In my continuing quest to kill this batch of wine, I have messed up
the acid balance.

Here is the story:
I have a 5 gallon batch of Cabernet Sauvignon (from concentrate) that
has finished primary.
Prior to inoculating, I measured the reconstituted juice and found
that the titrateable acid was very low, about .3%. I wanted to raise
the acidity to between .6% and .7%.
In order to do this, I used the following formula:

4.1g Tartaric Acid/1 gallon = .1% rise

So in order to raise 5 gallons of wine to .65% (a .35% rise) I
calculated the following:

5(4.1g)/5(1) gallon=.1% rise
3.5(20.5g/5gal)=3.5(.1%) rise
71.75g/5gal=.35% rise

I added this acid to the juice and re-measured the TA. It was up to .
4%
After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .4%
I added another 20g.

After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .45%
I added another 20g.

After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .45%
I then added 40g.

After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .7%
good

Now, almost 2 months later, I re-measured and the TA is .82
Crap
The taste is very tart. Go figure.

So, what is the best way to add acid? Should I have waited longer
before adding more? Does it take a while for the acid to fully
dissolve?

Where did I go wrong?

On Mar 17, 12:08 am, Wayne Harris wrote:
In my continuing quest to kill this batch of wine, I have messed up
the acid balance.

Here is the story:
I have a 5 gallon batch of Cabernet Sauvignon (from concentrate) that
has finished primary.
Prior to inoculating, I measured the reconstituted juice and found
that the titrateable acid was very low, about .3%. I wanted to raise
the acidity to between .6% and .7%.
In order to do this, I used the following formula:

4.1g Tartaric Acid/1 gallon = .1% rise

So in order to raise 5 gallons of wine to .65% (a .35% rise) I
calculated the following:

5(4.1g)/5(1) gallon=.1% rise
3.5(20.5g/5gal)=3.5(.1%) rise
71.75g/5gal=.35% rise

I added this acid to the juice and re-measured the TA. It was up to .
4%
After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .4%
I added another 20g.

After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .45%
I added another 20g.

After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .45%
I then added 40g.

After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .7%
good

Now, almost 2 months later, I re-measured and the TA is .82
Crap
The taste is very tart. Go figure.

So, what is the best way to add acid? Should I have waited longer
before adding more? Does it take a while for the acid to fully
dissolve?

Where did I go wrong?

Hi Wayne, I am no expert, but I am pretty sure that the initial
addition of acid (72g) was correct to raise the acidity to 0.7% After
adding it I would have stirred very well without splashing and been
happy with that. If I was to wanted to double check, I would have
waited 12 hours or so after stirring and then given it another lesser
stir before measuring. In my experience the apparent acid after a
decent stirring is always lesser immediately than it is after a few
hours or even a day.

I guess it was a mistake to fear that the acid 'hadnt worked' and add
more, especially so soon.

For future reference (just as an idea) the webpage at
http://web2.airmail.net/sgross/fermc...lc_applet.html is an
excellent tool for quickly calculating/double checking additions of
acid and sugar (as well as other useful tools). I don't carry the
maths in my head (I should remember the square at least) and use this
tool often to work out my wine details.

I also suspect - though I court corroboration for this or denial -
that it is a good idea to aim for a middling acid level (for the given
type of wine) the first time you make it. Maybe adjust up and down
from there after tasting the finished wine. Maybe just using the
information for the next batch. That is my approach now in making
country wines. Until recently I aimed for almost the maximum acids
for my wines as well as the maximum suggested tannin levels. I am
starting to see that not every wine suits the acid levels I've used.
Though I have yet to regret my tannic addition...

I don't know if the wine heads here have any better suggestions, but
all I can think is that ideally you would buy a 6 gallon secondary
and add another gallon of juice to the must (adjusting sugar levels if
required). Then gently adjusting the acid if required to a more
forgiving level. Some say its not a good idea to add acid during
fermentation, I haven't tried it myself, but I doubt it can do much
harm if it is done gently...

You could if necessary try chemical acid reduction. I did this for a
rhubarb wine and it worked very well. It does require that you add
winemakers chalk (calcium carbonate?) to reduce the acid by a given
amount.

Anyway, I digress, I guess you asked about where you went wrong rather
than potential fixes, but I've had some of my plum wine and I figure
it can't hurt...

Good luck, Jim

On Mar 16, 8:53 pm, jim c wrote:
On Mar 17, 12:08 am, Wayne Harris wrote:



In my continuing quest to kill this batch of wine, I have messed up
the acid balance.

Here is the story:
I have a 5 gallon batch of Cabernet Sauvignon (from concentrate) that
has finished primary.
Prior to inoculating, I measured the reconstituted juice and found
that the titrateable acid was very low, about .3%. I wanted to raise
the acidity to between .6% and .7%.
In order to do this, I used the following formula:

4.1g Tartaric Acid/1 gallon = .1% rise

So in order to raise 5 gallons of wine to .65% (a .35% rise) I
calculated the following:

5(4.1g)/5(1) gallon=.1% rise
3.5(20.5g/5gal)=3.5(.1%) rise
71.75g/5gal=.35% rise

I added this acid to the juice and re-measured the TA. It was up to .
4%
After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .4%
I added another 20g.

After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .45%
I added another 20g.

After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .45%
I then added 40g.

After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .7%
good

Now, almost 2 months later, I re-measured and the TA is .82
Crap
The taste is very tart. Go figure.

So, what is the best way to add acid? Should I have waited longer
before adding more? Does it take a while for the acid to fully
dissolve?

Where did I go wrong?

