I am fairly new to growing my own vines in England,and am looking for
a site to find out some of the details of pruning the vines during the
summers growth.In paticular I wish to know how to deal with over
vigorous growth,and whether to remove side shoots or laterals during
the summers rapid growth.Cheers michael

michael wrote:

I am fairly new to growing my own vines in
England,and am looking for a site to find out
some of the details of pruning the vines during
the summers growth.In paticular I wish to know
how to deal with over vigorous growth,and
whether to remove side shoots or laterals during
the summers rapid growth.Cheers michael

I can't offhand point you to a website but here in
the Mid Atlantic the short answer would be Yes,
control the vigorous growth.

I was at a "Field Day" meeting of the Maryland
Grape Growers Association (MGGA) recently and the
Viticulturists there said a "rule of thumb" is
that if someone is on the other side of the row
across from you, you should thin, position shoots
and leaf pull in order to see the color of the
clothing they are wearing - not to the point of
being able to specifically identify them.

Shoot length should be on the order of 4 feet long
and leaf pulling should be predominately on the
East side to allow early morning sun to
penetrate.

I don't know what trellising system you are using
but for most it is also important to keep the
shoots vertical and not let them cross over. The
cross over will happen very easily and it is
amazing how long some of the crossover shoots are
and how much shading they provide.

"michael" wrote in message
...
I am fairly new to growing my own vines in England,and am looking for
a site to find out some of the details of pruning the vines during the
summers growth.In paticular I wish to know how to deal with over
vigorous growth,and whether to remove side shoots or laterals during
the summers rapid growth.Cheers michael


Here are a few good sites:

http://www.canr.msu.edu/vanburen/e-1935.htm

http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/1000/1429.html

I googled "pruning grape vines" and got 159,000 hits.


Paul

On Jun 19, 5:36 am, michael wrote:
I am fairly new to growing my own vines in England,and am looking for
a site to find out some of the details of pruning the vines during the
summers growth.In paticular I wish to know how to deal with over
vigorous growth,and whether to remove side shoots or laterals during
the summers rapid growth.Cheers michael

There are great videos on viticulture on youtube.com. Also
http://www.crushnet.com/cms/media is a nice place to view some
vineyard pruning.
Dave

Pavel314 wrote:


"michael" wrote
in message

...
I am fairly new to growing my own vines in
England,and am looking for
a site to find out some of the details of
pruning the vines during the summers growth.In
paticular I wish to know how to deal with over
vigorous growth,and whether to remove side
shoots or laterals during the summers rapid
growth.Cheers michael


Here are a few good sites:

http://www.canr.msu.edu/vanburen/e-1935.htm

http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/1000/1429.html

I googled "pruning grape vines" and got 159,000
hits.


Paul

I think the OP was asking about "summer" pruning.
The references you provided are good but do not
address the issue of vigorous growth and what to
do about it during the summer - unless I missed
something - which is entirely possible in my
chronologically advantaged state.

We have a similar problem (excessive growth) here
in the Mid Atlantic. This year has seen
incredible growth because of the wet spring.

My advice for "summer" pruning is to:

Hedge the vines so the shoots are about 4 feet
long

Keep the shoots positioned vertically and not
allow to cross over each other

Leaf pull in the fruit zone - especially on the
eastern side.

Leaf pull throughout the canopy until you can "see
through it". This does not mean denuding the
vines but merely to the point where you can tell
if there is someone standing on the other side of
the vine from you - NOT to the point you can
identify them :-). This will allow air
circulation which is needed in areas of excessive
vigor.

All this information came from the Maryland Grape
Growers Association (MGGA) summer field education
program at a local vineyard and winery and was
presented by several viticulturalist from
Maryland and out of state.

One additonal thing worth mentioning for vigorous
growth areas:

Consider cane pruning instead of cordon spur
pruning. Cane pruning greatly diminishes "old"
wood. The only "old" wood is the trunk(s). Old
wood provides a home for fungi. Vineyards around
here that have gone to cane pruning have
experienced a lot less problem with fungus. It
is also a LOT easier to maintain the vines since
you do not have a lot of shoots from old wood
(which are non-productive) to prune away. I have
gone to cane pruning this year and I am very
pleased with the results.

