Lum,

I smell diacetyl. It's quite strong by the time I start pressing. I
assumed that meant MLF was going. Am I correct to assume that or does
that smell come from some other process during primary??

TIA

Bob


"Wayne Harris" wrote in message

...
On Feb 25, 9:58 am, wrote:



Joe ,

I don't add MLF culture and I can smell the MLF starting about half
way thru the primary anyway. I would think adding MLF culture just
before pressing would be wasting alot if a non bayanus strain of yeast
that promotes MLF was used in the primary. I would use prisse de
mousse on a red if I wanted to wait until after the primary to start
MLF and also add MLF nutrients with the culture. JMO.

Bob

On Feb 24, 6:33 am, Joe Sallustio wrote:

On Feb 23, 8:23 am, Wayne Harris wrote:

On Feb 22, 11:54 pm, spud wrote:

Lum is much to modest:

http://www.geocities.com/lumeisenman/chapt13.html

Look for: ferment sugar

Take Care,
Steve
Oregon

On Thu, 21 Feb 2008 16:06:33 -0800, AxisOfBeagles

wrote:

This is the question that will likely generate some debate.

I used to innoculate soon after primary was underway, on the
presumption that the ml bacteria would get a better start while the
alcohol was lower. Then, some fellow winemakers who profess to
knowing
far more than I ever could suggested that I was risking some
undesirable volatile acidity by doing so (I am still uncertain of
the
biologic basis for this). So I now innoculate late in primary -
soon
before press. Not sure it really makes a difference, but done this
two
years in a row now with no problems, so planning on continuing thus
until better information convinces me otherwise.

How about you? When do you innoculate with ml bacteria?

On 2008-02-21 15:26:46 -0800, Wayne Harris
said:

When, relative to primary fermentation, do you innoculate for
MLF?
at start?
-or-
50% through?
75% through?
90% through?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Nice read, Thanks Steve.

In reading from thewww.morewine.comwebsiteaboutML cultures I
read this:

"Note: Malolactic bacteria added during the ferment will compete with
the yeast for nutrients and are atagonistic to yeast, sometimes
causing problems resulting in stuck or stalled fermentations. The best
time to add an ML culture is after racking off the gross lees.."

With so many variables and so many opinions involved in winemaking, I
am beginning to think it takes a pointy hat with moons and stars on it
to make good wine.

Ok, just to muddy the waters a bit, I rarely induce MLF because most
of my grapes are low acid to begin with. Proper sulfite levels can be
used to prevent spontaneous MLF. It really depends on your grapes,
if they are on the underripe side they will likely be high in TA,
lower in pH and great candidates for MLF. Mine are usually the
opposite. If you do this, I prefer later in the ferment too; the TA/
pH balance is closer to stable and you know where they ended up; the
sulfite level has dropped to the point MLF can take off too.

As to cultures, once ML bacteria are in your winery space it just
happens on it's own. I know that seems a little hard to believe, but
I keep things relatively clean and get spontaneous MLF often if my
sulfite levels dip. If the wine is a little high on TA I let it have
at it. I'm either bringing it in on the must or it's in my winery. I
never saw it before I bought a culture for some Chancellor so suspect
the latter.

Joe

Joe- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You either have a good nose, or MLF has a distinct odor. \

Can you describe the odor?

I think wines going through MLF often have a slight "sour cabbage" smell.

Bob,
Red wines that have gone through mlf usually contain 2 or 3 time as much
diacetyl as wines that have not gone through mlf. So, the yeast can produce
some diacetyl but mlf bacteria produce more. I find that buttery smell
difficult to detect during primary fermentation. You must have a good
smeller.
Good luck with your winemaking.
Lum
wrote in message
...
Lum,

I smell diacetyl. It's quite strong by the time I start pressing. I
assumed that meant MLF was going. Am I correct to assume that or does
that smell come from some other process during primary??

