Being a Newbie, I have thousands of questions.

Right now my question is about measuring sugar.

I understand SG, how to use a Hydrometer, and how to calculate ABV.

I also understand the BRIX to SG relationships. Brix=261.3*(1 - 1/
sg),

But degrees Brix and SG seem to accomplish much the same tasks. They
both seem to be methods for measuring sugar in suspension in liquid.
And from this, you can calculate several things, and you can time
various winemaking steps.

As a new winemaker, my instinct says to learn to both methods of
measurement and both scales, but to be honest, i don't know why. While
a hydrometer reads SG and a refractometer reads degrees Brix, to me,
they are both indicators of the same thing.

So, what method should i use?

Wayne Harris wrote:
Being a Newbie, I have thousands of questions.

Right now my question is about measuring sugar.

I understand SG, how to use a Hydrometer, and how to calculate ABV.

I also understand the BRIX to SG relationships.
Brix=261.3*(1 - 1/sg),

....

So, what method should i use?

I don't know which method you should use. I do know
that I make Mead and need to know the Brix of various
ingredients so that I can estimate OG which I measure
with a hydrometer.

One day digital hydrometers will be available so
inexpensively that there will be a hydrometer on
every fermenter.

Dick

FWIW: I use a refractometer in the vineyard to get a reading of sugars.
At harvest, I use both a refractometer and a hydrometer and adjust both
for temperature. If there is much discrepancy I do it all over again
and try to figure out why. From then on, I use only the hydrometer.


On 2008-01-30 17:21:05 -0800, Wayne Harris said:

Being a Newbie, I have thousands of questions.

Right now my question is about measuring sugar.

I understand SG, how to use a Hydrometer, and how to calculate ABV.

I also understand the BRIX to SG relationships. Brix=261.3*(1 - 1/
sg),

But degrees Brix and SG seem to accomplish much the same tasks. They
both seem to be methods for measuring sugar in suspension in liquid.
And from this, you can calculate several things, and you can time
various winemaking steps.

As a new winemaker, my instinct says to learn to both methods of
measurement and both scales, but to be honest, i don't know why. While
a hydrometer reads SG and a refractometer reads degrees Brix, to me,
they are both indicators of the same thing.

So, what method should i use?

On Jan 30, 5:21*pm, Wayne Harris wrote:
Being a Newbie, *I have thousands of questions.

Right now my question is about measuring sugar.

I understand SG, how to use a Hydrometer, and how to calculate ABV.

I also understand the BRIX to SG relationships. *Brix=261.3*(1 - 1/
sg),

But degrees Brix and SG seem to accomplish much the same tasks. They
both seem to be methods for measuring sugar in suspension in liquid.
And from this, you can calculate several things, and you can time
various winemaking steps.

As a new winemaker, *my instinct says to learn to both methods of
measurement and both scales, but to be honest, i don't know why. While
a hydrometer reads SG and a refractometer reads degrees Brix, to me,
they are both indicators of the same thing.

So, what method should i use?

You can use any method you prefer. There are others apart from Brix
and SG, for example, Baume and Oechsle, but they all do pretty much
the same thing. Practically, you might have to translate from one
scale to another at times, but you can use an inexpensive triple scale
hydrometer for that.

One thing though - you can't use the Brix scale on a refractometer
directly to measure the progress of fermentation because alcohol
skewes the values. Use the hydrometer for that purpose.

Pp

On Jan 31, 5:54 pm, pp wrote:
On Jan 30, 5:21 pm, Wayne Harris wrote:



Being a Newbie, I have thousands of questions.

Right now my question is about measuring sugar.

I understand SG, how to use a Hydrometer, and how to calculate ABV.

I also understand the BRIX to SG relationships. Brix=261.3*(1 - 1/
sg),

But degrees Brix and SG seem to accomplish much the same tasks. They
both seem to be methods for measuring sugar in suspension in liquid.
And from this, you can calculate several things, and you can time
various winemaking steps.

As a new winemaker, my instinct says to learn to both methods of
measurement and both scales, but to be honest, i don't know why. While
a hydrometer reads SG and a refractometer reads degrees Brix, to me,
they are both indicators of the same thing.

So, what method should i use?

You can use any method you prefer. There are others apart from Brix
and SG, for example, Baume and Oechsle, but they all do pretty much
the same thing. Practically, you might have to translate from one
scale to another at times, but you can use an inexpensive triple scale
hydrometer for that.

One thing though - you can't use the Brix scale on a refractometer
directly to measure the progress of fermentation because alcohol
skewes the values. Use the hydrometer for that purpose.