There has always been a lot of controversy about
vine and row spacing but some of the new
plantings around here are going to 4 feet between
vines and 7 foot row spacing. They are aiming
for 12 buds per vine. This will typically work
out to a yield of about 3 tons per acre or a
little more depending on variety. This is a good
crop load around here for producing quality
wines.

the other Paul

On 20 Jun, 21:19, "Paul E. Lehmann" wrote:
Pavel314 wrote:

"michael" wrote
in message

...





I am fairly new to growing my own vines in
England,and am looking for
a site to find out some of the details of
pruning the vines during the summers growth.In
paticular I wish to know how to deal with over
vigorous growth,and whether to remove side
shoots or laterals during the summers rapid
growth.Cheers michael

Here are a few good sites:

http://www.canr.msu.edu/vanburen/e-1935.htm

http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/1000/1429.html

I googled "pruning grape vines" and got 159,000
hits.

Paul

I think the OP was asking about "summer" pruning.
The references you provided are good but do not
address the issue of vigorous growth and what to
do about it during the summer - unless I missed
something - which is entirely possible in my
chronologically advantaged state.

We have a similar problem (excessive growth) here
in the Mid Atlantic. *This year has seen
incredible growth because of the wet spring.

My advice for "summer" pruning is to:

Hedge the vines so the shoots are about 4 feet
long

Keep the shoots positioned vertically and not
allow to cross over each other

Leaf pull in the fruit zone - especially on the
eastern side. *

Leaf pull throughout the canopy until you can "see
through it". *This does not mean denuding the
vines but merely to the point where you can tell
if there is someone standing on the other side of
the vine from you - NOT to the point you can
identify them :-). *This will allow air
circulation which is needed in areas of excessive
vigor.

All this information came from the Maryland Grape
Growers Association (MGGA) summer field education
program at a local vineyard and winery and was
presented by several viticulturalist from
Maryland and out of state.

One additonal thing worth mentioning for vigorous
growth areas:

Consider cane pruning instead of cordon spur
pruning. *Cane pruning greatly diminishes "old"
wood. *The only "old" wood is the trunk(s). *Old
wood provides a home for fungi. *Vineyards around
here that have gone to cane pruning have
experienced a lot less problem with fungus. *It
is also a LOT easier to maintain the vines since
you do not have a lot of shoots from old wood
(which are non-productive) to prune away. *I have
gone to cane pruning this year and I am very
pleased with the results.

There has always been a lot of controversy about
vine and row spacing but some of the new
plantings around here are going to 4 feet between
vines and 7 foot row spacing. *They are aiming
for 12 buds per vine. *This will typically work
out to a yield of about 3 tons per acre or a
little more depending on variety. This is a good
crop load around here for producing quality
wines.

the other Paul- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Thanks for your replies.I am always tempted to prune the strong growth
canes in early summer,but resist it,since the side growths then go mad
creating another pruning problem.I have a Double Guyot trellis
system,with the bottom wires at about 18",then two double wires and
finally the top wire at about 5' 6".So your suggested 4' canes
correspond to my top wire.My reference book suggests pruning back to
the top wire in early August(i.e.4' canes),but my vines seem to reach
the top wire by mid June! If I prune them back then,then side growths
take over,so I tend to leave them until they get very long. I do
remove leaves in the lower part of the trellis (not completely of
course) at all times during the summer,to give good air
penetration,good spray coverage(mainly wettable sulphur for powdery
mildew) and later,warmth for grape ripening.Because of the vigour of
my vines (and I am on a sloping south facing site on thin limestone
very dry soil),I do not use any fertiliser,except the occasional wood
ash for the potash and a seaweed spray to help the grape set.This
early season in England is quite cool (18-20 degrees),but not wet.The
grapes were planted about 5 years ago,and seem to be getting more
vigorous each year-the roots must be finding something in the soil
they like,but my experience when digging is that below about 1 foot
the soil become very stony-our cottage is called Rock Cottage for good
reason! I would welcome further advice,and thanks again.Cheers,Michael

michael wrote:

On 20 Jun, 21:19, "Paul E. Lehmann"
wrote:
Pavel314 wrote:

"michael"
wrote in message


...





I am fairly new to growing my own vines in
England,and am looking for
a site to find out some of the details of
pruning the vines during the summers
growth.In paticular I wish to know how to
deal with over vigorous growth,and whether
to remove side shoots or laterals during the
summers rapid growth.Cheers michael

Here are a few good sites:

http://www.canr.msu.edu/vanburen/e-1935.htm


http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/1000/1429.html

I googled "pruning grape vines" and got
159,000 hits.