TIA

Bob


"Wayne Harris" wrote in message

...
On Feb 25, 9:58 am, wrote:



Joe ,

I don't add MLF culture and I can smell the MLF starting about half
way thru the primary anyway. I would think adding MLF culture just
before pressing would be wasting alot if a non bayanus strain of yeast
that promotes MLF was used in the primary. I would use prisse de
mousse on a red if I wanted to wait until after the primary to start
MLF and also add MLF nutrients with the culture. JMO.

Bob

On Feb 24, 6:33 am, Joe Sallustio wrote:

On Feb 23, 8:23 am, Wayne Harris wrote:

On Feb 22, 11:54 pm, spud wrote:

Lum is much to modest:

http://www.geocities.com/lumeisenman/chapt13.html

Look for: ferment sugar

Take Care,
Steve
Oregon

On Thu, 21 Feb 2008 16:06:33 -0800, AxisOfBeagles

wrote:

This is the question that will likely generate some debate.

I used to innoculate soon after primary was underway, on the
presumption that the ml bacteria would get a better start while
the
alcohol was lower. Then, some fellow winemakers who profess to
knowing
far more than I ever could suggested that I was risking some
undesirable volatile acidity by doing so (I am still uncertain
of
the
biologic basis for this). So I now innoculate late in primary -
soon
before press. Not sure it really makes a difference, but done
this
two
years in a row now with no problems, so planning on continuing
thus
until better information convinces me otherwise.

How about you? When do you innoculate with ml bacteria?

On 2008-02-21 15:26:46 -0800, Wayne Harris
said:

When, relative to primary fermentation, do you innoculate for
MLF?
at start?
-or-
50% through?
75% through?
90% through?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Nice read, Thanks Steve.

In reading from thewww.morewine.comwebsiteaboutML cultures I
read this:

"Note: Malolactic bacteria added during the ferment will compete
with
the yeast for nutrients and are atagonistic to yeast, sometimes
causing problems resulting in stuck or stalled fermentations. The
best
time to add an ML culture is after racking off the gross lees.."

With so many variables and so many opinions involved in winemaking,
I
am beginning to think it takes a pointy hat with moons and stars on
it
to make good wine.

Ok, just to muddy the waters a bit, I rarely induce MLF because most
of my grapes are low acid to begin with. Proper sulfite levels can be
used to prevent spontaneous MLF. It really depends on your grapes,
if they are on the underripe side they will likely be high in TA,
lower in pH and great candidates for MLF. Mine are usually the
opposite. If you do this, I prefer later in the ferment too; the TA/
pH balance is closer to stable and you know where they ended up; the
sulfite level has dropped to the point MLF can take off too.

As to cultures, once ML bacteria are in your winery space it just
happens on it's own. I know that seems a little hard to believe, but
I keep things relatively clean and get spontaneous MLF often if my
sulfite levels dip. If the wine is a little high on TA I let it have
at it. I'm either bringing it in on the must or it's in my winery. I
never saw it before I bought a culture for some Chancellor so suspect
the latter.

Joe

Joe- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You either have a good nose, or MLF has a distinct odor. \

Can you describe the odor?

I think wines going through MLF often have a slight "sour cabbage" smell.

The red wines I ferment are eastern reds. They have much more Malic
acid so I think the smell is stronger. I think if I remember
correctly, your from SD and those grapes probably have less malic
acid. The buttery smell has been pretty noticable about 1/2 - 3/4 way
thru primary. I also see that "sparkle" type of fermenting when
pressing which I associate with MLF. It's a different type of bubble
action. It's tough to discribe except that I know it's MLF still
going.

Bob

On Feb 26, 5:52*pm, "Lum Eisenman" wrote:
Bob,
Red wines that have gone through mlf usually contain 2 or 3 time as much
diacetyl as wines that have not gone through mlf. So, the yeast can produce
some diacetyl but mlf bacteria produce more. *I find that buttery smell
difficult to detect during primary fermentation. *You must have a good
smeller.
Good luck with your winemaking.
wrote in message

...