Hi Wayne, I am no expert, but I am pretty sure that the initial
addition of acid (72g) was correct to raise the acidity to 0.7% After
adding it I would have stirred very well without splashing and been
happy with that. If I was to wanted to double check, I would have
waited 12 hours or so after stirring and then given it another lesser
stir before measuring. In my experience the apparent acid after a
decent stirring is always lesser immediately than it is after a few
hours or even a day.

I guess it was a mistake to fear that the acid 'hadnt worked' and add
more, especially so soon.

For future reference (just as an idea) the webpage athttp://web2.airmail.net/sgross/fermcalc/fermcalc_applet.htmlis an
excellent tool for quickly calculating/double checking additions of
acid and sugar (as well as other useful tools). I don't carry the
maths in my head (I should remember the square at least) and use this
tool often to work out my wine details.

I also suspect - though I court corroboration for this or denial -
that it is a good idea to aim for a middling acid level (for the given
type of wine) the first time you make it. Maybe adjust up and down
from there after tasting the finished wine. Maybe just using the
information for the next batch. That is my approach now in making
country wines. Until recently I aimed for almost the maximum acids
for my wines as well as the maximum suggested tannin levels. I am
starting to see that not every wine suits the acid levels I've used.
Though I have yet to regret my tannic addition...

I don't know if the wine heads here have any better suggestions, but
all I can think is that ideally you would buy a 6 gallon secondary
and add another gallon of juice to the must (adjusting sugar levels if
required). Then gently adjusting the acid if required to a more
forgiving level. Some say its not a good idea to add acid during
fermentation, I haven't tried it myself, but I doubt it can do much
harm if it is done gently...

You could if necessary try chemical acid reduction. I did this for a
rhubarb wine and it worked very well. It does require that you add
winemakers chalk (calcium carbonate?) to reduce the acid by a given
amount.

Anyway, I digress, I guess you asked about where you went wrong rather
than potential fixes, but I've had some of my plum wine and I figure
it can't hurt...

Good luck, Jim

Wow. First off, kit wines are pre-balanced so the need to make a
drastic change like that is questionable. Use your taste buds as a
tie breaker, always. They are the best instrument you own.

Next, never add that much acid. I think you acid test kit is bad, the
NAOH may be off. You are literally measuring tartaric acid per given
quantity, it sounds like you added way too much.

That said, get the wine as cold as possible 28F is ideal. That will
pull excess tartaric out

Please don't take this wrong, I'm not being critical. All I'm saying
is the real art in winemaking is knowing when to say no, you seem to
have gotten too into getting the numbers right to stop and do a
reality check on them.

Don't give up, chill it.

Joe

On Mar 17, 5:33*am, Joe Sallustio wrote:
On Mar 16, 8:53 pm, jim c wrote:





On Mar 17, 12:08 am, Wayne Harris wrote:

In my continuing quest to kill this batch of wine, I have messed up
the acid balance.

Here is the story:
I have a 5 gallon batch of Cabernet Sauvignon (from concentrate) that
has finished primary.
Prior to inoculating, I measured the reconstituted juice and found
that the titrateable acid was very low, about .3%. *I wanted to raise
the acidity to between .6% and .7%.
In order to do this, I used the following formula:

4.1g Tartaric Acid/1 gallon = .1% rise

So in order to raise 5 gallons of wine to .65% (a .35% rise) I
calculated the following:

5(4.1g)/5(1) gallon=.1% rise
3.5(20.5g/5gal)=3.5(.1%) rise
71.75g/5gal=.35% rise

I added this acid to the juice and re-measured the TA. *It was up to

On Mar 17, 7:06*am, Wayne Harris wrote:
On Mar 17, 5:33*am, Joe Sallustio wrote:





On Mar 16, 8:53 pm, jim c wrote:

On Mar 17, 12:08 am, Wayne Harris wrote:

In my continuing quest to kill this batch of wine, I have messed up
the acid balance.

Here is the story:
I have a 5 gallon batch of Cabernet Sauvignon (from concentrate) that
has finished primary.
Prior to inoculating, I measured the reconstituted juice and found
that the titrateable acid was very low, about .3%. *I wanted to raise
the acidity to between .6% and .7%.
In order to do this, I used the following formula:

4.1g Tartaric Acid/1 gallon = .1% rise

So in order to raise 5 gallons of wine to .65% (a .35% rise) I
calculated the following:

5(4.1g)/5(1) gallon=.1% rise
3.5(20.5g/5gal)=3.5(.1%) rise
71.75g/5gal=.35% rise

I added this acid to the juice and re-measured the TA. *It was up to .
4%
After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .4%
I added another 20g.

After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .45%
I added another 20g.

After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .45%
I then added *40g.

After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .7%
good

Now, almost 2 months later, I re-measured and the TA is .82
Crap
The taste is very tart. Go figure.

So, what is the best way to add acid? *Should I have waited longer
before adding more? *Does it take a while for the acid to fully
dissolve?

Where did I go wrong?

Hi Wayne, I am no expert, but I am pretty sure that the initial
addition of acid (72g) was correct to raise the acidity to 0.7% *After
adding it I would have stirred very well without splashing and been
happy with that. *If I was to wanted to double check, I would have
waited 12 hours or so after stirring and then given it another lesser
stir before measuring. *In my experience the apparent acid after a
decent stirring is always lesser immediately than it is after a few
hours or even a day.

I guess it was a mistake to fear that the acid 'hadnt worked' and add
more, especially so soon.

