spud wrote:

OTOH pointing a fellow to an endless wealth of
information is no small
aid IMO. In fact one could argued more helpful
than a quick one shot
answer. That might leave the helper feeling
good about their deed, but certainly the helpee
is nowhere as educated than if directed to the
wealth of info available to them.

In additon to Lum's book and Keller's site:
http://www.geocities.com/lumeisenman/
http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/

there's 2 amazing FAQ's one for wine making:

http://paranoia.lycaeum.org/alcohol/winemaking-faq

and one for grape growing:
http://vitfaq.vinic.com/gohome.html

And last but not leat the Advanced Seach feature
for Usenet:

http://groups.google.com/advanced_se...e=UTF-8&hl=en&

Here is the accumulated knowledge of rcw, with
detail knowledge and EXPERIENCE in the specific
and esoteric as well as detailed answers for
entry level and novice wine maker.

Frankly I think providing these resources to a
novice is much more valuable than the usual 'buy
a kit and follow directions' advice. Who's
really dismissing the noobie here?

Steve
Oregon

There is nothing to prevent both - A simple answer
to a question asked before plus links. I just
hate the "Read the FAQs" or Google It" answers
when a quick response with the answer and yes,
links to resources is much more polite, better
overall and does not take any more time than a
rude reply.






On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 09:17:26 -0500, "Paul E.
Lehmann" wrote:

frederick ploegman wrote:


It's the newbies that keep this group going.
All too often lately,
they are being told to "go get googled". Some
interpret this as the equivalent of "go get
F***** ", and they take their questions
to friendlier places. I, for one, would like
to see the use of
google as an answer be outlawed in this group
!!
(personal opinion of one grouchy old fart)

I AGREE 100%

One of the nice things about this news group is
that there are those of us out here will answer
questions - even though it has been asked many
times before. I hope we NEVER become like some
of the other newsgroups with answers like "Read
the FAQs" or "Google it". Sometimes the answer
to an old question can be such that it leads to
new understandings or brings up issues that a
plain "Search Google" does not reveal. For
those who find it irritating to see repeated
questions the answer is simple - just don't read
them or reply.

On Dec 31 2007, 3:30 pm, wrote:
I agree Steve but I don't think anyone is dismissing anyone else.
There are always several ways to skin a cat and dismissing one over
the other is where the danger is. I know exactly what both points of
view are trying to say. As long as "newbies" don't take a link as FU,
I'm sure we'll all be fine. That's what links are for. To save typing
it in again. If the "newbie" takes it as if I typed the whole thing
myself ( plagerizing it) then all will be fine.OTOH, if I type a short
answer and the newbie doesn't think I have time for him or he doesn't
interpret my short answer as FU then we'll be fine too. I'm more of
the type where I'd rather someone give me the whole enchillada and let
me peruse it at my own leisure. Then if I still have questions about
the details I won't feel shy about asking them.

Bob

On Dec 31, 1:18 pm, spud wrote:

OTOH pointing a fellow to an endless wealth of information is no small
aid IMO. In fact one could argued more helpful than a quick one shot
answer. That might leave the helper feeling good about their deed,
but certainly the helpee is nowhere as educated than if directed to
the wealth of info available to them.

In additon to Lum's book and Keller's site: http://www.geocities.com/lumeisenman...ackkeller.net/

there's 2 amazing FAQ's one for wine making:http://paranoia.lycaeum.org/alcohol/winemaking-faq

and one for grape growing:http://vitfaq.vinic.com/gohome.html

And last but not leat the Advanced Seach feature for Usenet:http://groups.google.com/advanced_se...e=UTF-8&hl=en&

Here is the accumulated knowledge of rcw, with detail knowledge and
EXPERIENCE in the specific and esoteric as well as detailed answers
for entry level and novice wine maker.

Frankly I think providing these resources to a novice is much more
valuable than the usual 'buy a kit and follow directions' advice.
Who's really dismissing the noobie here?

Steve
Oregon

On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 09:17:26 -0500, "Paul E. Lehmann"

wrote:
frederick ploegman wrote:

It's the newbies that keep this group going.
All too often lately,
they are being told to "go get googled". Some
interpret this as the equivalent of "go get
F***** ", and they take their questions
to friendlier places. I, for one, would like to
see the use of
google as an answer be outlawed in this group !!
(personal opinion of one grouchy old fart)

I AGREE 100%

One of the nice things about this news group is
that there are those of us out here will answer
questions - even though it has been asked many
times before. I hope we NEVER become like some
of the other newsgroups with answers like "Read
the FAQs" or "Google it". Sometimes the answer
to an old question can be such that it leads to
new understandings or brings up issues that a
plain "Search Google" does not reveal. For those
who find it irritating to see repeated questions
the answer is simple - just don't read them or
reply.