Paul

I think the OP was asking about "summer"
pruning. The references you provided are good
but do not address the issue of vigorous growth
and what to do about it during the summer -
unless I missed something - which is entirely
possible in my chronologically advantaged
state.

We have a similar problem (excessive growth)
here in the Mid Atlantic. *This year has seen
incredible growth because of the wet spring.

My advice for "summer" pruning is to:

Hedge the vines so the shoots are about 4 feet
long

Keep the shoots positioned vertically and not
allow to cross over each other

Leaf pull in the fruit zone - especially on the
eastern side.

Leaf pull throughout the canopy until you can
"see through it". *This does not mean denuding
the vines but merely to the point where you can
tell if there is someone standing on the other
side of the vine from you - NOT to the point
you can identify them :-). *This will allow air
circulation which is needed in areas of
excessive vigor.

All this information came from the Maryland
Grape Growers Association (MGGA) summer field
education program at a local vineyard and
winery and was presented by several
viticulturalist from Maryland and out of state.

One additonal thing worth mentioning for
vigorous growth areas:

Consider cane pruning instead of cordon spur
pruning. *Cane pruning greatly diminishes "old"
wood. *The only "old" wood is the trunk(s).
Old wood provides a home for fungi. *Vineyards
around here that have gone to cane pruning have
experienced a lot less problem with fungus. *It
is also a LOT easier to maintain the vines
since you do not have a lot of shoots from old
wood (which are non-productive) to prune away.
I have gone to cane pruning this year and I am
very pleased with the results.

There has always been a lot of controversy
about vine and row spacing but some of the new
plantings around here are going to 4 feet
between vines and 7 foot row spacing. *They are
aiming for 12 buds per vine. *This will
typically work out to a yield of about 3 tons
per acre or a little more depending on variety.
This is a good crop load around here for
producing quality wines.

the other Paul- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Thanks for your replies.I am always tempted to
prune the strong growth canes in early
summer,but resist it,since the side growths then
go mad creating another pruning problem.

Yep, that is the problem with hedging. It does
promote lateral growth and these have to be
controlled. A point of interest though; leaves
reach their maximum efficiency after about 60 to
90 days. Most of the photosynthesis comes from
the new and younger leaves. Around here we have
a problem with Japanese beatles starting around
July. I think it is important to keep them under
control as they eat the young shoot tips and this
is were most of the energy for the plant is
coming from


I have a
Double Guyot trellis system,with the bottom
wires at about 18",then two double wires and
finally the top wire at about 5' 6".So your
suggested 4' canes correspond to my top wire.My
reference book suggests pruning back to the top
wire in early August(i.e.4' canes),but my vines
seem to reach
the top wire by mid June!

Yep, I had to hedge last two weeks ago. Last year
I let some of my shoots grow just to see how long
they would get. They got to over 20 feet in
length by fall.

If I prune them back
then,then side growths take over,so I tend to
leave them until they get very long. I do remove
leaves in the lower part of the trellis (not
completely of course) at all times during the
summer,to give good air penetration,good spray
coverage(mainly wettable sulphur for powdery
mildew) and later,warmth for grape
ripening.Because of the vigour of my vines (and
I am on a sloping south facing site on thin
limestone very dry soil),I do not use any
fertiliser,except the occasional wood ash for
the potash and a seaweed spray to help the grape
set.

Grapes don't need much in the way of fertilizer -
around here that is. Some have used Nitrogen
with disastrous effects - talk about a jungle!!!

You may want to check your potassium level. Too
much can give you a real high pH wine. Around
here we have agricultural extension services
which can do leaf petiole analysis. The best
time for analysis is either at bloom using the
petioles across from the flower clusters or at
verasion using the petioles from the fully
developed leaves high up in the canopy. I did
not know this until last week and had been
waiting until verasion and using the petioles in
the fruit zone.

This early season in England is quite cool
(18-20 degrees),but not wet.The grapes were
planted about 5 years ago,and seem to be getting
more vigorous each year-the roots must be
finding something in the soil they like,but my
experience when digging is that below about 1
foot the soil become very stony-our cottage is
called Rock Cottage for good reason! I would
welcome further advice,and thanks
again.Cheers,Michael

Ok - I will pass along anything I learn and please
do the same for me.