Lum,

I smell diacetyl. It's quite strong by the time I start pressing. I
assumed that meant MLF was going. Am I correct to assume that or does
that smell come from some other process during primary??

TIA

Bob

"Wayne Harris" wrote in message

....
On Feb 25, 9:58 am, wrote:

Joe ,

I don't add MLF culture and I can smell the MLF starting about half
way thru the primary anyway. I would think adding MLF culture just
before pressing would be wasting alot if a non bayanus strain of yeast
that promotes MLF was used in the primary. I would use prisse de
mousse on a red if I wanted to wait until after the primary to start
MLF and also add MLF nutrients with the culture. JMO.

Bob

On Feb 24, 6:33 am, Joe Sallustio wrote:

On Feb 23, 8:23 am, Wayne Harris wrote:

On Feb 22, 11:54 pm, spud wrote:

Lum is much to modest:

http://www.geocities.com/lumeisenman/chapt13.html

Look for: ferment sugar

Take Care,
Steve
Oregon

On Thu, 21 Feb 2008 16:06:33 -0800, AxisOfBeagles

wrote:

This is the question that will likely generate some debate.

I used to innoculate soon after primary was underway, on the
presumption that the ml bacteria would get a better start while
the
alcohol was lower. Then, some fellow winemakers who profess to
knowing
far more than I ever could suggested that I was risking some
undesirable volatile acidity by doing so (I am still uncertain
of
the
biologic basis for this). So I now innoculate late in primary -
soon
before press. Not sure it really makes a difference, but done
this
two
years in a row now with no problems, so planning on continuing
thus
until better information convinces me otherwise.

How about you? When do you innoculate with ml bacteria?

On 2008-02-21 15:26:46 -0800, Wayne Harris
said:

When, relative to primary fermentation, do you innoculate for
MLF?
at start?
-or-
50% through?
75% through?
90% through?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Nice read, Thanks Steve.

In reading from thewww.morewine.comwebsiteaboutMLcultures I
read this:

"Note: Malolactic bacteria added during the ferment will compete
with
the yeast for nutrients and are atagonistic to yeast, sometimes
causing problems resulting in stuck or stalled fermentations. The
best
time to add an ML culture is after racking off the gross lees.."

With so many variables and so many opinions involved in winemaking,
I
am beginning to think it takes a pointy hat with moons and stars on
it
to make good wine.

Ok, just to muddy the waters a bit, I rarely induce MLF because most
of my grapes are low acid to begin with. Proper sulfite levels can be
used to prevent spontaneous MLF. It really depends on your grapes,
if they are on the underripe side they will likely be high in TA,
lower in pH and great candidates for MLF. Mine are usually the
opposite. If you do this, I prefer later in the ferment too; the TA/
pH balance is closer to stable and you know where they ended up; the
sulfite level has dropped to the point MLF can take off too.

As to cultures, once ML bacteria are in your winery space it just
happens on it's own. I know that seems a little hard to believe, but
I keep things relatively clean and get spontaneous MLF often if my
sulfite levels dip. If the wine is a little high on TA I let it have
at it. I'm either bringing it in on the must or it's in my winery. I
never saw it before I bought a culture for some Chancellor so suspect
the latter.

Joe

Joe- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You either have a good nose, or MLF has a distinct odor. \

Can you describe the odor?

I think wines going through MLF often have a slight "sour cabbage" smell.

I think you are right Bob.
I am in San Diego and local red grapes often contain less than 2 grams per
litter of malic acid. So, mlf doesn't last very long or produce very much
diacetyl.
I know what you mean about mlf bubbles. They are different, but difficult
to describe.
Lum


wrote in message
...
The red wines I ferment are eastern reds. They have much more Malic
acid so I think the smell is stronger. I think if I remember
correctly, your from SD and those grapes probably have less malic
acid. The buttery smell has been pretty noticable about 1/2 - 3/4 way
thru primary. I also see that "sparkle" type of fermenting when
pressing which I associate with MLF. It's a different type of bubble
action. It's tough to discribe except that I know it's MLF still
going.

