fermentation,
but the taste is definitely more course when the oak is added later on in my
trials.
The tip from Tom S in regard to Oaking in my opinion is dead on. HTH
John Dixon
"Tom S" wrote in message
om...

"Paul E. Lehmann" wrote in message
...
I know of at least one commercial winery that puts some oak chips in the
primary fermentatin bins and then pumps into somewhat old barrels after
pressing. I think it all depends on the age of the barrels and how much
oak
extraction is wanted. I think the oak has a better chance of
"integrating"
if some is put in the primary fermentation.

Exactly right! That's why barrel fermented Chardonnay (e.g.) tastes
different from tank fermented Chardonnay that is subsequently barrel aged.
The oak flavor is more tightly integrated into the structure of the wine -
partly at least because the yeast tends to fine the harsh wood tannins.

Tom S

In article ,
"J Dixon" wrote:

Greg,
I used to just add the Oak after Primary so I could monitor the
"oakiness" of the wine. I since, on the advice of Tom S started adding a
handful of Oak to 5-6 gal (french in my case) to the primary, and lightly
rinsing it at racking and then add it back into the racked wine.
The best way I can describe the difference is that it was a lot
smoother tasting and seemed as you said more "intergrated" into the wine. My
concern initially was that how much do you want to "over oak" the wine
before enough is enough to get it right after it mellows out? For me that
was hard to judge because I was not used to Oaking my wine as a general
rule. In conclusion I have decided that the oak seems more naturally
intergrated into the wine when it is added from the start versus later on.
Yes you can judge the oak more readily when it is added after fermentation,
but the taste is definitely more course when the oak is added later on in my
trials.
The tip from Tom S in regard to Oaking in my opinion is dead on. HTH
John Dixon
"Tom S" wrote in message
om...

"Paul E. Lehmann" wrote in message
...
I know of at least one commercial winery that puts some oak chips in the
primary fermentatin bins and then pumps into somewhat old barrels after
pressing. I think it all depends on the age of the barrels and how much
oak
extraction is wanted. I think the oak has a better chance of
"integrating"
if some is put in the primary fermentation.

Exactly right! That's why barrel fermented Chardonnay (e.g.) tastes
different from tank fermented Chardonnay that is subsequently barrel aged.
The oak flavor is more tightly integrated into the structure of the wine -
partly at least because the yeast tends to fine the harsh wood tannins.

Tom S

Excellent information. Thanks for the comments. Would it be safe to say
that oaking after fermentation should be done more conservatively since
it doesn't integrate as well?

--
Greg Cook
http://homepage.mac.com/gregcook/Wine

(remove spamblocker from my email address)

Greg,
I am of the opinion that you are correct, but I dont have the
trials/research to back these assumptions. All I can say is that through my
experieces that adding oak later... well it tastes like oak instead of an
intergral part of the wine. Just my experience which I think is important,
but not the difinitive answer as wine making is a very fluid and developing
process. Someone might like the taste of an oak plank.... I do not. HTH
John Dixon
"Greg Cook" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"J Dixon" wrote:

Greg,
I used to just add the Oak after Primary so I could monitor the
"oakiness" of the wine. I since, on the advice of Tom S started adding a
handful of Oak to 5-6 gal (french in my case) to the primary, and
lightly
rinsing it at racking and then add it back into the racked wine.
The best way I can describe the difference is that it was a lot
smoother tasting and seemed as you said more "intergrated" into the
wine. My
concern initially was that how much do you want to "over oak" the wine
before enough is enough to get it right after it mellows out? For me
that
was hard to judge because I was not used to Oaking my wine as a general
rule. In conclusion I have decided that the oak seems more naturally
intergrated into the wine when it is added from the start versus later
on.
Yes you can judge the oak more readily when it is added after
fermentation,
but the taste is definitely more course when the oak is added later on
in my
trials.
The tip from Tom S in regard to Oaking in my opinion is dead on.
HTH
John Dixon
"Tom S" wrote in message
om...

"Paul E. Lehmann" wrote in message
...
I know of at least one commercial winery that puts some oak chips in
the
primary fermentatin bins and then pumps into somewhat old barrels
after
pressing. I think it all depends on the age of the barrels and how
much
oak
extraction is wanted. I think the oak has a better chance of
"integrating"
if some is put in the primary fermentation.

Exactly right! That's why barrel fermented Chardonnay (e.g.) tastes
different from tank fermented Chardonnay that is subsequently barrel
aged.
The oak flavor is more tightly integrated into the structure of the
wine -
partly at least because the yeast tends to fine the harsh wood
tannins.

Tom S

Excellent information. Thanks for the comments. Would it be safe to say
that oaking after fermentation should be done more conservatively since
it doesn't integrate as well?

--
Greg Cook
http://homepage.mac.com/gregcook/Wine

(remove spamblocker from my email address)