"Lum" wrote in message
. net...

Jim,
Have you considered using Actistab to stabilize your sweet wines? More
info here http://www.newworldwinemaker.com/pro...tent.asp?id=28


Hi Lum

1. Their spec sheet gives no more info than their advertizing hype.
2. The ad hype contradicts itself as to whether it is or is not
effected by low pH.
3. What_is_clear is that this product can only be used to "shock"
a wine. It then rapidly breaks down leaving any unbottled
wine at risk of REinfection.
4. It says that Scotlabs is the sole distributor in the US, but I did
a search of that site and found no mention of it.

Think I would want to know a lot more about this one before I tried it.
HTH

Frederick

On Jan 12, 7:38 am, mail box wrote:

Interesting. I love Montrachet for its predictable behavior and clean
fermentation profile. And I've never had H2S in any batch, much less
one where I used Montrachet.

Well, it's supposed to be one of the most popular yeast strains, but I
tried it with two different batches and had H2S both times. I always
add yeast nutrient per the recipe. My kitchen smelled like rotten eggs
briefly. I racked early and I guess it blew off. The resulting wines
were ok.

Afterwards I read several descriptions of Montrachet which indicated
that H2S could be a problem. Maybe I'm in the minority.

Greg

"frederick ploegman" wrote in message
...

"Lum" wrote in message
. net...

Jim,
Have you considered using Actistab to stabilize your sweet wines? More
info here http://www.newworldwinemaker.com/pro...tent.asp?id=28


Hi Lum

1. Their spec sheet gives no more info than their advertizing hype.
2. The ad hype contradicts itself as to whether it is or is not
effected by low pH.
3. What_is_clear is that this product can only be used to "shock"
a wine. It then rapidly breaks down leaving any unbottled
wine at risk of REinfection.
4. It says that Scotlabs is the sole distributor in the US, but I did
a search of that site and found no mention of it.

Think I would want to know a lot more about this one before I tried it.
HTH

Frederick

Frederick,
I have used Actistab for several years and find it does the job. It does
breakdown in a few weeks so it must be used with care.
Lum

On 1/13/2008 5:23 PM, Lum wrote:
[thread snipped]

Jim,
Have you considered using Actistab to stabilize your sweet wines? More
info here http://www.newworldwinemaker.com/pro...tent.asp?id=28

Lum,

Have you used Actistab in your own home wine making?

I read the link you provided, and was a bit concerned at seeing the
following:

"Natamycin breaks down in juice and wine over a period of time. At 20°C
it takes 10 days for half of Actistab ® added to wine to break down."

For home wine makers who typically do not filter, any yeast which the
Natamycin did not kill before the half life of Natamycin reduced it to
levels which were ineffective could possibly restart fermentation. The
product page does not provide any guidance on how fast acting the
Natamycin might be.

I'd be interested to hear from any wine makers who have used this product.


Cheers,
Ken

On Jan 14, 1:08 pm, mail box wrote:
On 1/13/2008 5:23 PM, Lum wrote:
[thread snipped]

Jim,
Have you considered using Actistab to stabilize your sweet wines? More
info here http://www.newworldwinemaker.com/pro...tent.asp?id=28

Lum,

Have you used Actistab in your own home wine making?

I read the link you provided, and was a bit concerned at seeing the
following:

"Natamycin breaks down in juice and wine over a period of time. At 20°C
it takes 10 days for half of Actistab ® added to wine to break down."

For home wine makers who typically do not filter, any yeast which the
Natamycin did not kill before the half life of Natamycin reduced it to
levels which were ineffective could possibly restart fermentation. The
product page does not provide any guidance on how fast acting the
Natamycin might be.

I'd be interested to hear from any wine makers who have used this product.

Cheers,
Ken

I would assume as a layman that added it in the correct quantities it
would neutralise the yeast before breaking down. It sounds all the
better for doing this to me, providing that the bottle is well sealed
I would have thought that the contents would remain stable after this
point.

Jim

I would assume as a layman that added it in the correct quantities it
would neutralise the yeast before breaking down. *It sounds all the
better for doing this to me, providing that the bottle is well sealed
I would have thought that the contents would remain stable after this
point.


Either I am reading a different sheet or missing something others have
seen too. Why not use this and bottle as you suggest? Maybe my
process is different than others but I really don't want to use this
on juice, I can freeze that if I want to keep it.