Paul

On Jun 19, 4:36*am, michael wrote:
I am fairly new to growing my own vines in England,and am looking for
a site to find out some of the details of pruning the vines during the
summers growth.In paticular I wish to know how to deal with over
vigorous growth,and whether to remove side shoots or laterals during
the summers rapid growth.Cheers michael

Here is a link to a new article on pruning by Lon Rombough, one of the
foremost grape experts in the U.S. not associated with a university
program. He recommends caution in growing season pruning.

http://www.bunchgrapes.com/pruning_grapes.html

shbailey wrote:

On Jun 19, 4:36*am, michael
wrote:
I am fairly new to growing my own vines in
England,and am looking for a site to find out
some of the details of pruning the vines during
the summers growth.In paticular I wish to know
how to deal with over vigorous growth,and
whether to remove side shoots or laterals
during the summers rapid growth.Cheers michael

Here is a link to a new article on pruning by
Lon Rombough, one of the foremost grape experts
in the U.S. not associated with a university
program. He recommends caution in growing
season pruning.

http://www.bunchgrapes.com/pruning_grapes.html

I wonder if the author has experience growing
vines in climates that have excessive moisture.
We can not control moisture in my region of the
country and we use little or no fertilizer except
if trace elements are missing or very low.

If hedging is not done, canes will grow to at
least 20 feet in length. Studies have shown that
this will produce very poor quality wine.

I agree that hedging should be timed so that the
new leaves and laterals are contributing to the
ripening of the fruit. I do not hedge after the
first of August. At this time the vines are
putting energy into ripening the fruit.

Leaf pulling in the fruit zone is necessary in my
area (Mid Atlantic) to allow air circulation and
allow spray to reach clusters. Also a dense
canopy offers a very hospitable hosts for fungi
and also areas where spray can not reach. If you
have yellow leaves in the interior of your
canopy, then the probably reason is that they
simply are not receiving enough sun.

It should be noted that the leaves in the fruiting
zone are not providing much in the way of
carbohydrates to the vine by mid summer. 60 to
90 days after opening they are in old age and not
contributing to anything except restriction of
air flow and spray.

Where I live, the viticulturists runs research
farms that actually grow grapes so their work is
NOT strictly academic but tested by field trials
and experience.

There has been and continues to be a difference of
opinion on controlling vigor. At one time Dr.
Richard Smart promoted the idea of controlling
vigor by having greater vine spacing and longer
cordons. This was tried and the result was very
long cordons with very high vigor and excessive
growth - in short - it did not work.

It should be noted that what works for one in a
certain area may not work for others in a
different area or there may be differences
between varieties in a given area.

The best advice is to experiment and see what
works best for you.

I agree with evrything Lon said. Laterals are grown by the vine to
help it ripen the grapes. Pruning them off is not the right thing.
What can be done is to take every other shoot off the vine so as to
give each shoot double the space and leave the shoots alone. Hedging
the main shoot is better than cutting the laterals. I also agree with
him on leaf pulling and have experience that there is no difference in
taste if you leave the leaves. Proper spraying and growing positioning
will keep the friut fungus free.

Bob

On Jun 23, 12:46*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" wrote:
shbailey wrote:
On Jun 19, 4:36*am, michael
wrote:
I am fairly new to growing my own vines in
England,and am looking for a site to find out
some of the details of pruning the vines during
the summers growth.In paticular I wish to know
how to deal with over vigorous growth,and
whether to remove side shoots or laterals
during the summers rapid growth.Cheers michael

Here is a link to a new article on pruning by
Lon Rombough, one of the foremost grape experts
in the U.S. not associated with a university
program. *He recommends caution in growing
season pruning.

http://www.bunchgrapes.com/pruning_grapes.html

I wonder if the author has experience growing
vines in climates that have excessive moisture.
We can not control moisture in my region of the
country and we use little or no fertilizer except
if trace elements are missing or very low. *

If hedging is not done, canes will grow to at
least 20 feet in length. *Studies have shown that
this will produce very poor quality wine. *

I agree that hedging should be timed so that the
new leaves and laterals are contributing to the
ripening of the fruit. *I do not hedge after the
first of August. *At this time the vines are
putting energy into ripening the fruit.