For future reference (just as an idea) the webpage athttp://web2.airmail.net/sgross/fermcalc/fermcalc_applet.htmlisan
excellent tool for quickly calculating/double checking additions of
acid and sugar (as well as other useful tools). *I don't carry the
maths in my head (I should remember the square at least) and use this
tool often to work out my wine details.

I also suspect - though I court corroboration for this or denial -
that it is a good idea to aim for a middling acid level (for the given
type of wine) the first time you make it. *Maybe adjust up and down
from there after tasting the finished wine. *Maybe just using the
information for the next batch. *That is my approach now in making
country wines. *Until recently I aimed for almost the maximum acids
for my wines as well as the maximum suggested tannin levels. *I am
starting to see that not every wine suits the acid levels I've used.
Though I have yet to regret my tannic addition...

I don't know if the wine heads here have any better suggestions, but
all I can think is that ideally you would buy a 6 gallon secondary
and add another gallon of juice to the must (adjusting sugar levels if
required). *Then gently adjusting the acid if required to a more
forgiving level. *Some say its not a good idea to add acid during
fermentation, I haven't tried it myself, but I doubt it can do much
harm if it is done gently...

You could if necessary try chemical acid reduction. *I did this for a
rhubarb wine and it worked very well. *It does require that you add
winemakers chalk (calcium carbonate?) to reduce the acid by a given
amount.

Anyway, I digress, I guess you asked about where you went wrong rather
than potential fixes, but I've had some of my plum wine and I figure
it can't hurt...

Good luck, Jim

Wow. * First off, kit wines are pre-balanced so the need to make a
drastic change like that is questionable. *Use your taste buds as a
tie breaker, always. *They are the best instrument you own.

Next, never add that much acid. *I think you acid test kit is bad, the
NAOH may be off. *You are literally measuring tartaric acid per given
quantity, it sounds like you added way too much.

That said, get the wine as cold as possible 28F is ideal. *That will
pull excess tartaric out

Please don't take this wrong, I'm not being critical. *All I'm saying
is the real art in winemaking is knowing when to say no, you seem to
have gotten too into getting the numbers right to stop and do a
reality check on them.

Don't give up, chill it.

Joe- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I'm at a stage in my winemaking art that I want and NEED critical
feedback. *It is very very *much appreciated.

BTW, *i started this batch with a *couple of cans of concentrate, not
a kit.
To me, a kit is the juice/concentrate, chemicals, instructions
etc..
I just started with a couple of cans of concentrate.

OR, are cans of concentrate referred to as Kit wines too?

What I am going to to is to induce MLF. then test it again with paper
chromatography, and a TA test.
Then cold stabilize.

If that does not work, i will add a base like Calcium Carbonate.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Couple of things: First, your calculations would be way easier if you
switched to metric - 5 US gallons is 19L and using g/L instead of .x
%, you have 3g/L and want to go to 7g/L, so just multiply 19 by 4 to
get the total amount. Also, not sure where the 4.1 factor came from?
TA is measured as tartaric acid, so what you add is what you get, i.e,
you should need 3.8 g tartaric for 1g/L (0.1%) increase in 1gal.

Second, you can't measure acid correctly on must from concentrate -
they warn about this in kit making so the same things should apply to
straight concentrate, probably even more. The concentration process
binds some acids with other components in the must, and the bond only
gets release during fermenation. So that's a big part of your problem.

Pp

On Mar 17, 12:48*pm, pp wrote:
On Mar 17, 7:06*am, Wayne Harris wrote:





On Mar 17, 5:33*am, Joe Sallustio wrote:

On Mar 16, 8:53 pm, jim c wrote:

On Mar 17, 12:08 am, Wayne Harris wrote:

In my continuing quest to kill this batch of wine, I have messed up
the acid balance.

Here is the story:
I have a 5 gallon batch of Cabernet Sauvignon (from concentrate) that
has finished primary.
Prior to inoculating, I measured the reconstituted juice and found
that the titrateable acid was very low, about .3%. *I wanted to raise
the acidity to between .6% and .7%.
In order to do this, I used the following formula:

4.1g Tartaric Acid/1 gallon = .1% rise

So in order to raise 5 gallons of wine to .65% (a .35% rise) I
calculated the following:

5(4.1g)/5(1) gallon=.1% rise
3.5(20.5g/5gal)=3.5(.1%) rise
71.75g/5gal=.35% rise

I added this acid to the juice and re-measured the TA. *It was up to .
4%
After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .4%
I added another 20g.

After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .45%
I added another 20g.

After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .45%
I then added *40g.

After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .7%
good

Now, almost 2 months later, I re-measured and the TA is .82
Crap
The taste is very tart. Go figure.

So, what is the best way to add acid? *Should I have waited longer
before adding more? *Does it take a while for the acid to fully
dissolve?

Where did I go wrong?

Hi Wayne, I am no expert, but I am pretty sure that the initial
addition of acid (72g) was correct to raise the acidity to 0.7% *After
adding it I would have stirred very well without splashing and been
happy with that. *If I was to wanted to double check, I would have
waited 12 hours or so after stirring and then given it another lesser
stir before measuring. *In my experience the apparent acid after a
decent stirring is always lesser immediately than it is after a few
hours or even a day.

I guess it was a mistake to fear that the acid 'hadnt worked' and add
more, especially so soon.

For future reference (just as an idea) the webpage athttp://web2.airmail.net/sgross/fermcalc/fermcalc_applet.htmlisan
excellent tool for quickly calculating/double checking additions of
acid and sugar (as well as other useful tools). *I don't carry the
maths in my head (I should remember the square at least) and use this
tool often to work out my wine details.