Pp

Unless you are in the UK where triple scale hydrometers made after
1983 seem to feature a different version of PA to anyone elses heh
heh...

"Wayne Harris" wrote in message
...
Being a Newbie, I have thousands of questions.

Right now my question is about measuring sugar.

I understand SG, how to use a Hydrometer, and how to calculate ABV.

I also understand the BRIX to SG relationships. Brix=261.3*(1 - 1/
sg),

But degrees Brix and SG seem to accomplish much the same tasks. They
both seem to be methods for measuring sugar in suspension in liquid.
And from this, you can calculate several things, and you can time
various winemaking steps.

As a new winemaker, my instinct says to learn to both methods of
measurement and both scales, but to be honest, i don't know why. While
a hydrometer reads SG and a refractometer reads degrees Brix, to me,
they are both indicators of the same thing.

So, what method should i use?

Wayne

Hmmmm. First. Refractometers are the preferred tool of grape
growers and grape buyers when the_only_requirement is to
evaluate the sugar content of grapes. For everything else hydrometers
are used.

As to Brix vs SG, it's not a matter of one or the other but rather
a progression. SG is used to estimate sugars. This estimate of
sugar is then expressed using Brix as the unit of measure. Make
sense ?? Thereafter, _ALL_ calculations are based on this estimate
of sugar. Folks who work mostly with grapes usually prefer to do
their calculations using Brix as their unit of measure while others
often prefer to use SG. It's mostly a matter of choice.

Home winemakers and those who work with non grape wines
mostly prefer to work with mulit-scale hydrometers because most
of the calculations were done for us when they calibrated these
hydrometers. IOW - there is no need to calculate Brix because
there is already a Brix scale on the hydrometer. And there is no
need to calculate PA because there is already a scale for this on
the hydrometer. This makes it all very easy. And it makes it easy
to understand the relationships between these things by simply
cross referencing back and forth between the scales without
having to do all the calculations and then comparing the results.

HTMS

Frederick

"jim" wrote in message
...
On Jan 31, 5:54 pm, pp wrote:

Unless you are in the UK where triple scale hydrometers made after
1983 seem to feature a different version of PA to anyone elses heh
heh...

I think the only change was to the temp standard used for calibration.
I still have the older ones that used 60f as the standard. I think
most of the newer ones use 68f as the standard. The standard used
should be printed on the each hydrometer. Temp compensate and
you should end up with the same numbers.

On Jan 31, 11:18 pm, "frederick ploegman"
wrote:
"jim" wrote in message

...

On Jan 31, 5:54 pm, pp wrote:

Unless you are in the UK where triple scale hydrometers made after
1983 seem to feature a different version of PA to anyone elses heh
heh...

I think the only change was to the temp standard used for calibration.
I still have the older ones that used 60f as the standard. I think
most of the newer ones use 68f as the standard. The standard used
should be printed on the each hydrometer. Temp compensate and
you should end up with the same numbers.

That is a sensible deduction. However, the hydrometer one I inherited
from my father - which matched the scale commonly used in the US - was
calibrated to the same temperature as my current triple scale which
doesn't match any PA system anyone else seems to use

I am sure you are right in general though Frederick!

Jim

"jim" wrote in message
...
On Jan 31, 11:18 pm, "frederick ploegman"
wrote:
"jim" wrote in message

...

On Jan 31, 5:54 pm, pp wrote:

Unless you are in the UK where triple scale hydrometers made after
1983 seem to feature a different version of PA to anyone elses heh
heh...

I think the only change was to the temp standard used for calibration.
I still have the older ones that used 60f as the standard. I think
most of the newer ones use 68f as the standard. The standard used
should be printed on the each hydrometer. Temp compensate and
you should end up with the same numbers.

That is a sensible deduction. However, the hydrometer one I inherited
from my father - which matched the scale commonly used in the US - was
calibrated to the same temperature as my current triple scale which
doesn't match any PA system anyone else seems to use

I am sure you are right in general though Frederick!

Jim

Hmmmm...The ones I have also state that they are specifically
designed for use in beer and winemaking. Yours ??

On Feb 1, 9:05 am, "frederick ploegman" wrote:
"jim" wrote in message

...



On Jan 31, 11:18 pm, "frederick ploegman"
wrote:
"jim" wrote in message

...

On Jan 31, 5:54 pm, pp wrote:

Unless you are in the UK where triple scale hydrometers made after
1983 seem to feature a different version of PA to anyone elses heh
heh...

I think the only change was to the temp standard used for calibration.
I still have the older ones that used 60f as the standard. I think
most of the newer ones use 68f as the standard. The standard used
should be printed on the each hydrometer. Temp compensate and
you should end up with the same numbers.