Leaf pulling in the fruit zone is necessary in my
area (Mid Atlantic) to allow air circulation and
allow spray to reach clusters. *Also a dense
canopy offers a very hospitable hosts for fungi
and also areas where spray can not reach. If you
have yellow leaves in the interior of your
canopy, then the probably reason is that they
simply are not receiving enough sun.

It should be noted that the leaves in the fruiting
zone are not providing much in the way of
carbohydrates to the vine by mid summer. *60 to
90 days after opening they are in old age and not
contributing to anything except restriction of
air flow and spray.

Where I live, the viticulturists runs research
farms that actually grow grapes so their work is
NOT strictly academic but tested by field trials
and experience.

There has been and continues to be a difference of
opinion on controlling vigor. *At one time Dr.
Richard Smart promoted the idea of controlling
vigor by having greater vine spacing and longer
cordons. *This was tried and the result was very
long cordons with very high vigor and excessive
growth - in short - it did not work.

It should be noted that what works for one in a
certain area may not work for others in a
different area or there may be differences
between varieties in a given area.

The best advice is to experiment and see what
works best for you.

wrote:
I agree with evrything Lon said. Laterals are grown by the vine to
help it ripen the grapes. Pruning them off is not the right thing.

Bob:

I've got to disagree here. My experience in the rainy Northeast US is
that leaving the laterals on my FA hybrids, on my high-vigor site is a
recipe for dense, impenetrable growth , fungus problems, and undrerripe
fruit. My site gets 55 to 60 inches of rain, has some tall surrounding
trees, and is crossed by several springs & streams. Humidity is high
from now til the Fall, and then we get hurricanes. If I didn't pinch the
laterals, basal leaf strip, AND hedge the 6' canes as they reach the
ground, I'd get a poor crop this year and a really sparse one next year.

Wanna know how I know this? Well, let's just say I too read Dr Smart's
"Sunlight into Wine". What works in Australia & New Zealand Emphatically
doesn't work around here. It took a few years to experiment with and
recover from his advice.

I do agree that basal leaf pulling seems to have little effect on taste,
but we need to do it to air out the canopy. Besides, those leaves
don't feed the berries anyway.


To Paul:

It's my understanding that leaving the laterals results in a lot of
vegetative growth, and a higher percentage of very young leaves, in
almost a geometric progression. The problem is that the new leaves don't
become net exporters of carbohydrates until about 3 1/2 to 4 weeks of
age. If there are a lot of laterals, they seem to shade out the
middle-aged, carb exporting leaves deeper in the canopy, and the fruit
has delayed or incomplete ripening. Maybe it would be different in a
sunnier, drier climate.This is another counter-intuitive lesson that I
learned the hard way. I now remove all laterals and non-fruiting canes.


To Michael:

My main method of dealing with my enthusiastically growing vines is to
train them in the Sylvoz or High Curtain system, with a single wire at
about 6' and two movable catch wires. Cordons run left & right on the
wire, and canes are swept under the catch wires, which are gradually
lowered until the canes hang down. This really devigorates most
varieties and keeps the fruit at an easy picking height, and well above
soil splashed fungi & spores, something you probably need to consider too.
It also makes it easier to cover the rows with bird netting.
When the canes make it to the ground, they automatically get hedged when
I mow the grassy aisles.

I hope you can find some of these ideas useful

Great discussion, guys.

Mike


Mike MTM, Cokesbury, NJ, USA

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Mike McGeough wrote:

wrote:
I agree with evrything Lon said. Laterals are
grown by the vine to help it ripen the grapes.
Pruning them off is not the right thing.

Nature really does not really give a flip whether
the grapes are "ripe" in terms of winemaking
"ripeness". Nature's only motive is perpetuation
of the species. Laterals produce grapes. More
grapes mean more food for birds and a greater
chance for a few seeds to survive after the birds
eat the grapes and "dispose" of the seeds and
help spread the species.


Bob:

I've got to disagree here. My experience in the
rainy Northeast US is that leaving the laterals
on my FA hybrids, on my high-vigor site is a
recipe for dense, impenetrable growth , fungus
problems, and undrerripe fruit. My site gets 55
to 60 inches of rain, has some tall surrounding
trees, and is crossed by several springs &
streams. Humidity is high from now til the Fall,
and then we get hurricanes. If I didn't pinch
the laterals, basal leaf strip, AND hedge the 6'
canes as they reach the ground, I'd get a poor
crop this year and a really sparse one next
year.