I also suspect - though I court corroboration for this or denial -
that it is a good idea to aim for a middling acid level (for the given
type of wine) the first time you make it. *Maybe adjust up and down
from there after tasting the finished wine. *Maybe just using the
information for the next batch. *That is my approach now in making
country wines. *Until recently I aimed for almost the maximum acids
for my wines as well as the maximum suggested tannin levels. *I am
starting to see that not every wine suits the acid levels I've used.
Though I have yet to regret my tannic addition...

I don't know if the wine heads here have any better suggestions, but
all I can think is that ideally you would buy a 6 gallon secondary
and add another gallon of juice to the must (adjusting sugar levels if
required). *Then gently adjusting the acid if required to a more
forgiving level. *Some say its not a good idea to add acid during
fermentation, I haven't tried it myself, but I doubt it can do much
harm if it is done gently...

You could if necessary try chemical acid reduction. *I did this for a
rhubarb wine and it worked very well. *It does require that you add
winemakers chalk (calcium carbonate?) to reduce the acid by a given
amount.

Anyway, I digress, I guess you asked about where you went wrong rather
than potential fixes, but I've had some of my plum wine and I figure
it can't hurt...

Good luck, Jim

Wow. * First off, kit wines are pre-balanced so the need to make a
drastic change like that is questionable. *Use your taste buds as a
tie breaker, always. *They are the best instrument you own.

Next, never add that much acid. *I think you acid test kit is bad, the
NAOH may be off. *You are literally measuring tartaric acid per given
quantity, it sounds like you added way too much.

That said, get the wine as cold as possible 28F is ideal. *That will
pull excess tartaric out

Please don't take this wrong, I'm not being critical. *All I'm saying
is the real art in winemaking is knowing when to say no, you seem to
have gotten too into getting the numbers right to stop and do a
reality check on them.

Don't give up, chill it.

Joe- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I'm at a stage in my winemaking art that I want and NEED critical
feedback. *It is very very *much appreciated.

BTW, *i started this batch with a *couple of cans of concentrate, not
a kit.
To me, a kit is the juice/concentrate, chemicals, instructions
etc..
I just started with a couple of cans of concentrate.

OR, are cans of concentrate referred to as Kit wines too?

What I am going to to is to induce MLF. then test it again with paper
chromatography, and a TA test.
Then cold stabilize.

If that does not work, i will add a base like Calcium Carbonate.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Couple of things: First, your calculations would be way easier if you
switched to metric - 5 US gallons is 19L and using g/L instead of .x
%, you have 3g/L and want to go to 7g/L, so just multiply 19 by 4 to
get the total amount. Also, not sure where the 4.1 factor came from?
TA is measured as tartaric acid, so what you add is what you get, i.e,
you should need 3.8 g tartaric for 1g/L (0.1%) increase in 1gal.

Second, you can't measure acid correctly on must from concentrate -
they warn about this in kit making so the same things should apply to
straight concentrate, probably even more. The concentration process
binds some acids with other components in the must, and the bond only
gets release during fermenation. So that's a big part of your problem.

Pp- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I got the 4.1 factor from Jack Keller
http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/acid.asp
"Most blends, however, are 40-40-20, and adding 3.9 grams of this
ratio blend will increase the acidity in a gallon of must
approximately 0.1%. This same increase can be achieved by adding to a
gallon of must 4.1 grams of tartaric acid or 3.7 grams of either malic
acid or citric acid."

On Mar 17, 12:48*pm, pp wrote:
On Mar 17, 7:06*am, Wayne Harris wrote:





On Mar 17, 5:33*am, Joe Sallustio wrote:

On Mar 16, 8:53 pm, jim c wrote:

On Mar 17, 12:08 am, Wayne Harris wrote:

In my continuing quest to kill this batch of wine, I have messed up
the acid balance.

Here is the story:
I have a 5 gallon batch of Cabernet Sauvignon (from concentrate) that
has finished primary.
Prior to inoculating, I measured the reconstituted juice and found
that the titrateable acid was very low, about .3%. *I wanted to raise
the acidity to between .6% and .7%.
In order to do this, I used the following formula:

4.1g Tartaric Acid/1 gallon = .1% rise

So in order to raise 5 gallons of wine to .65% (a .35% rise) I
calculated the following:

5(4.1g)/5(1) gallon=.1% rise
3.5(20.5g/5gal)=3.5(.1%) rise
71.75g/5gal=.35% rise

I added this acid to the juice and re-measured the TA. *It was up to .
4%
After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .4%
I added another 20g.

After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .45%
I added another 20g.

After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .45%
I then added *40g.

After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .7%
good

Now, almost 2 months later, I re-measured and the TA is .82
Crap
The taste is very tart. Go figure.

So, what is the best way to add acid? *Should I have waited longer
before adding more? *Does it take a while for the acid to fully
dissolve?

Where did I go wrong?

Hi Wayne, I am no expert, but I am pretty sure that the initial
addition of acid (72g) was correct to raise the acidity to 0.7% *After
adding it I would have stirred very well without splashing and been
happy with that. *If I was to wanted to double check, I would have
waited 12 hours or so after stirring and then given it another lesser
stir before measuring. *In my experience the apparent acid after a
decent stirring is always lesser immediately than it is after a few
hours or even a day.

I guess it was a mistake to fear that the acid 'hadnt worked' and add
more, especially so soon.

For future reference (just as an idea) the webpage athttp://web2.airmail.net/sgross/fermcalc/fermcalc_applet.htmlisan
excellent tool for quickly calculating/double checking additions of
acid and sugar (as well as other useful tools). *I don't carry the
maths in my head (I should remember the square at least) and use this
tool often to work out my wine details.