That is a sensible deduction. However, the hydrometer one I inherited
from my father - which matched the scale commonly used in the US - was
calibrated to the same temperature as my current triple scale which
doesn't match any PA system anyone else seems to use

I am sure you are right in general though Frederick!

Jim

Hmmmm...The ones I have also state that they are specifically
designed for use in beer and winemaking. Yours ??

Yes they say "wine or beer" at the top of the hydrometer. Both were
made by Peter Stevenson Ltd (made in Scotland). Sadly I have broken
the one which used the same PA scale as the American system (and which
was made I think actually in 1976) The current model was copyrighted
in 1983 and is the same one I can still buy from my winemaking shop.
They were both made for beer and winemaking. Curious isn't it. I
once tested the PA scale of the two side by side and in some areas it
was wildly different. I think the differences are recorded somewhere
on the group though I can't find them at the moment.

Jim

On Feb 1, 12:40 pm, jim wrote:
On Feb 1, 9:05 am, "frederick ploegman" wrote:



"jim" wrote in message

...

On Jan 31, 11:18 pm, "frederick ploegman"
wrote:
"jim" wrote in message

...

On Jan 31, 5:54 pm, pp wrote:

Unless you are in the UK where triple scale hydrometers made after
1983 seem to feature a different version of PA to anyone elses heh
heh...

I think the only change was to the temp standard used for calibration.
I still have the older ones that used 60f as the standard. I think
most of the newer ones use 68f as the standard. The standard used
should be printed on the each hydrometer. Temp compensate and
you should end up with the same numbers.

That is a sensible deduction. However, the hydrometer one I inherited
from my father - which matched the scale commonly used in the US - was
calibrated to the same temperature as my current triple scale which
doesn't match any PA system anyone else seems to use

I am sure you are right in general though Frederick!

Jim

Hmmmm...The ones I have also state that they are specifically
designed for use in beer and winemaking. Yours ??

Yes they say "wine or beer" at the top of the hydrometer. Both were
made by Peter Stevenson Ltd (made in Scotland). Sadly I have broken
the one which used the same PA scale as the American system (and which
was made I think actually in 1976) The current model was copyrighted
in 1983 and is the same one I can still buy from my winemaking shop.
They were both made for beer and winemaking. Curious isn't it. I
once tested the PA scale of the two side by side and in some areas it
was wildly different. I think the differences are recorded somewhere
on the group though I can't find them at the moment.

Jim

Sorry for the poor composition but here are the markings at the high
end of my hydrometer: http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l9...r/montaged.jpg

They don't tally at all with any of the 5 PA sclaes on the chart from
brsquared.org

That's why I think it's weird...

Jim

On Feb 1, 8:11*am, jim wrote:
On Feb 1, 12:40 pm, jim wrote:

On Feb 1, 9:05 am, "frederick ploegman" wrote:

"jim" wrote in message

....

On Jan 31, 11:18 pm, "frederick ploegman"
wrote:
"jim" wrote in message

...

On Jan 31, 5:54 pm, pp wrote:

Unless you are in the UK where triple scale hydrometers made after
1983 seem to feature a different version of PA to anyone elses heh
heh...

I think the only change was to the temp standard used for calibration.
I still have the older ones that used 60f as the standard. *I think
most of the newer ones use 68f as the standard. *The standard used
should be printed on the each hydrometer. *Temp compensate and
you should end up with the same numbers.

That is a sensible deduction. However, the hydrometer one I inherited
from my father - which matched the scale commonly used in the US - was
calibrated to the same temperature as my current triple scale which
doesn't match any PA system anyone else seems to use

I am sure you are right in general though Frederick!

Jim

Hmmmm...The ones I have also state that they are specifically
designed for use in beer and winemaking. *Yours *??

Yes they say "wine or beer" at the top of the hydrometer. *Both were
made by Peter Stevenson Ltd (made in Scotland). *Sadly I have broken
the one which used the same PA scale as the American system (and which
was made I think actually in 1976) *The current model was copyrighted
in 1983 and is the same one I can still buy from my winemaking shop.
They were both made for beer and winemaking. *Curious isn't it. *I
once tested the PA scale of the two side by side and in some areas it
was wildly different. *I think the differences are recorded somewhere
on the group though I can't find them at the moment.

Jim

Sorry for the poor composition but here are the markings at the high
end of my hydrometer:http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l9...r/montaged.jpg

They don't tally at all with any of the 5 PA sclaes on the chart from
brsquared.org

That's why I think it's weird...

Jim

Well, I decided to buy a refracometer and learn to use both. I
figure it can only help.
Thanks for all your help.