Wanna know how I know this? Well, let's just say
I too read Dr Smart's "Sunlight into Wine". What
works in Australia & New Zealand Emphatically
doesn't work around here. It took a few years to
experiment with and recover from his advice.

I do agree that basal leaf pulling seems to have
little effect on taste,
but we need to do it to air out the canopy.
Besides, those leaves
don't feed the berries anyway.


To Paul:

It's my understanding that leaving the laterals
results in a lot of vegetative growth,

and results in vegetative character to the wine.

and a
higher percentage of very young leaves, in
almost a geometric progression. The problem is
that the new leaves don't become net exporters
of carbohydrates until about 3 1/2 to 4 weeks of
age.

I agree totally and this is why I think timing of
hedging is important. Hedging will promote
lateral growth so it is important that it is done
before ripening commences and give a chance for
the new leaves to be exporters.

If I did not hedge, my shoots would be 20+ feet
long. I have not heard anyone say what should be
done with 20 long shoots - except hedge them.

Yes, I have heard that forcing downward growth of
the shoots can help de-vigor vines. It also is
suppose to help prevent deer damage.

I tried the "Lyre" trellising to help de-vigor the
vines but man, talk about a jungle. I had a
micro climate in the vineyard similar to that of
a jungle because that is what it was. Keeping
the middle free of shoots and laterals was VERY
labor extensive - even for a small backyard
vineyard.

What you effectively end up with using your
trellising system is 6 foot long shoots which is
not unreasonable. There has been some research
done that indicates that 4 feet is about the
ideal length but I think that most of this
research was done in California where drip
irrigation can "IV" the vines to control vigor.

If there are a lot of laterals, they seem
to shade out the middle-aged, carb exporting
leaves deeper in the canopy, and the fruit has
delayed or incomplete ripening.

Very true.

Maybe it would
be different in a sunnier, drier climate.This is
another counter-intuitive lesson that I learned
the hard way. I now remove all laterals and
non-fruiting canes.

Me too. That is one of the advantages of cane
pruning in my opinion; it GREATLY reduces the
number of non-fruiting canes. It makes it easier
to maintain the vineyard.



To Michael:

My main method of dealing with my
enthusiastically growing vines is to train them
in the Sylvoz or High Curtain system, with a
single wire at about 6' and two movable catch
wires. Cordons run left & right on the wire, and
canes are swept under the catch wires, which are
gradually lowered until the canes hang down.
This really devigorates most varieties and keeps
the fruit at an easy picking height, and well
above soil splashed fungi & spores, something
you probably need to consider too. It also makes
it easier to cover the rows with bird netting.
When the canes make it to the ground, they
automatically get hedged when I mow the grassy
aisles.

I hope you can find some of these ideas useful

Great discussion, guys.

Mike


Mike MTM, Cokesbury, NJ, USA

Thanks for your input, Mike.


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"Laterals produce grapes. "

No they don't . Not sure what part of the vine you think is a lateral
but laterals don't produce grapes..

Mike:

It sounds like you are growing grapes in soil too wet for optimal
grape growing. In that case I guess you have no choice. I am lucky t
have a well drained sandy soil where excessive moisture is never the
problem. Not sure if the canopy is your only problem when it comes to
fungus, your environment seems to be just as guilty in causing fungus
problems. I would keep the grass short so it doesn't trap moisture
under the long grass.

Bob

On Jun 23, 8:45 pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" wrote:
Mike McGeough wrote:
wrote:
I agree with evrything Lon said. Laterals are
grown by the vine to help it ripen the grapes.
Pruning them off is not the right thing.

Nature really does not really give a flip whether
the grapes are "ripe" in terms of winemaking
"ripeness". Nature's only motive is perpetuation
of the species. Laterals produce grapes. More
grapes mean more food for birds and a greater
chance for a few seeds to survive after the birds
eat the grapes and "dispose" of the seeds and
help spread the species.