I also suspect - though I court corroboration for this or denial -
that it is a good idea to aim for a middling acid level (for the given
type of wine) the first time you make it. *Maybe adjust up and down
from there after tasting the finished wine. *Maybe just using the
information for the next batch. *That is my approach now in making
country wines. *Until recently I aimed for almost the maximum acids
for my wines as well as the maximum suggested tannin levels. *I am
starting to see that not every wine suits the acid levels I've used.
Though I have yet to regret my tannic addition...

I don't know if the wine heads here have any better suggestions, but
all I can think is that ideally you would buy a 6 gallon secondary
and add another gallon of juice to the must (adjusting sugar levels if
required). *Then gently adjusting the acid if required to a more
forgiving level. *Some say its not a good idea to add acid during
fermentation, I haven't tried it myself, but I doubt it can do much
harm if it is done gently...

You could if necessary try chemical acid reduction. *I did this for a
rhubarb wine and it worked very well. *It does require that you add
winemakers chalk (calcium carbonate?) to reduce the acid by a given
amount.

Anyway, I digress, I guess you asked about where you went wrong rather
than potential fixes, but I've had some of my plum wine and I figure
it can't hurt...

Good luck, Jim

Wow. * First off, kit wines are pre-balanced so the need to make a
drastic change like that is questionable. *Use your taste buds as a
tie breaker, always. *They are the best instrument you own.

Next, never add that much acid. *I think you acid test kit is bad, the
NAOH may be off. *You are literally measuring tartaric acid per given
quantity, it sounds like you added way too much.

That said, get the wine as cold as possible 28F is ideal. *That will
pull excess tartaric out

Please don't take this wrong, I'm not being critical. *All I'm saying
is the real art in winemaking is knowing when to say no, you seem to
have gotten too into getting the numbers right to stop and do a
reality check on them.

Don't give up, chill it.

Joe- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I'm at a stage in my winemaking art that I want and NEED critical
feedback. *It is very very *much appreciated.

BTW, *i started this batch with a *couple of cans of concentrate, not
a kit.
To me, a kit is the juice/concentrate, chemicals, instructions
etc..
I just started with a couple of cans of concentrate.

OR, are cans of concentrate referred to as Kit wines too?

What I am going to to is to induce MLF. then test it again with paper
chromatography, and a TA test.
Then cold stabilize.

If that does not work, i will add a base like Calcium Carbonate.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Couple of things: First, your calculations would be way easier if you
switched to metric - 5 US gallons is 19L and using g/L instead of .x
%, you have 3g/L and want to go to 7g/L, so just multiply 19 by 4 to
get the total amount. Also, not sure where the 4.1 factor came from?
TA is measured as tartaric acid, so what you add is what you get, i.e,
you should need 3.8 g tartaric for 1g/L (0.1%) increase in 1gal.

Second, you can't measure acid correctly on must from concentrate -
they warn about this in kit making so the same things should apply to
straight concentrate, probably even more. The concentration process
binds some acids with other components in the must, and the bond only
gets release during fermenation. So that's a big part of your problem.

Pp- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Agreed on both and Wayne, I did the same thing on my first wine from
cans; I just didn't add as much... Experience is a bitter
teacher...

Joe

On Mar 17, 1:30*pm, Wayne Harris wrote:
On Mar 17, 12:48*pm, pp wrote:





On Mar 17, 7:06*am, Wayne Harris wrote:

On Mar 17, 5:33*am, Joe Sallustio wrote:

On Mar 16, 8:53 pm, jim c wrote:

On Mar 17, 12:08 am, Wayne Harris wrote:

In my continuing quest to kill this batch of wine, I have messed up
the acid balance.

Here is the story:
I have a 5 gallon batch of Cabernet Sauvignon (from concentrate) that
has finished primary.
Prior to inoculating, I measured the reconstituted juice and found
that the titrateable acid was very low, about .3%. *I wanted to raise
the acidity to between .6% and .7%.
In order to do this, I used the following formula:

4.1g Tartaric Acid/1 gallon = .1% rise

So in order to raise 5 gallons of wine to .65% (a .35% rise) I
calculated the following:

5(4.1g)/5(1) gallon=.1% rise
3.5(20.5g/5gal)=3.5(.1%) rise
71.75g/5gal=.35% rise

I added this acid to the juice and re-measured the TA. *It was up to .
4%
After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .4%
I added another 20g.

After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .45%
I added another 20g.

After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .45%
I then added *40g.

After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .7%
good

Now, almost 2 months later, I re-measured and the TA is .82
Crap
The taste is very tart. Go figure.

So, what is the best way to add acid? *Should I have waited longer
before adding more? *Does it take a while for the acid to fully
dissolve?

Where did I go wrong?

Hi Wayne, I am no expert, but I am pretty sure that the initial
addition of acid (72g) was correct to raise the acidity to 0.7% *After
adding it I would have stirred very well without splashing and been
happy with that. *If I was to wanted to double check, I would have
waited 12 hours or so after stirring and then given it another lesser
stir before measuring. *In my experience the apparent acid after a
decent stirring is always lesser immediately than it is after a few
hours or even a day.

I guess it was a mistake to fear that the acid 'hadnt worked' and add
more, especially so soon.

For future reference (just as an idea) the webpage athttp://web2.airmail.net/sgross/fermcalc/fermcalc_applet.htmlisan
excellent tool for quickly calculating/double checking additions of
acid and sugar (as well as other useful tools). *I don't carry the
maths in my head (I should remember the square at least) and use this
tool often to work out my wine details.

