I'm not worried about the derision. What worries me is advice given
without any examples to back it up. Statements like " I wouldn't do
that" without a reason why just doesn't cut it. Reasons like "That
doesn't sound too appetizing" is not very scientific.

Bob

On Oct 31, 10:16 am, jim wrote:
Sadly there seems to be a degree of derision on this thread as well as
the useful opinions and information. The information is useful, the
derision is not.

I am not sure myself as to whether all byproducts of bacterial
spoilage are neutralised when the alcohol levels rise high enough to
kill the infection. I couldn't find much online about it and I don't
know whether many of these byproducts are poisonous either.
Information and opinion given by long-term winemakers on this thread
is interesting though and does help to form a strategy as well as
opinion.

I'd be interesting to hear more on this subject. Perhaps the lack of
testimony from people quoting a negative experience shows that there
is rarely a problem with procedures suggested. Perhaps it just shows
that they haven't read this thread yet.

Jim (a newb)

On Oct 31, 2:28 pm, wrote:

You can never have enough info. If she makes a decision based on the
limited info presented here, I will guarantee it will be an ill-
informed decision.

Bob

On Oct 30, 11:56 am, "Paul E. Lehmann" wrote:

wrote:
If you want to drink bad smelling "wine", be my
guest. If you want to risk contaminating other
things in your winery, go ahead. I am not the
wine police I am merely making suggestions.

I'm making suggestions myself based on my
observations and experiences combined with info
given to me by a good winemaker. I'm not
suggesting drinking bad stuff, I'm suggesting a
method to fix it.

"Sick, yes, deadly - life threatening ill no.
Of
course, to the best of my knowledge, I have
never drunk a low alcohol beverage that had
green mold
growing on it. To each his own. Happy wine -
errr - beverage making "

I haven't even heard of anyone getting sick.
Like I said, I'm suggesting ways to fix it not
ways to drink it.

I think Cathy has enough information to make her
decision.

"On Oct 26, 11:54 am, "Paul E. Lehmann"
wrote:
wrote:
The two Paul's in this thread would make good
Republican Presidential
candidates.

I would have to change my party affiliation
before I did that

Instilling IRRATIONAL FEAR into
anyone who ever came across mold or a bad
smelling wine.

If you want to drink bad smelling "wine", be my
guest. If you want to risk contaminating other
things in your winery, go ahead. I am not the
wine police I am merely making suggestions.

On the contrary, there are no
known pathogens that exist in wine.

I don't believe the "cider" had enough sugar to
make "wine". The words we

.."temp was bad and we had green mold on top of
the cider (just apple juice let to ferment by
itself, no yeast or other additives)."

It's the
reason the Board of Health exempts wineries
from reqiurements of section 20C. Has anyone
on this board heard of anyone getting sick
from bad wine? Anyone?

Sick, yes, deadly - life threatening ill no.
Of course, to the best of my knowledge, I have
never drunk a low alcohol beverage that had
green mold
growing on it. To each his own. Happy wine -
errr - beverage making

Frederick mentioned the push down
of the cap. Both Pauls have pushed those
"toxins" down into the wine hundreds of times
and didn't even know it. Those toxins are
always there. Even SO2 doesn't kill them. SO2
puts them in suspended animation until the
SO2 levels drop. Bleach would kill them but
then there really would be "toxins" in the
wine. How many "toxins" have people drunk in
this world when the SO2 levels of the wine
they are drinking become low?? Just because
you can't see them doesn't mean they are not
there and it's ironic that the cap keeps
getting pushed into the fermenting must to
kill them. Maybe the fermentation does do
something. Imagine that.

Bob

On Oct 25, 8:57 pm, Paul Arthur
wrote:
On 2007-10-25, Cathy Boer
wrote:

After reading the comments about mold in
primary fermentation stage; we started 4
gallons of apple cider but the temp was
bad and we had green mold on top of the
cider (just apple juice let to ferment by
itself, no yeast or other additives).

We ended up throwing it down the drain,
but could we have saved the juice by
adding yeast???

Any comments/help would be appreciated.
We're new at all this stuff!

It depends on how advanced the mold is. If
you catch it fairly quickly and it's only on
top, you can rack the must out from under
the mold (leaving behind a couple of inches
to make sure you don't carry
the mold into the new fermenter) and pitch
yeast. If it's been growing for a while
toss it, as the mold produces toxins that
will have spread throughout the must and
cannot be easily removed.

--
I just forgot my whole philosophy of life!!!

wrote:

I'm not worried about the derision. What worries
me is advice given without any examples to back
it up. Statements like " I wouldn't do that"
without a reason why just doesn't cut it.
Reasons like "That doesn't sound too appetizing"
is not very scientific.

Bob

Bob,

The reason I especially like this newsgroup is
because there is no (or very little) flaming. If
you want to see what some other newsgroups have
become, just visit some of the political or
computer newsgroups.

If you want some (non scientific) backing from me
it would be (IMHO), that mold WILL produce SOME
byproducts that may not be desireable in the
final product. Examples would be Brett and VA
infections not to mention some possible more
serious ones depending on part of the percnet
alcohol, pH etc.

There are a LOT of different kinds of mold and I
am not an expert and I doubt that is your case.
I will leave this topic to the experts.