One of the links in this thread is to a site built by Ed Goist for
just this purpose. He always answered questions in depth and that FAQ
is basically an extension of several of those posts to RCW.

This group seems to be unique, maybe it has something to do with
winemakers in general. I really can't remember the last time I saw
flaming here, it's very civil. For the most part if something can be
taken a few ways people here tend to give one another the benefit of
the doubt.

I usually try to answer what I can here because others did the same
for me.

And no I don't care how many times someone asks how to get those pesky
labels off, I'll still suggest acetone every time. It's cheap and so
am I.... )

Joe

Wow Joe-

Two for two on the link requests here (just pinged you on another
thread).

Any links on those books?

Thanks,

Liam




On Dec 28 2007, 12:03 pm, Joe Sallustio wrote:
On Dec 27, 9:55 pm, jim wrote:



On Dec 27, 10:45 pm, wrote:

Exactly, People have learned how to do searches. I assume that is the
reason also. It's very rare a "new" question is posted and just as
rare that a "new" answer will be given.

Bob

On Dec 27, 5:41 pm, wrote:

On Dec 20, 4:46 am, Joe Sallustio wrote:

On Dec 19, 6:25 pm, Dick Heckman wrote:

It seems that there is much less activity here lately. Are folks moving
elsewhere?

dick

This is the original winemaking newsgroup, it's been around for close
to 15 years. To be honest, it's not only spawned a lot of other
groups but most questions have been asked and answered many times.
The groups was much more active years ago, but that is where a lot of
questions got answered. I might be willing to bet there are close to
a thousand posts on cleaning/ removing labels from bottles for
example. There really aren't that many ways to do that and I can
guarantee all of them have already been explored here.

I'm not saying it's outlived it's usefulness, just that there are
other groups out there now answering all these questions, again. So
'dilution' is occurring...

Joe

I agree with Joe.

You can search almost any wine making question within this group and
you will find pages of relative info. I search first and if I don't
find the info/help I need, then I will post a question. Why post if
the info you need has been discussed multiple times. I think some of
the folks that have been around this site for awhile probably get
tired of the same old questions all the time. That said, this is a
great group and a wealth of information and if you don't like to
search and would rather post questions, I bet you will still get some
discussion.

Happy Holidays!

Jesse

I kind of agree and kind of don't.

Many people use the news-reader portion of outlook express. Unless
their newsgroup provider has unlimited retention and was there before
the start of this wine-making group they wouldn't be able to find the
messages in their news-client. They might not realise (as I didn't
till the middle of this year) that they could search the entire (I
think) archive on Google. Also, different practices and materials and
equipment arises from time to time, so it is on occasion worth
revisiting.

I agree in general though - Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Oh yeah, you can get the original posts from when they started the
group in Usenet back in 1993 on Google's archives. I probably have at
least 50 books on wine and winemaking but probably learned more here
on this group. You can never beat first hand experience. Google is
amazing, you can read 100 year old winemaking books now if you want
to...

Joe

Hi Liam,
I just opened Google, click on books and entered "winemaking". All
kinds of old UC Davis books came back along with some French and
Italian books; complete texts. Lot's of partial texts too. A lot
came from the University of Michigan.

Joe

On 1/1/2008 6:47 PM, Joe Sallustio wrote:
[thread snipped]
One of the links in this thread is to a site built by Ed Goist for
just this purpose. He always answered questions in depth and that FAQ
is basically an extension of several of those posts to RCW.

This group seems to be unique, maybe it has something to do with
winemakers in general. I really can't remember the last time I saw
flaming here, it's very civil. For the most part if something can be
taken a few ways people here tend to give one another the benefit of
the doubt.

I usually try to answer what I can here because others did the same
for me.

And no I don't care how many times someone asks how to get those pesky
labels off, I'll still suggest acetone every time. It's cheap and so
am I.... )

Joe

Yes, this group and rec.crafts.meadmaking are very genial.

As for label removing, I think I can one-up your cheapness, Joe. I soak
the bottles in water. What labels come off after the soak makes for
wine making bottles. What labels do not come off makes for recycling
fodder. :-)

I did build up a nice collection before settling on this scheme, but I
never did use anything other than water and a tool like a scraper meant
for removing county tax and safety inspection stickers from car
windshields. Basically a razor blade set in a broad hand grip. Great
for removing labels.


Cheers,
Ken

Thanks Joe,

I later went ahead and googled up the books myself; later this month I
plan to post a request for book reviews / favorites /
recommendations.

As far as this discussion goes I'm one of those newbies that has only
recently gotten the bug. I did find most of the links posted in this
thread (Keller, Lum, winemakermag.com) on my own. This community is
great though; no two batches will ever be the same and there is no
replacement for experience.

Liam