Bob:

I've got to disagree here. My experience in the
rainy Northeast US is that leaving the laterals
on my FA hybrids, on my high-vigor site is a
recipe for dense, impenetrable growth , fungus
problems, and undrerripe fruit. My site gets 55
to 60 inches of rain, has some tall surrounding
trees, and is crossed by several springs &
streams. Humidity is high from now til the Fall,
and then we get hurricanes. If I didn't pinch
the laterals, basal leaf strip, AND hedge the 6'
canes as they reach the ground, I'd get a poor
crop this year and a really sparse one next
year.

Wanna know how I know this? Well, let's just say
I too read Dr Smart's "Sunlight into Wine". What
works in Australia & New Zealand Emphatically
doesn't work around here. It took a few years to
experiment with and recover from his advice.

I do agree that basal leaf pulling seems to have
little effect on taste,
but we need to do it to air out the canopy.
Besides, those leaves
don't feed the berries anyway.

To Paul:

It's my understanding that leaving the laterals
results in a lot of vegetative growth,

and results in vegetative character to the wine.

and a
higher percentage of very young leaves, in
almost a geometric progression. The problem is
that the new leaves don't become net exporters
of carbohydrates until about 3 1/2 to 4 weeks of
age.

I agree totally and this is why I think timing of
hedging is important. Hedging will promote
lateral growth so it is important that it is done
before ripening commences and give a chance for
the new leaves to be exporters.

If I did not hedge, my shoots would be 20+ feet
long. I have not heard anyone say what should be
done with 20 long shoots - except hedge them.

Yes, I have heard that forcing downward growth of
the shoots can help de-vigor vines. It also is
suppose to help prevent deer damage.

I tried the "Lyre" trellising to help de-vigor the
vines but man, talk about a jungle. I had a
micro climate in the vineyard similar to that of
a jungle because that is what it was. Keeping
the middle free of shoots and laterals was VERY
labor extensive - even for a small backyard
vineyard.

What you effectively end up with using your
trellising system is 6 foot long shoots which is
not unreasonable. There has been some research
done that indicates that 4 feet is about the
ideal length but I think that most of this
research was done in California where drip
irrigation can "IV" the vines to control vigor.

If there are a lot of laterals, they seem
to shade out the middle-aged, carb exporting
leaves deeper in the canopy, and the fruit has
delayed or incomplete ripening.

Very true.

Maybe it would
be different in a sunnier, drier climate.This is
another counter-intuitive lesson that I learned
the hard way. I now remove all laterals and
non-fruiting canes.

Me too. That is one of the advantages of cane
pruning in my opinion; it GREATLY reduces the
number of non-fruiting canes. It makes it easier
to maintain the vineyard.





To Michael:

My main method of dealing with my
enthusiastically growing vines is to train them
in the Sylvoz or High Curtain system, with a
single wire at about 6' and two movable catch
wires. Cordons run left & right on the wire, and
canes are swept under the catch wires, which are
gradually lowered until the canes hang down.
This really devigorates most varieties and keeps
the fruit at an easy picking height, and well
above soil splashed fungi & spores, something
you probably need to consider too. It also makes
it easier to cover the rows with bird netting.
When the canes make it to the ground, they
automatically get hedged when I mow the grassy
aisles.

I hope you can find some of these ideas useful

Great discussion, guys.

Mike

Mike MTM, Cokesbury, NJ, USA

Thanks for your input, Mike.



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Mike,

One more thought. When grapes grow, they usually shoot laterals close
to the fruiting area after bloom to aid in ripining. Those are the
laterals that you should keep. Hedge the vine about 4 feet from the
base of the shoot and hedge off any laterals that form from those
hedges. If the laterals formed by the vine close to the fruiting area
get to long, hedge them but dont cut them off totally. Maybe leave 2
feet on each lateral , there should be 2, and hedge off all other
laterals formed because of the hedging below( I'm assuning high
cordon).
In a well drained soil you would have these problems but it is what
it is and we have to deal with what we're dealt.

Bob

On Jun 23, 8:03 pm, Mike McGeough wrote:
wrote:
I agree with evrything Lon said. Laterals are grown by the vine to
help it ripen the grapes. Pruning them off is not the right thing.

Bob:

I've got to disagree here. My experience in the rainy Northeast US is
that leaving the laterals on my FA hybrids, on my high-vigor site is a
recipe for dense, impenetrable growth , fungus problems, and undrerripe
fruit. My site gets 55 to 60 inches of rain, has some tall surrounding
trees, and is crossed by several springs & streams. Humidity is high
from now til the Fall, and then we get hurricanes. If I didn't pinch the
laterals, basal leaf strip, AND hedge the 6' canes as they reach the
ground, I'd get a poor crop this year and a really sparse one next year.