From what I have read, green mold is
characteristic of Penicillian. Maybe that is
what is being grown by the OP, maybe not.
Maybe it would produce no harm, maybe not.

I am not a biologist and I do not know what
percentage of alcohol would protect a must from
byproducts that would affect the product (wine or
cider) in an adverse manner taste or possible
heath issues. The advice I gave errors on the
side of caution.

It may very well be the case that the advice you
gave is acceptable (in this particular case) but
can you be sure that it will cause no harm in all
cases? I think this is the question that should
be asked.

The OP is NOT talking about a LARGE quantity of
cider (wine), at least not by my definition. If
in doubt AND if the OP were making a LARGE
quantity of wine or cider, then I think the very
best advice I could give would be to send a
sample to a lab. Most labs are reasonable -
especially if we are talking about large volumes
of product. If we are NOT talking about large
volumes then I think my advice still stands.

I am quite sure you will disagree based on YOUR
experience but like the old saying goes "Your
mileage may vary.

I hope we can all benefit from a dialog and get
along. That is my primary concern.

Paul




On Oct 31, 10:16 am, jim
wrote:
Sadly there seems to be a degree of derision on
this thread as well as
the useful opinions and information. The
information is useful, the derision is not.

I am not sure myself as to whether all
byproducts of bacterial spoilage are
neutralised when the alcohol levels rise high
enough to
kill the infection. I couldn't find much
online about it and I don't know whether many
of these byproducts are poisonous either.
Information and opinion given by long-term
winemakers on this thread is interesting though
and does help to form a strategy as well as
opinion.

I'd be interesting to hear more on this
subject. Perhaps the lack of testimony from
people quoting a negative experience shows that
there
is rarely a problem with procedures suggested.
Perhaps it just shows that they haven't read
this thread yet.

Jim (a newb)

On Oct 31, 2:28 pm, wrote:

You can never have enough info. If she makes
a decision based on the limited info
presented here, I will guarantee it will be
an ill- informed decision.

Bob

On Oct 30, 11:56 am, "Paul E. Lehmann"
wrote:

wrote:
If you want to drink bad smelling
"wine", be my
guest. If you want to risk
contaminating other
things in your winery, go ahead. I am
not the wine police I am merely making
suggestions.

I'm making suggestions myself based on my
observations and experiences combined
with info given to me by a good
winemaker. I'm not suggesting drinking
bad stuff, I'm suggesting a method to fix
it.

"Sick, yes, deadly - life threatening ill
no. Of
course, to the best of my knowledge, I
have never drunk a low alcohol beverage
that had green mold
growing on it. To each his own. Happy
wine - errr - beverage making "

I haven't even heard of anyone getting
sick. Like I said, I'm suggesting ways to
fix it not ways to drink it.

I think Cathy has enough information to
make her decision.

"On Oct 26, 11:54 am, "Paul E. Lehmann"
wrote:
wrote:
The two Paul's in this thread would
make good Republican Presidential
candidates.

I would have to change my party
affiliation before I did that

Instilling IRRATIONAL FEAR into
anyone who ever came across mold or a
bad smelling wine.

If you want to drink bad smelling
"wine", be my
guest. If you want to risk
contaminating other
things in your winery, go ahead. I am
not the wine police I am merely making
suggestions.

On the contrary, there are no
known pathogens that exist in wine.

I don't believe the "cider" had enough
sugar to
make "wine". The words we

.."temp was bad and we had green mold on
top of the cider (just apple juice let
to ferment by itself, no yeast or other
additives)."

It's the
reason the Board of Health exempts
wineries from reqiurements of section
20C. Has anyone on this board heard of
anyone getting sick from bad wine?
Anyone?

Sick, yes, deadly - life threatening ill
no. Of course, to the best of my
knowledge, I have never drunk a low
alcohol beverage that had green mold
growing on it. To each his own. Happy
wine - errr - beverage making

Frederick mentioned the push down
of the cap. Both Pauls have pushed
those "toxins" down into the wine
hundreds of times and didn't even know
it. Those toxins are always there.
Even SO2 doesn't kill them. SO2 puts
them in suspended animation until the
SO2 levels drop. Bleach would kill
them but then there really would be
"toxins" in the wine. How many
"toxins" have people drunk in this
world when the SO2 levels of the wine
they are drinking become low?? Just
because you can't see them doesn't
mean they are not there and it's
ironic that the cap keeps getting
pushed into the fermenting must to
kill them. Maybe the fermentation does
do something. Imagine that.

Bob

On Oct 25, 8:57 pm, Paul Arthur
wrote:
On 2007-10-25, Cathy Boer
wrote:

After reading the comments about
mold in primary fermentation stage;
we started 4 gallons of apple cider
but the temp was bad and we had
green mold on top of the cider
(just apple juice let to ferment by
itself, no yeast or other
additives).

We ended up throwing it down the
drain, but could we have saved the
juice by adding yeast???

Any comments/help would be
appreciated. We're new at all this
stuff!

It depends on how advanced the mold
is. If you catch it fairly quickly
and it's only on top, you can rack
the must out from under the mold
(leaving behind a couple of inches to
make sure you don't carry the mold
into the new fermenter) and pitch
yeast. If it's been growing for a
while toss it, as the mold produces
toxins that will have spread
throughout the must and cannot be
easily removed.

--
I just forgot my whole philosophy of
life!!!