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Winemaking (rec.crafts.winemaking) Discussion of the process, recipes, tips, techniques and general exchange of lore on the process, methods and history of wine making. Includes traditional grape wines, sparkling wines & champagnes.

Aging In Bulk Vs Aging In Bottle



 
 
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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 31-08-2007, 11:51 PM posted to rec.crafts.winemaking
jim
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 276
Default Aging In Bulk Vs Aging In Bottle

I live in the UK and current recommendation from the home winemaking
stores in the middle of England (including some commercial wineries I
know) is to ferment then use finings and bottle as soon after that as
possible. To back that up, glass carboys are fairly scarce compared
to plastic carboys and buckets. When I have asked why that is I have
been asked why I would want the wine to stay in glass to age rather
than in the bottle and told it is unnecessary and not 'particularly'
beneficial.

Now I tend to poo-poo this and go with the advice of this group, the
rest of the world (and CJJ Berry's sage old advice) to at least settle
the wine out naturally (if at all possible) before bottling and
maturing therein. I haven't enough personal experience to back this
up, it just seems logical to avoid fining unless absolutely necessary.

I know the UK isn't widely considered to be a world-class winemaking
region (though I gather we have, at least once, come first in a world
winemaking category). I can't help wondering:

# Why is the advice given here so different to that which (I gather)
is given everywhere else in the world?

# Why would people in the UK be fixating on a fast and less crafted
winemaking experience if that is the case? Perhaps the market for
home winemaking is declining here and new winemakers are only
attracted to make their own if it is very quick and easy?

# How much difference is there in the end product?

# Has anyone done side by side tests to determine the difference in
result between wines which have been fermented, fined and bottle aged
vs wines which have been gravity cleared, bulk aged and then bottled?

I would be interested to hear considered opinion or fact on this...
Best wishes to all of you at this most productive time of year!

Jim

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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 01-09-2007, 01:10 AM posted to rec.crafts.winemaking
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Posts: 88
Default Aging In Bulk Vs Aging In Bottle

I'll assume you're referring to red wines - as 'aging' per se is not
so much an issue with whites.

I can;t speak to kits, but for the wines I make from grape, I strongly
prefer bulk aging in oak, stainless, or glass carboys. This gives the
wine time to clear (if I can avoid fining reds, I will) and gives the
wine time to mature with less oxygen on the wine. It also allows for
any residual mlf to occur.

--
I'm using an evaluation license of nemo since 98 days.
You should really try it!
http://www.malcom-mac.com/nemo

  #3 (permalink)  
Old 01-09-2007, 01:45 AM posted to rec.crafts.winemaking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 127
Default Aging In Bulk Vs Aging In Bottle

I can only reply about kit wines, not raw recipes. I tried bulk aging
and the wine oxidized, and WinExperts reply to my problem - they don't
recommend bulk aging of their kits. so I don't anymore.

I also know there has been discussion about plastic versus glass (google
this site) and no conclusion I found satisfactory, so I use both.

I do have a Cherry port and a Blueberry port from recipes, that I plan
on bulk aging in 3 gallon glass carboys - I'll learn from that
experience, but it will take a year before I know. smile.

DAve

jim wrote:
I live in the UK and current recommendation from the home winemaking
stores in the middle of England (including some commercial wineries I
know) is to ferment then use finings and bottle as soon after that as
possible. To back that up, glass carboys are fairly scarce compared
to plastic carboys and buckets. When I have asked why that is I have
been asked why I would want the wine to stay in glass to age rather
than in the bottle and told it is unnecessary and not 'particularly'
beneficial.

Now I tend to poo-poo this and go with the advice of this group, the
rest of the world (and CJJ Berry's sage old advice) to at least settle
the wine out naturally (if at all possible) before bottling and
maturing therein. I haven't enough personal experience to back this
up, it just seems logical to avoid fining unless absolutely necessary.

I know the UK isn't widely considered to be a world-class winemaking
region (though I gather we have, at least once, come first in a world
winemaking category). I can't help wondering:

# Why is the advice given here so different to that which (I gather)
is given everywhere else in the world?

# Why would people in the UK be fixating on a fast and less crafted
winemaking experience if that is the case? Perhaps the market for
home winemaking is declining here and new winemakers are only
attracted to make their own if it is very quick and easy?