Bob

On Feb 26, 5:52 pm, "Lum Eisenman" wrote:
Bob,
Red wines that have gone through mlf usually contain 2 or 3 time as much
diacetyl as wines that have not gone through mlf. So, the yeast can
produce
some diacetyl but mlf bacteria produce more. I find that buttery smell
difficult to detect during primary fermentation. You must have a good
smeller.
Good luck with your winemaking.
wrote in message

...

Lum,

I smell diacetyl. It's quite strong by the time I start pressing. I
assumed that meant MLF was going. Am I correct to assume that or does
that smell come from some other process during primary??

TIA

Bob

"Wayne Harris" wrote in message

...
On Feb 25, 9:58 am, wrote:

Joe ,

I don't add MLF culture and I can smell the MLF starting about half
way thru the primary anyway. I would think adding MLF culture just
before pressing would be wasting alot if a non bayanus strain of
yeast
that promotes MLF was used in the primary. I would use prisse de
mousse on a red if I wanted to wait until after the primary to start
MLF and also add MLF nutrients with the culture. JMO.

Bob

On Feb 24, 6:33 am, Joe Sallustio wrote:

On Feb 23, 8:23 am, Wayne Harris wrote:

On Feb 22, 11:54 pm, spud wrote:

Lum is much to modest:

http://www.geocities.com/lumeisenman/chapt13.html

Look for: ferment sugar

Take Care,
Steve
Oregon

On Thu, 21 Feb 2008 16:06:33 -0800, AxisOfBeagles

wrote:

This is the question that will likely generate some debate.

I used to innoculate soon after primary was underway, on the
presumption that the ml bacteria would get a better start
while
the
alcohol was lower. Then, some fellow winemakers who profess to
knowing
far more than I ever could suggested that I was risking some
undesirable volatile acidity by doing so (I am still uncertain
of
the
biologic basis for this). So I now innoculate late in
primary -
soon
before press. Not sure it really makes a difference, but done
this
two
years in a row now with no problems, so planning on continuing
thus
until better information convinces me otherwise.

How about you? When do you innoculate with ml bacteria?

On 2008-02-21 15:26:46 -0800, Wayne Harris
said:

When, relative to primary fermentation, do you innoculate
for
MLF?
at start?
-or-
50% through?
75% through?
90% through?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Nice read, Thanks Steve.

In reading from thewww.morewine.comwebsiteaboutMLcultures I
read this:

"Note: Malolactic bacteria added during the ferment will compete
with
the yeast for nutrients and are atagonistic to yeast, sometimes
causing problems resulting in stuck or stalled fermentations. The
best
time to add an ML culture is after racking off the gross lees.."

With so many variables and so many opinions involved in
winemaking,
I
am beginning to think it takes a pointy hat with moons and stars
on
it
to make good wine.

Ok, just to muddy the waters a bit, I rarely induce MLF because
most
of my grapes are low acid to begin with. Proper sulfite levels can
be
used to prevent spontaneous MLF. It really depends on your grapes,
if they are on the underripe side they will likely be high in TA,
lower in pH and great candidates for MLF. Mine are usually the
opposite. If you do this, I prefer later in the ferment too; the
TA/
pH balance is closer to stable and you know where they ended up;
the
sulfite level has dropped to the point MLF can take off too.

As to cultures, once ML bacteria are in your winery space it just
happens on it's own. I know that seems a little hard to believe,
but
I keep things relatively clean and get spontaneous MLF often if my
sulfite levels dip. If the wine is a little high on TA I let it
have
at it. I'm either bringing it in on the must or it's in my winery.
I
never saw it before I bought a culture for some Chancellor so
suspect
the latter.

Joe

Joe- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You either have a good nose, or MLF has a distinct odor. \

Can you describe the odor?

I think wines going through MLF often have a slight "sour cabbage"
smell.