This product kills the yeast and then breaks down into two
biologically safe compounds in around 20 days. What is not to love
about all of that? It seems like if used properly it's an excellent
solution; just bottle after use. It doesn't break down the wine, it
breaks down itself.

The only issues I saw were the possible contradiction on pH Frederick
mentioned (one line says Actistab is unaffected by pH; another says
it's half Natamycin and another says Natamycin is affected by low pH,
but does not define low) and home winemakers measuring anything in
mg. I have precision balances so am considering buying a bottle right
now.

It looks like the South Africans have been using this too; I think DSM
is a Belgian or French Company, I know their enzymes.

Maybe this is not approved for commercial use in table wine in the US
like Sodium Benzoate (that's why I never tried it, sorry for the slow
response on that part of this thread. I never saw it approved other
than for 'wine coolers'...)
Joe

Ben wrote:
jim wrote:
snip
Is sodium benzoate 'health risk free' and easy to get hold of? I
never saw this in my Wine makers store here in the UK but that sounds
like an awesome option. I don't know why but I presumed that was a
chemical you'd find it hard to find for domestic use.

Jim

No it is not risk free, it has been linked to problems in the UK and the
US with carbonated drinks, under certain conditions it can result in the
production of Benzine (highly carcinogenic),it reacts with ascorbic acid
(vitamin C) over time, so anything that is kept for any length of time
or at high temperature is lightly to pose a risk.
I personally would not use it at all.
Ben.

NB see:
http://www.beveragedaily.com/news/ng...ks-fda-benzene
for some more info.
Ben,

Thanks for your comment and the link. Here's the update on the FDA
study. It's been out since the summer.
http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/benzdata.html

I was and am aware of the possibility of Benzoate being degraded by
Ascorbic acid in the presence of copper or iron ions.

However, the amount of benzene produced in all but a few (high Ascorbic)
products is really quite small... only a few parts per Billion. It is
quite close to the average benzene levels in most cities. This also
compares to the OSHA safety standard for workplace air of 1 part per
_Million_, which is obviously a thousandfold higher. For that matter,
ordinary gasoline is about 1% benzene, roughly 10,000,000 times more,
and people use gas freely, breathing its fumes every time they fill the
car or mow the lawn. The known exposure to benzene from everyday sources
is far greater than any theoretical exposure from a few glasses of wine.

I ran some calculations on the possible exposure to benzene from my
wine. At 1 ppb,it's like a single drop of the stuff in 40,000 Liters of
wine. That's 180 standard 225 L barrels. Considering that I make about
75 Liters of sweet wine each year, I would have to drink it all myself
for the next 530 years to consume that much benzene. To get the
exposure that a cigarette smoker does, I'd have to drink all my wine for
the next 5,000 years. I don't think it's something even remotely worth
worrying about.

Bottom line? Sure, there's the possibility of a tiny amount of benzene
forming as a result of using Benzoate, but the risk associated with it
gets totally lost in the risks of everyday life. Considering what else
is in wine, this is quite insignificant, IMHO.

Thanks again for the input, but it I think needs to be kept in perspective.

Mike McGeough

Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.usenet.com

On Jan 14, 6:40*pm, Mike McGeough wrote:
Ben wrote:
jim wrote:
snip
Is sodium benzoate 'health risk free' and easy to get hold of? *I
never saw this in my Wine makers store here in the UK but that sounds
like an awesome option. *I don't know why but I presumed that was a
chemical you'd find it hard to find for domestic use.

Jim

No it is not risk free, it has been linked to problems in the UK and the
US with carbonated drinks, under certain conditions it can result in the
production of Benzine (highly carcinogenic),it reacts with ascorbic acid
(vitamin C) over time, so anything that is kept for any length of time
or at high temperature is lightly to pose a risk.
I personally would not use it at all.
Ben.

NB see:
http://www.beveragedaily.com/news/ng...ks-fda-benzene
for some more info.

Ben,

Thanks for your comment and the link. Here's the update on the FDA
study. It's been out since the summer.http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/benzdata.html

* I was and am aware of the possibility of Benzoate being degraded by
Ascorbic acid in the presence of copper or iron ions.

However, the amount of benzene produced in all but a few (high Ascorbic)
products is really quite small... only a few parts per Billion. It is
quite close to the average benzene levels in most cities. This also
compares to the OSHA safety standard for workplace air of 1 part per
_Million_, which is obviously a thousandfold higher. *For that matter,
ordinary gasoline is about 1% benzene, roughly 10,000,000 times more,
and people use gas freely, breathing its fumes every time they fill the
car or mow the lawn. The known exposure to benzene from everyday sources
is far greater than any theoretical exposure from a few glasses of wine.