I also suspect - though I court corroboration for this or denial -
that it is a good idea to aim for a middling acid level (for the given
type of wine) the first time you make it. *Maybe adjust up and down
from there after tasting the finished wine. *Maybe just using the
information for the next batch. *That is my approach now in making
country wines. *Until recently I aimed for almost the maximum acids
for my wines as well as the maximum suggested tannin levels. *I am
starting to see that not every wine suits the acid levels I've used.
Though I have yet to regret my tannic addition...

I don't know if the wine heads here have any better suggestions, but
all I can think is that ideally you would buy a 6 gallon secondary
and add another gallon of juice to the must (adjusting sugar levels if
required). *Then gently adjusting the acid if required to a more
forgiving level. *Some say its not a good idea to add acid during
fermentation, I haven't tried it myself, but I doubt it can do much
harm if it is done gently...

You could if necessary try chemical acid reduction. *I did this for a
rhubarb wine and it worked very well. *It does require that you add
winemakers chalk (calcium carbonate?) to reduce the acid by a given
amount.

Anyway, I digress, I guess you asked about where you went wrong rather
than potential fixes, but I've had some of my plum wine and I figure
it can't hurt...

Good luck, Jim

Wow. * First off, kit wines are pre-balanced so the need to make a
drastic change like that is questionable. *Use your taste buds as a
tie breaker, always. *They are the best instrument you own.

Next, never add that much acid. *I think you acid test kit is bad, the
NAOH may be off. *You are literally measuring tartaric acid per given
quantity, it sounds like you added way too much.

That said, get the wine as cold as possible 28F is ideal. *That will
pull excess tartaric out

Please don't take this wrong, I'm not being critical. *All I'm saying
is the real art in winemaking is knowing when to say no, you seem to
have gotten too into getting the numbers right to stop and do a
reality check on them.

Don't give up, chill it.

Joe- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I'm at a stage in my winemaking art that I want and NEED critical
feedback. *It is very very *much appreciated.

BTW, *i started this batch with a *couple of cans of concentrate, not
a kit.
To me, a kit is the juice/concentrate, chemicals, instructions
etc..
I just started with a couple of cans of concentrate.

OR, are cans of concentrate referred to as Kit wines too?

What I am going to to is to induce MLF. then test it again with paper
chromatography, and a TA test.
Then cold stabilize.

If that does not work, i will add a base like Calcium Carbonate.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Couple of things: First, your calculations would be way easier if you
switched to metric - 5 US gallons is 19L and using g/L instead of .x
%, you have 3g/L and want to go to 7g/L, so just multiply 19 by 4 to
get the total amount. Also, not sure where the 4.1 factor came from?
TA is measured as tartaric acid, so what you add is what you get, i.e,
you should need 3.8 g tartaric for 1g/L (0.1%) increase in 1gal.

Second, you can't measure acid correctly on must from concentrate -
they warn about this in kit making so the same things should apply to
straight concentrate, probably even more. The concentration process
binds some acids with other components in the must, and the bond only
gets release during fermenation. So that's a big part of your problem.

Pp- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I got the 4.1 factor from Jack Kellerhttp://winemaking.jackkeller.net/acid..asp
"Most blends, however, are 40-40-20, and adding 3.9 grams of this
ratio blend will increase the acidity in a gallon of must
approximately 0.1%. This same increase can be achieved by adding to a
gallon of must 4.1 grams of tartaric acid or 3.7 grams of either malic
acid or citric acid."- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Did you use acid blend or straight tartaric? If tartaric, chilling
will get rid of the excess.

If acid blend, I'm not sure MLF will help and I personally wouldn't
spend the money ofn a good culture for canned concentrate. It can
have an off taste depending on how it was made and how long it sat on
the shelf. More important, the malic acid in acid blend may not be
affected by MLF.

Yes, canned concentrate is still kit winemaking.

Tell us what was used and we can go from there, another method of acid
reduction that may help is the double salt method.

Joe

On Mar 17, 5:32*pm, Joe Sallustio wrote:
On Mar 17, 1:30*pm, Wayne Harris wrote:





On Mar 17, 12:48*pm, pp wrote:

On Mar 17, 7:06*am, Wayne Harris wrote:

On Mar 17, 5:33*am, Joe Sallustio wrote:

On Mar 16, 8:53 pm, jim c wrote:

On Mar 17, 12:08 am, Wayne Harris wrote:

In my continuing quest to kill this batch of wine, I have messed up
the acid balance.

Here is the story:
I have a 5 gallon batch of Cabernet Sauvignon (from concentrate) that
has finished primary.
Prior to inoculating, I measured the reconstituted juice and found
that the titrateable acid was very low, about .3%. *I wanted to raise
the acidity to between .6% and .7%.
In order to do this, I used the following formula:

4.1g Tartaric Acid/1 gallon = .1% rise

So in order to raise 5 gallons of wine to .65% (a .35% rise) I
calculated the following:

5(4.1g)/5(1) gallon=.1% rise
3.5(20.5g/5gal)=3.5(.1%) rise
71.75g/5gal=.35% rise

I added this acid to the juice and re-measured the TA. *It was up to .
4%
After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .4%
I added another 20g.

After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .45%
I added another 20g.

After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .45%
I then added *40g.

After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .7%
good

Now, almost 2 months later, I re-measured and the TA is .82
Crap
The taste is very tart. Go figure.

So, what is the best way to add acid? *Should I have waited longer
before adding more? *Does it take a while for the acid to fully
dissolve?

Where did I go wrong?