"jim" wrote in message
...
On Feb 1, 12:40 pm, jim wrote:
On Feb 1, 9:05 am, "frederick ploegman" wrote:



"jim" wrote in message

...

On Jan 31, 11:18 pm, "frederick ploegman"
wrote:
"jim" wrote in message

...

On Jan 31, 5:54 pm, pp wrote:

Unless you are in the UK where triple scale hydrometers made after
1983 seem to feature a different version of PA to anyone elses heh
heh...

I think the only change was to the temp standard used for
calibration.
I still have the older ones that used 60f as the standard. I think
most of the newer ones use 68f as the standard. The standard used
should be printed on the each hydrometer. Temp compensate and
you should end up with the same numbers.

That is a sensible deduction. However, the hydrometer one I inherited
from my father - which matched the scale commonly used in the US -
was
calibrated to the same temperature as my current triple scale which
doesn't match any PA system anyone else seems to use

I am sure you are right in general though Frederick!

Jim

Hmmmm...The ones I have also state that they are specifically
designed for use in beer and winemaking. Yours ??

Yes they say "wine or beer" at the top of the hydrometer. Both were
made by Peter Stevenson Ltd (made in Scotland). Sadly I have broken
the one which used the same PA scale as the American system (and which
was made I think actually in 1976) The current model was copyrighted
in 1983 and is the same one I can still buy from my winemaking shop.
They were both made for beer and winemaking. Curious isn't it. I
once tested the PA scale of the two side by side and in some areas it
was wildly different. I think the differences are recorded somewhere
on the group though I can't find them at the moment.

Jim

Sorry for the poor composition but here are the markings at the high
end of my hydrometer:
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l9...r/montaged.jpg

They don't tally at all with any of the 5 PA sclaes on the chart from
brsquared.org

That's why I think it's weird...

Jim

Wellll.....It uses 20C (68f) for it's temp standard while mine uses
15.56C (60f), but IIRC (I sometimes don't) that is slightly less
than 1 SG to compensate (0.9 ??). I don't see any balling or brix
scale on that thing and wwithout it there is no way I can "back
engineer" what they may have done. Which pretty much leaves
me clueless at this point. Sorry.........Maybe the maker would
answer your questions........

Frederick

PS - One thing for sure. It's hard to discuss things unless everyone
sings from the same sheet of music. ;o)

Well take 5 winemaking books and compare the SG scales with the PA
they mention and they are all different.

I once wrote a web-log entry on it but unfortunately it is only in Dutch
and I am not going to translate it like I do nowadays on my web-log.

One author stated you needed 16 grams sugar for 1% alcohol and another
stated as high as 20 grams sugar for 1% alcohol.
So why would the scales on hydrometers be different ???

You should trust the reading and calculate yourself from that.

Luc Volders
www.wijnmaker.blogspot.com


Sorry for the poor composition but here are the markings at the high
end of my hydrometer:
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l9...r/montaged.jpg

They don't tally at all with any of the 5 PA sclaes on the chart from
brsquared.org

That's why I think it's weird...

Jim

--
www.wijmaker.web-log.nl

On Feb 1, 7:04 pm, Luc Volders wrote:
Well take 5 winemaking books and compare the SG scales with the PA
they mention and they are all different.

I once wrote a web-log entry on it but unfortunately it is only in Dutch
and I am not going to translate it like I do nowadays on my web-log.

One author stated you needed 16 grams sugar for 1% alcohol and another
stated as high as 20 grams sugar for 1% alcohol.
So why would the scales on hydrometers be different ???

You should trust the reading and calculate yourself from that.

Luc Volderswww.wijnmaker.blogspot.com



Sorry for the poor composition but here are the markings at the high
end of my hydrometer:
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l9...r/montaged.jpg

They don't tally at all with any of the 5 PA sclaes on the chart from
brsquared.org

That's why I think it's weird...

Jim

--www.wijmaker.web-log.nl

Sorry Frederick the photo is from one I took months ago, if I get the
chance I will take a panoramic of my current hydrometer. I kept the
insert from the older (and more contemporary triple scale I broke)
which sits in front of me on the wall as I type right now - they both
have PA, SG - the older one has sugar in oz per gallon and the newer
one has sugar in grams per litre.

Hi Luc, I work in SG and I trust my hydrometer just fine using that
scale... My point was really as Frederick summed up: "One thing for
sure. It's hard to discuss things unless everyone sings from the same
sheet of music." and since - as you agree - there are as many PA
interpretations as wine-experts its very hard to feel that you are on
the same page if you use equipment which is arbitarily calibrated.

Thanks for your reply!

Jim