# How much difference is there in the end product?

# Has anyone done side by side tests to determine the difference in
result between wines which have been fermented, fined and bottle aged
vs wines which have been gravity cleared, bulk aged and then bottled?

I would be interested to hear considered opinion or fact on this...
Best wishes to all of you at this most productive time of year!

Jim

  #4 (permalink)  
Old 01-09-2007, 03:19 AM posted to rec.crafts.winemaking
jim
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 276
Default Aging In Bulk Vs Aging In Bottle

Thanks for the replies guys...

Me too Dave, though you have the jump on me...

I am trusting in plastic - though I have about 30 1 gallon dj and 1 5
gallon dj I am working with, most of my larger
scale is plastic - better bottle - so far untested as is still in
aging/clearing stage...

Jim

n Sep 1, 1:45 am, Dave Allison wrote:
I can only reply about kit wines, not raw recipes. I tried bulk aging
and the wine oxidized, and WinExperts reply to my problem - they don't
recommend bulk aging of their kits. so I don't anymore.

I also know there has been discussion about plastic versus glass (google
this site) and no conclusion I found satisfactory, so I use both.

I do have a Cherry port and a Blueberry port from recipes, that I plan
on bulk aging in 3 gallon glass carboys - I'll learn from that
experience, but it will take a year before I know. smile.

DAve

jim wrote:
I live in the UK and current recommendation from the home winemaking
stores in the middle of England (including some commercial wineries I
know) is to ferment then use finings and bottle as soon after that as
possible. To back that up, glass carboys are fairly scarce compared
to plastic carboys and buckets. When I have asked why that is I have
been asked why I would want the wine to stay in glass to age rather
than in the bottle and told it is unnecessary and not 'particularly'
beneficial.


Now I tend to poo-poo this and go with the advice of this group, the
rest of the world (and CJJ Berry's sage old advice) to at least settle
the wine out naturally (if at all possible) before bottling and
maturing therein. I haven't enough personal experience to back this
up, it just seems logical to avoid fining unless absolutely necessary.


I know the UK isn't widely considered to be a world-class winemaking
region (though I gather we have, at least once, come first in a world
winemaking category). I can't help wondering:


# Why is the advice given here so different to that which (I gather)
is given everywhere else in the world?


# Why would people in the UK be fixating on a fast and less crafted
winemaking experience if that is the case? Perhaps the market for
home winemaking is declining here and new winemakers are only
attracted to make their own if it is very quick and easy?


# How much difference is there in the end product?


# Has anyone done side by side tests to determine the difference in
result between wines which have been fermented, fined and bottle aged
vs wines which have been gravity cleared, bulk aged and then bottled?


I would be interested to hear considered opinion or fact on this...
Best wishes to all of you at this most productive time of year!


Jim





  #5 (permalink)  
Old 01-09-2007, 04:58 AM posted to rec.crafts.winemaking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 17
Default Aging In Bulk Vs Aging In Bottle

FWIW, you can find your answers by Googling the archives, but since I have
10 minutes, here goes...

Ageing in plastic cannot be recommended above ageing in glass due to the
density differences between the two. Basically, glass breaks easily because
it is a very dense structure whereas plastic less readily because it is a
less dense structure. Thus, glass is less impervious to infiltration as
compared to plastics. Many people can find many flaws in my allusion, but it
does break it down to straight-forward terms.

I also imagine you speak of wine kits, which is the first batch of wine I
made. What I found particularly disconcerting was the use of potassium
sorbate to inhibit the yeast. I found this ingredient readily identifiable
in my kit wine and wished I hadn't used it. When I thought all those
Christmas gifts had been dumped due to poor quality, my father produced his
bottle some 2+ years later and I must say it was a very nice kit wine. The
pot. sorbate was gone and it was a decent kit Cab. Sauv.I've since
recommended that my friends starting on kits skip the pot. sorbate and bulk
age for a period up to 6 months, believing that a juice would stabilize much
more readily than the relatively protein-saturated goo of fresh grapes.

In my opinion, the above paragraph throws doubt to the kit maker's claim (in
the US) that kit wines be drunk within 1 year. Read carefully the
instructions and total time to drinking in kits versus fresh grapes or juice
and notice the disparity. Think anyone writing the instructions has a
commercial interest in mind?