Wanna know how I know this? Well, let's just say I too read Dr Smart's
"Sunlight into Wine". What works in Australia & New Zealand Emphatically
doesn't work around here. It took a few years to experiment with and
recover from his advice.

I do agree that basal leaf pulling seems to have little effect on taste,
but we need to do it to air out the canopy. Besides, those leaves
don't feed the berries anyway.

To Paul:

It's my understanding that leaving the laterals results in a lot of
vegetative growth, and a higher percentage of very young leaves, in
almost a geometric progression. The problem is that the new leaves don't
become net exporters of carbohydrates until about 3 1/2 to 4 weeks of
age. If there are a lot of laterals, they seem to shade out the
middle-aged, carb exporting leaves deeper in the canopy, and the fruit
has delayed or incomplete ripening. Maybe it would be different in a
sunnier, drier climate.This is another counter-intuitive lesson that I
learned the hard way. I now remove all laterals and non-fruiting canes.

To Michael:

My main method of dealing with my enthusiastically growing vines is to
train them in the Sylvoz or High Curtain system, with a single wire at
about 6' and two movable catch wires. Cordons run left & right on the
wire, and canes are swept under the catch wires, which are gradually
lowered until the canes hang down. This really devigorates most
varieties and keeps the fruit at an easy picking height, and well above
soil splashed fungi & spores, something you probably need to consider too.
It also makes it easier to cover the rows with bird netting.
When the canes make it to the ground, they automatically get hedged when
I mow the grassy aisles.

I hope you can find some of these ideas useful

Great discussion, guys.

Mike

Mike MTM, Cokesbury, NJ, USA

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"Besides, those leaves
don't feed the berries anyway. "

Oh yeah they do. They are actually the most important on the shoot.



Jun 23, 8:03 pm, Mike McGeough wrote:
wrote:
I agree with evrything Lon said. Laterals are grown by the vine to
help it ripen the grapes. Pruning them off is not the right thing.

Bob:

I've got to disagree here. My experience in the rainy Northeast US is
that leaving the laterals on my FA hybrids, on my high-vigor site is a
recipe for dense, impenetrable growth , fungus problems, and undrerripe
fruit. My site gets 55 to 60 inches of rain, has some tall surrounding
trees, and is crossed by several springs & streams. Humidity is high
from now til the Fall, and then we get hurricanes. If I didn't pinch the
laterals, basal leaf strip, AND hedge the 6' canes as they reach the
ground, I'd get a poor crop this year and a really sparse one next year.

Wanna know how I know this? Well, let's just say I too read Dr Smart's
"Sunlight into Wine". What works in Australia & New Zealand Emphatically
doesn't work around here. It took a few years to experiment with and
recover from his advice.

I do agree that basal leaf pulling seems to have little effect on taste,
but we need to do it to air out the canopy. Besides, those leaves
don't feed the berries anyway.

To Paul:

It's my understanding that leaving the laterals results in a lot of
vegetative growth, and a higher percentage of very young leaves, in
almost a geometric progression. The problem is that the new leaves don't
become net exporters of carbohydrates until about 3 1/2 to 4 weeks of
age. If there are a lot of laterals, they seem to shade out the
middle-aged, carb exporting leaves deeper in the canopy, and the fruit
has delayed or incomplete ripening. Maybe it would be different in a
sunnier, drier climate.This is another counter-intuitive lesson that I
learned the hard way. I now remove all laterals and non-fruiting canes.

To Michael:

My main method of dealing with my enthusiastically growing vines is to
train them in the Sylvoz or High Curtain system, with a single wire at
about 6' and two movable catch wires. Cordons run left & right on the
wire, and canes are swept under the catch wires, which are gradually
lowered until the canes hang down. This really devigorates most
varieties and keeps the fruit at an easy picking height, and well above
soil splashed fungi & spores, something you probably need to consider too.
It also makes it easier to cover the rows with bird netting.
When the canes make it to the ground, they automatically get hedged when
I mow the grassy aisles.

I hope you can find some of these ideas useful

Great discussion, guys.

Mike

Mike MTM, Cokesbury, NJ, USA

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