Hi Wayne, I am no expert, but I am pretty sure that the initial
addition of acid (72g) was correct to raise the acidity to 0.7% *After
adding it I would have stirred very well without splashing and been
happy with that. *If I was to wanted to double check, I would have
waited 12 hours or so after stirring and then given it another lesser
stir before measuring. *In my experience the apparent acid after a
decent stirring is always lesser immediately than it is after a few
hours or even a day.

I guess it was a mistake to fear that the acid 'hadnt worked' and add
more, especially so soon.

For future reference (just as an idea) the webpage athttp://web2..airmail.net/sgross/fermcalc/fermcalc_applet.htmlisan
excellent tool for quickly calculating/double checking additions of
acid and sugar (as well as other useful tools). *I don't carry the
maths in my head (I should remember the square at least) and use this
tool often to work out my wine details.

I also suspect - though I court corroboration for this or denial -
that it is a good idea to aim for a middling acid level (for the given
type of wine) the first time you make it. *Maybe adjust up and down
from there after tasting the finished wine. *Maybe just using the
information for the next batch. *That is my approach now in making
country wines. *Until recently I aimed for almost the maximum acids
for my wines as well as the maximum suggested tannin levels. *I am
starting to see that not every wine suits the acid levels I've used.
Though I have yet to regret my tannic addition...

I don't know if the wine heads here have any better suggestions, but
all I can think is that ideally you would buy a 6 gallon secondary
and add another gallon of juice to the must (adjusting sugar levels if
required). *Then gently adjusting the acid if required to a more
forgiving level. *Some say its not a good idea to add acid during
fermentation, I haven't tried it myself, but I doubt it can do much
harm if it is done gently...

You could if necessary try chemical acid reduction. *I did this for a
rhubarb wine and it worked very well. *It does require that you add
winemakers chalk (calcium carbonate?) to reduce the acid by a given
amount.

Anyway, I digress, I guess you asked about where you went wrong rather
than potential fixes, but I've had some of my plum wine and I figure
it can't hurt...

Good luck, Jim

Wow. * First off, kit wines are pre-balanced so the need to make a
drastic change like that is questionable. *Use your taste buds as a
tie breaker, always. *They are the best instrument you own.

Next, never add that much acid. *I think you acid test kit is bad, the
NAOH may be off. *You are literally measuring tartaric acid per given
quantity, it sounds like you added way too much.

That said, get the wine as cold as possible 28F is ideal. *That will
pull excess tartaric out

Please don't take this wrong, I'm not being critical. *All I'm saying
is the real art in winemaking is knowing when to say no, you seem to
have gotten too into getting the numbers right to stop and do a
reality check on them.

Don't give up, chill it.

Joe- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I'm at a stage in my winemaking art that I want and NEED critical
feedback. *It is very very *much appreciated.

BTW, *i started this batch with a *couple of cans of concentrate, not
a kit.
To me, a kit is the juice/concentrate, chemicals, instructions
etc..
I just started with a couple of cans of concentrate.

OR, are cans of concentrate referred to as Kit wines too?

What I am going to to is to induce MLF. then test it again with paper
chromatography, and a TA test.
Then cold stabilize.

If that does not work, i will add a base like Calcium Carbonate.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Couple of things: First, your calculations would be way easier if you
switched to metric - 5 US gallons is 19L and using g/L instead of .x
%, you have 3g/L and want to go to 7g/L, so just multiply 19 by 4 to
get the total amount. Also, not sure where the 4.1 factor came from?
TA is measured as tartaric acid, so what you add is what you get, i.e,
you should need 3.8 g tartaric for 1g/L (0.1%) increase in 1gal.

Second, you can't measure acid correctly on must from concentrate -
they warn about this in kit making so the same things should apply to
straight concentrate, probably even more. The concentration process
binds some acids with other components in the must, and the bond only
gets release during fermenation. So that's a big part of your problem.

Pp- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I got the 4.1 factor from Jack Kellerhttp://winemaking.jackkeller.net/acid.asp
"Most blends, however, are 40-40-20, and adding 3.9 grams of this
ratio blend will increase the acidity in a gallon of must
approximately 0.1%. This same increase can be achieved by adding to a
gallon of must 4.1 grams of tartaric acid or 3.7 grams of either malic
acid or citric acid."- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Did you use acid blend or straight tartaric? * If tartaric, chilling
will get rid of the excess.

If acid blend, I'm not sure MLF will help and I personally wouldn't
spend the money ofn a good culture for canned concentrate. *It can
have an off taste depending on how it was made and how long it sat on
the shelf. *More important, the malic acid in acid blend may not be
affected by MLF.

Yes, canned concentrate is still kit winemaking.

Tell us what was used and we can go from there, another method of acid
reduction that may help is the double salt method.

Joe- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I used straight tartaric acid.

Sunday. (3/16/08) I added the MLF culture to the wine.
I will check it with paper chromatography in week or so.
Should i see it doing anything? I see absolutly nothing going on.

Plan B: I will chill it.

Plan C: I will add a Calcium Carbonate.

On Mar 18, 8:26*am, Wayne Harris wrote:
On Mar 17, 5:32*pm, Joe Sallustio wrote:





On Mar 17, 1:30*pm, Wayne Harris wrote:

On Mar 17, 12:48*pm, pp wrote:

On Mar 17, 7:06*am, Wayne Harris wrote:

On Mar 17, 5:33*am, Joe Sallustio wrote:

On Mar 16, 8:53 pm, jim c wrote:

On Mar 17, 12:08 am, Wayne Harris wrote:

In my continuing quest to kill this batch of wine, I have messed up
the acid balance.