Age in bulk - there is less O2 exposure per given volume of wine versus that
in a bottle, assuming that corks "breathe". Let's PLEASE not have that
debate again, for the 187th time!



Patrick


"jim" wrote in message
ups.com...
I live in the UK and current recommendation from the home winemaking
stores in the middle of England (including some commercial wineries I
know) is to ferment then use finings and bottle as soon after that as
possible. To back that up, glass carboys are fairly scarce compared
to plastic carboys and buckets. When I have asked why that is I have
been asked why I would want the wine to stay in glass to age rather
than in the bottle and told it is unnecessary and not 'particularly'
beneficial.

Now I tend to poo-poo this and go with the advice of this group, the
rest of the world (and CJJ Berry's sage old advice) to at least settle
the wine out naturally (if at all possible) before bottling and
maturing therein. I haven't enough personal experience to back this
up, it just seems logical to avoid fining unless absolutely necessary.

I know the UK isn't widely considered to be a world-class winemaking
region (though I gather we have, at least once, come first in a world
winemaking category). I can't help wondering:

# Why is the advice given here so different to that which (I gather)
is given everywhere else in the world?

# Why would people in the UK be fixating on a fast and less crafted
winemaking experience if that is the case? Perhaps the market for
home winemaking is declining here and new winemakers are only
attracted to make their own if it is very quick and easy?

# How much difference is there in the end product?

# Has anyone done side by side tests to determine the difference in
result between wines which have been fermented, fined and bottle aged
vs wines which have been gravity cleared, bulk aged and then bottled?

I would be interested to hear considered opinion or fact on this...
Best wishes to all of you at this most productive time of year!

Jim



  #6 (permalink)  
Old 01-09-2007, 10:03 AM posted to rec.crafts.winemaking
jim
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 276
Default Aging In Bulk Vs Aging In Bottle

Hi Patrick, thanks for replying. I am satisfied the glass vs plastic
argument has been done to death. What I am talking about is the
seemingly huge disparity between what home winemakers (creating fruit
wines) are told to do by wineshops in the UK and elsewhere.

Shop owners here tell me not to bother with bulk aging but to let the
wine age and mature in bottle - avoid letting it settle out naturally,
but use finings to overcome the problems 'inherent' in plastic
containers by removing the need for longterm storage therein. This
doesn't have a financial root to me since the wines being made are not
from commercial kits, but from scratch.

One shop owner admitted to me that glass carboys were starting to
enjoy a bit of a renaissance in the UK as people followed Canadian
kitmakers instructions and went to secondary in glass rather than
plastic. This situation befuddled him as he couldn't see any reason
to go that route... My real question is why would this be I guess...

Jim

On Sep 1, 4:58 am, "patrick mcdonald"
wrote:
FWIW, you can find your answers by Googling the archives, but since I have
10 minutes, here goes...

Ageing in plastic cannot be recommended above ageing in glass due to the
density differences between the two. Basically, glass breaks easily because
it is a very dense structure whereas plastic less readily because it is a
less dense structure. Thus, glass is less impervious to infiltration as
compared to plastics. Many people can find many flaws in my allusion, but it
does break it down to straight-forward terms.

I also imagine you speak of wine kits, which is the first batch of wine I
made. What I found particularly disconcerting was the use of potassium
sorbate to inhibit the yeast. I found this ingredient readily identifiable
in my kit wine and wished I hadn't used it. When I thought all those
Christmas gifts had been dumped due to poor quality, my father produced his
bottle some 2+ years later and I must say it was a very nice kit wine. The
pot. sorbate was gone and it was a decent kit Cab. Sauv.I've since
recommended that my friends starting on kits skip the pot. sorbate and bulk
age for a period up to 6 months, believing that a juice would stabilize much
more readily than the relatively protein-saturated goo of fresh grapes.

In my opinion, the above paragraph throws doubt to the kit maker's claim (in
the US) that kit wines be drunk within 1 year. Read carefully the
instructions and total time to drinking in kits versus fresh grapes or juice
and notice the disparity. Think anyone writing the instructions has a
commercial interest in mind?