I ran some calculations on the possible exposure to benzene from my
wine. At 1 ppb,it's like a single drop of the stuff in 40,000 Liters of
wine. That's 180 standard 225 L barrels. Considering that I make about
75 Liters of sweet wine each year, I would have to drink it all myself
for the next 530 years to consume that much benzene. *To get the
exposure that a cigarette smoker does, I'd have to drink all my wine for
the next 5,000 years. I don't think it's something even remotely worth
worrying about.

Bottom line? *Sure, there's the possibility of a tiny amount of benzene
forming as a result of using Benzoate, but the risk associated with it
gets totally lost in the risks of everyday life. Considering what else
is in wine, this is quite insignificant, IMHO.

Thanks again for the input, but it I think needs to be kept in perspective..

Mike McGeough

*Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
* * ** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
---------------------------------------------------------- * * * *
* * * * * * * *http://www.usenet.com- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Mike,
Thanks for the info, it's very useful.

I live in Pittsburgh within 30 miles of 2 coke plants built during the
40's so my exposure to benzene from them trumps my wine for sure if I
use benzoate. (I have done work at both of those plants. Pittsburgh
is not the smokey city anymore but if anyone tells you coke plants of
this type don't offgas they just don't know what they are talking
about. The process is just incredible. The people that do that work
do a fantastic job sealing them up but they are pushing a rope; these
things leak.)

It sounds like there are some good alternatives to sorbate, this has
been a very cool thread.

Joe

On Jan 13, 8:28*pm, "Lum" wrote:
"frederick ploegman" wrote in message

...







"Lum" wrote in message
.net...

Jim,
Have you considered using Actistab to stabilize your sweet wines? *More
info here *http://www.newworldwinemaker.com/pro...tent.asp?id=28

Hi Lum

1. *Their spec sheet gives no more info than their advertizing hype.
2. *The ad hype contradicts itself as to whether it is or is not
* * effected by low pH.
3. *What_is_clear is that this product can only be used to "shock"
* * *a wine. *It then rapidly breaks down leaving any unbottled
* * wine at risk of REinfection.
4. *It says that Scotlabs is the sole distributor in the US, but I did
* * a search of that site and found no mention of it.

Think I would want to know a lot more about this one before I tried it.
HTH

* * * *Frederick

Frederick,
I have used Actistab for several years and find it does the job. *It does
breakdown in a few weeks so it must be used with care.
Lum- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

This does look very interesting - where do you get yours, Lum? I did
some quick hunting online, but the product is hard to pin down in
North America - the DSM site doesn't list it and neither does theit US
dealer, Gusmer.

Thx,

Pp

"pp" wrote in message
...
On Jan 13, 8:28 pm, "Lum" wrote:
"frederick ploegman" wrote in message

...







"Lum" wrote in message
.net...

Jim,
Have you considered using Actistab to stabilize your sweet wines? More
info here http://www.newworldwinemaker.com/pro...tent.asp?id=28

Hi Lum

1. Their spec sheet gives no more info than their advertizing hype.
2. The ad hype contradicts itself as to whether it is or is not
effected by low pH.
3. What_is_clear is that this product can only be used to "shock"
a wine. It then rapidly breaks down leaving any unbottled
wine at risk of REinfection.
4. It says that Scotlabs is the sole distributor in the US, but I did
a search of that site and found no mention of it.

Think I would want to know a lot more about this one before I tried it.
HTH

Frederick

Frederick,
I have used Actistab for several years and find it does the job. It does
breakdown in a few weeks so it must be used with care.
Lum- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

This does look very interesting - where do you get yours, Lum? I did
some quick hunting online, but the product is hard to pin down in
North America - the DSM site doesn't list it and neither does theit US
dealer, Gusmer.

Thx,

Pp

Pp,
A friend in Australia sent me some Actistab a couple of years ago. TTB has
not approved Actistab. So, it may not be available in the US yet, but it is
readily available in Australia.
Lum

On Jan 12, 6:25*pm, Mike McGeough wrote:
Joe,

Have you tried sodium benzoate? I gave up on sorbate too, as I didn't
like the taste that was always detectable at necessary levels. The
benzoate is as close to tasteless at 250 ppm as makes no nevermind. I've
used it for a couple of years now on back sweetened whites with no
problems and rave reviews.