Here is the story:
I have a 5 gallon batch of Cabernet Sauvignon (from concentrate) that
has finished primary.
Prior to inoculating, I measured the reconstituted juice and found
that the titrateable acid was very low, about .3%. *I wanted to raise
the acidity to between .6% and .7%.
In order to do this, I used the following formula:

4.1g Tartaric Acid/1 gallon = .1% rise

So in order to raise 5 gallons of wine to .65% (a .35% rise) I
calculated the following:

5(4.1g)/5(1) gallon=.1% rise
3.5(20.5g/5gal)=3.5(.1%) rise
71.75g/5gal=.35% rise

I added this acid to the juice and re-measured the TA. *It was up to .
4%
After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .4%
I added another 20g.

After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .45%
I added another 20g.

After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .45%
I then added *40g.

After a 20 min wait, I re-measured and it was still .7%
good

Now, almost 2 months later, I re-measured and the TA is .82
Crap
The taste is very tart. Go figure.

So, what is the best way to add acid? *Should I have waited longer
before adding more? *Does it take a while for the acid to fully
dissolve?

Where did I go wrong?

Hi Wayne, I am no expert, but I am pretty sure that the initial
addition of acid (72g) was correct to raise the acidity to 0.7% *After
adding it I would have stirred very well without splashing and been
happy with that. *If I was to wanted to double check, I would have
waited 12 hours or so after stirring and then given it another lesser
stir before measuring. *In my experience the apparent acid after a
decent stirring is always lesser immediately than it is after a few
hours or even a day.

I guess it was a mistake to fear that the acid 'hadnt worked' and add
more, especially so soon.

For future reference (just as an idea) the webpage athttp://web2.airmail.net/sgross/fermcalc/fermcalc_applet.htmlisan
excellent tool for quickly calculating/double checking additions of
acid and sugar (as well as other useful tools). *I don't carry the
maths in my head (I should remember the square at least) and use this
tool often to work out my wine details.

I also suspect - though I court corroboration for this or denial -
that it is a good idea to aim for a middling acid level (for the given
type of wine) the first time you make it. *Maybe adjust up and down
from there after tasting the finished wine. *Maybe just using the
information for the next batch. *That is my approach now in making
country wines. *Until recently I aimed for almost the maximum acids
for my wines as well as the maximum suggested tannin levels. *I am
starting to see that not every wine suits the acid levels I've used.
Though I have yet to regret my tannic addition...

I don't know if the wine heads here have any better suggestions, but
all I can think is that ideally you would buy a 6 gallon secondary
and add another gallon of juice to the must (adjusting sugar levels if
required). *Then gently adjusting the acid if required to a more
forgiving level. *Some say its not a good idea to add acid during
fermentation, I haven't tried it myself, but I doubt it can do much
harm if it is done gently...

You could if necessary try chemical acid reduction. *I did this for a
rhubarb wine and it worked very well. *It does require that you add
winemakers chalk (calcium carbonate?) to reduce the acid by a given
amount.

Anyway, I digress, I guess you asked about where you went wrong rather
than potential fixes, but I've had some of my plum wine and I figure
it can't hurt...

Good luck, Jim

Wow. * First off, kit wines are pre-balanced so the need to make a
drastic change like that is questionable. *Use your taste buds as a
tie breaker, always. *They are the best instrument you own.

Next, never add that much acid. *I think you acid test kit is bad, the
NAOH may be off. *You are literally measuring tartaric acid per given
quantity, it sounds like you added way too much.

That said, get the wine as cold as possible 28F is ideal. *That will
pull excess tartaric out

Please don't take this wrong, I'm not being critical. *All I'm saying
is the real art in winemaking is knowing when to say no, you seem to
have gotten too into getting the numbers right to stop and do a
reality check on them.

Don't give up, chill it.

Joe- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I'm at a stage in my winemaking art that I want and NEED critical
feedback. *It is very very *much appreciated.

BTW, *i started this batch with a *couple of cans of concentrate, not
a kit.
To me, a kit is the juice/concentrate, chemicals, instructions
etc..
I just started with a couple of cans of concentrate.

OR, are cans of concentrate referred to as Kit wines too?

What I am going to to is to induce MLF. then test it again with paper
chromatography, and a TA test.
Then cold stabilize.

If that does not work, i will add a base like Calcium Carbonate.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Couple of things: First, your calculations would be way easier if you
switched to metric - 5 US gallons is 19L and using g/L instead of .x
%, you have 3g/L and want to go to 7g/L, so just multiply 19 by 4 to
get the total amount. Also, not sure where the 4.1 factor came from?
TA is measured as tartaric acid, so what you add is what you get, i.e,
you should need 3.8 g tartaric for 1g/L (0.1%) increase in 1gal.

Second, you can't measure acid correctly on must from concentrate -
they warn about this in kit making so the same things should apply to
straight concentrate, probably even more. The concentration process
binds some acids with other components in the must, and the bond only
gets release during fermenation. So that's a big part of your problem.

Pp- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I got the 4.1 factor from Jack Kellerhttp://winemaking.jackkeller.net/acid.asp
"Most blends, however, are 40-40-20, and adding 3.9 grams of this
ratio blend will increase the acidity in a gallon of must
approximately 0.1%. This same increase can be achieved by adding to a
gallon of must 4.1 grams of tartaric acid or 3.7 grams of either malic
acid or citric acid."- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Did you use acid blend or straight tartaric? * If tartaric, chilling
will get rid of the excess.

If acid blend, I'm not sure MLF will help and I personally wouldn't
spend the money ofn a good culture for canned concentrate. *It can
have an off taste depending on how it was made and how long it sat on
the shelf. *More important, the malic acid in acid blend may not be
affected by MLF.