Age in bulk - there is less O2 exposure per given volume of wine versus that
in a bottle, assuming that corks "breathe". Let's PLEASE not have that
debate again, for the 187th time!

Patrick

"jim" wrote in message

ups.com...

I live in the UK and current recommendation from the home winemaking
stores in the middle of England (including some commercial wineries I
know) is to ferment then use finings and bottle as soon after that as
possible. To back that up, glass carboys are fairly scarce compared
to plastic carboys and buckets. When I have asked why that is I have
been asked why I would want the wine to stay in glass to age rather
than in the bottle and told it is unnecessary and not 'particularly'
beneficial.


Now I tend to poo-poo this and go with the advice of this group, the
rest of the world (and CJJ Berry's sage old advice) to at least settle
the wine out naturally (if at all possible) before bottling and
maturing therein. I haven't enough personal experience to back this
up, it just seems logical to avoid fining unless absolutely necessary.


I know the UK isn't widely considered to be a world-class winemaking
region (though I gather we have, at least once, come first in a world
winemaking category). I can't help wondering:


# Why is the advice given here so different to that which (I gather)
is given everywhere else in the world?


# Why would people in the UK be fixating on a fast and less crafted
winemaking experience if that is the case? Perhaps the market for
home winemaking is declining here and new winemakers are only
attracted to make their own if it is very quick and easy?


# How much difference is there in the end product?


# Has anyone done side by side tests to determine the difference in
result between wines which have been fermented, fined and bottle aged
vs wines which have been gravity cleared, bulk aged and then bottled?


I would be interested to hear considered opinion or fact on this...
Best wishes to all of you at this most productive time of year!


Jim



  #7 (permalink)  
Old 01-09-2007, 01:38 PM posted to rec.crafts.winemaking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 15
Default Aging In Bulk Vs Aging In Bottle

On Sep 1, 5:03 am, jim wrote:
Hi Patrick, thanks for replying. I am satisfied the glass vs plastic
argument has been done to death. What I am talking about is the
seemingly huge disparity between what home winemakers (creating fruit
wines) are told to do by wineshops in the UK and elsewhere.

Shop owners here tell me not to bother with bulk aging but to let the
wine age and mature in bottle - avoid letting it settle out naturally,
but use finings to overcome the problems 'inherent' in plastic
containers by removing the need for longterm storage therein. This
doesn't have a financial root to me since the wines being made are not
from commercial kits, but from scratch.

One shop owner admitted to me that glass carboys were starting to
enjoy a bit of a renaissance in the UK as people followed Canadian
kitmakers instructions and went to secondary in glass rather than
plastic. This situation befuddled him as he couldn't see any reason
to go that route... My real question is why would this be I guess...

Jim

On Sep 1, 4:58 am, "patrick mcdonald"

wrote:
FWIW, you can find your answers by Googling the archives, but since I have
10 minutes, here goes...


Ageing in plastic cannot be recommended above ageing in glass due to the
density differences between the two. Basically, glass breaks easily because
it is a very dense structure whereas plastic less readily because it is a
less dense structure. Thus, glass is less impervious to infiltration as
compared to plastics. Many people can find many flaws in my allusion, but it
does break it down to straight-forward terms.


I also imagine you speak of wine kits, which is the first batch of wine I
made. What I found particularly disconcerting was the use of potassium
sorbate to inhibit the yeast. I found this ingredient readily identifiable
in my kit wine and wished I hadn't used it. When I thought all those
Christmas gifts had been dumped due to poor quality, my father produced his
bottle some 2+ years later and I must say it was a very nice kit wine. The
pot. sorbate was gone and it was a decent kit Cab. Sauv.I've since
recommended that my friends starting on kits skip the pot. sorbate and bulk
age for a period up to 6 months, believing that a juice would stabilize much
more readily than the relatively protein-saturated goo of fresh grapes.


In my opinion, the above paragraph throws doubt to the kit maker's claim (in
the US) that kit wines be drunk within 1 year. Read carefully the
instructions and total time to drinking in kits versus fresh grapes or juice
and notice the disparity. Think anyone writing the instructions has a
commercial interest in mind?


Age in bulk - there is less O2 exposure per given volume of wine versus that
in a bottle, assuming that corks "breathe". Let's PLEASE not have that
debate again, for the 187th time!