Mike McGeough

Joe Sallustio wrote:

Sorbate is evil. *It never seems to work out well for me. *I don't
want to back sweeten because I don't make the sweets for myself,
others like them. *I will come up with an alternative on way or
another that I can afford, I don't want to build a sterile filter for
10 gallons a year.

Joe

*Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
* * ** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
---------------------------------------------------------- * * * *
* * * * * * * *http://www.usenet.com

Mike,
Is that the level you use, 250 PPM? I assume this is like sorbate in
that the amount of residual sugar has no bearing on quantity if
benzoate used; is that correct?

Joe

On Jan 17, 4:00*am, Joe Sallustio wrote:
On Jan 12, 6:25*pm, Mike McGeough wrote:





Joe,

Have you tried sodium benzoate? I gave up on sorbate too, as I didn't
like the taste that was always detectable at necessary levels. The
benzoate is as close to tasteless at 250 ppm as makes no nevermind. I've
used it for a couple of years now on back sweetened whites with no
problems and rave reviews.

Mike McGeough

Joe Sallustio wrote:

Sorbate is evil. *It never seems to work out well for me. *I don't
want to back sweeten because I don't make the sweets for myself,
others like them. *I will come up with an alternative on way or
another that I can afford, I don't want to build a sterile filter for
10 gallons a year.

Joe

*Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
* * ** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
---------------------------------------------------------- * * * *
* * * * * * * *http://www.usenet.com

Mike,
Is that the level you use, 250 PPM? *I assume this is like sorbate in
that the amount of residual sugar has no bearing on quantity if
benzoate used; is that correct?

Joe- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The info on using benzoate is rather sparse because it's not an
"official" agent like sorbate is, but I'd guess it's exactly like
sorbate in terms of sugar. Also, based on what I'd found online, I
tried to use a lower level - around 60-70ppm, but that wasn't enough.
As with sorbate, adding more after, when the wine started fermenting
(slowly) again, wasn't very productive. I'd still like to go under
250ppm, so I might do some more testing this year, but this time I'd
start with at least 150ppm.

Pp

Joe Sallustio wrote:

Mike,
Is that the level you use, 250 PPM? I assume this is like sorbate in
that the amount of residual sugar has no bearing on quantity if
benzoate used; is that correct?

Joe

Joe,

It is. I did a lot of research in both the abstract Biological area and
in the practical area of the food industry, and came up with that number
in both. Some organisms are susceptible at lower levels, a rare few at
higher levels, but common yeasts & fungi & many bacteria are stopped by
levels in the 200-300 ppm range. A few commercial food applications are
considerably higher, but I could see no benefit in going higher for
winemakers. At the lower levels mentioned by Pp, the literature talks of
percentage effectiveness, but partial protection seemed pointless to me.

BTW Pp, even the 250ppm level isn't effective at stopping an active
ferment. I forgot to add the benzoate to a jug of my "sweet reserve"
juice 'til it was too late. When I did, it had no noticeable effect on
the yeast, which was probably 71-B. Refrigerated and settled, it did
stop and made a really nice sweet sparkler for immediate consumption.

Mike McGeough


Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.usenet.com

On Jan 17, 2:40*pm, Mike McGeough wrote:

BTW Pp, even the 250ppm level isn't effective at stopping an active
ferment. I forgot to add the benzoate to a jug of my "sweet reserve"
juice 'til it was too late. When I did, it had no noticeable effect on
the yeast, which was probably 71-B. *Refrigerated and settled, it did
stop and made a really nice sweet sparkler for immediate consumption.

Mike McGeough


Yeah, that was my case too, only on finished wine. My general
procedure for sweeter whites is to stop the ferment by putting the
carboys outside into cold, racking, sulphiting and fining and leaving
outside until the wine clears, then filtering and adding benzoate/
sorbate and bringing back inside to check for activity. With the
60-70ppm level that I used last year, the ferment got going again, so
I had to take the wine out again and add some more benzoate and
actually some sorbate as well in the end. After all the additions, I
ended up with a higher total level than if I started with the 250ppm
in the first place. A good lesson overall.

After Lum's comments though, I'm starting a hunt for Actistab, that
one sounds even better...

Pp

pp wrote:
..

After Lum's comments though, I'm starting a hunt for Actistab, that
one sounds even better...

Pp


You're right. The literature makes it sound effective & safe. If you
uncover a source, let me know; I'd like to try it. I'll look too.

--
Mike MTM, Cokesbury, NJ, USA

Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.usenet.com