Patrick


"jim" wrote in message


oups.com...


I live in the UK and current recommendation from the home winemaking
stores in the middle of England (including some commercial wineries I
know) is to ferment then use finings and bottle as soon after that as
possible. To back that up, glass carboys are fairly scarce compared
to plastic carboys and buckets. When I have asked why that is I have
been asked why I would want the wine to stay in glass to age rather
than in the bottle and told it is unnecessary and not 'particularly'
beneficial.


Now I tend to poo-poo this and go with the advice of this group, the
rest of the world (and CJJ Berry's sage old advice) to at least settle
the wine out naturally (if at all possible) before bottling and
maturing therein. I haven't enough personal experience to back this
up, it just seems logical to avoid fining unless absolutely necessary.


I know the UK isn't widely considered to be a world-class winemaking
region (though I gather we have, at least once, come first in a world
winemaking category). I can't help wondering:


# Why is the advice given here so different to that which (I gather)
is given everywhere else in the world?


# Why would people in the UK be fixating on a fast and less crafted
winemaking experience if that is the case? Perhaps the market for
home winemaking is declining here and new winemakers are only
attracted to make their own if it is very quick and easy?


# How much difference is there in the end product?


# Has anyone done side by side tests to determine the difference in
result between wines which have been fermented, fined and bottle aged
vs wines which have been gravity cleared, bulk aged and then bottled?


I would be interested to hear considered opinion or fact on this...
Best wishes to all of you at this most productive time of year!


Jim


One aspect in fining , especially with reds is dropping out a little
bit of color , etc. I've made a few kits , and unless it's a kit
that's supposed to finish with an appreciable amount of reidual
sugar , I chuck the sorbate....don't like the taste. Keep looking for
carboys (glass....doesn't breathe ) or demijohns..........they allow
you to bulk age with th only attention being given is checking your
traps every now and again.

  #8 (permalink)  
Old 01-09-2007, 03:02 PM posted to rec.crafts.winemaking
jim
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 276
Default Aging In Bulk Vs Aging In Bottle

Yeah I have over 30 glass demijohns and a combination of glass and
better bottle 5 gallon carboys.

I wonder why they aren't the recommended route in the UK? Thats the
way I am making wine...

Jim

On Sep 1, 1:38 pm, wrote:
On Sep 1, 5:03 am, jim wrote:



Hi Patrick, thanks for replying. I am satisfied the glass vs plastic
argument has been done to death. What I am talking about is the
seemingly huge disparity between what home winemakers (creating fruit
wines) are told to do by wineshops in the UK and elsewhere.


Shop owners here tell me not to bother with bulk aging but to let the
wine age and mature in bottle - avoid letting it settle out naturally,
but use finings to overcome the problems 'inherent' in plastic
containers by removing the need for longterm storage therein. This
doesn't have a financial root to me since the wines being made are not
from commercial kits, but from scratch.


One shop owner admitted to me that glass carboys were starting to
enjoy a bit of a renaissance in the UK as people followed Canadian
kitmakers instructions and went to secondary in glass rather than
plastic. This situation befuddled him as he couldn't see any reason
to go that route... My real question is why would this be I guess...


Jim


On Sep 1, 4:58 am, "patrick mcdonald"


wrote:
FWIW, you can find your answers by Googling the archives, but since I have
10 minutes, here goes...


Ageing in plastic cannot be recommended above ageing in glass due to the
density differences between the two. Basically, glass breaks easily because
it is a very dense structure whereas plastic less readily because it is a
less dense structure. Thus, glass is less impervious to infiltration as
compared to plastics. Many people can find many flaws in my allusion, but it
does break it down to straight-forward terms.


I also imagine you speak of wine kits, which is the first batch of wine I
made. What I found particularly disconcerting was the use of potassium
sorbate to inhibit the yeast. I found this ingredient readily identifiable
in my kit wine and wished I hadn't used it. When I thought all those
Christmas gifts had been dumped due to poor quality, my father produced his
bottle some 2+ years later and I must say it was a very nice kit wine. The
pot. sorbate was gone and it was a decent kit Cab. Sauv.I've since
recommended that my friends starting on kits skip the pot. sorbate and bulk
age for a period up to 6 months, believing that a juice would stabilize much
more readily than the relatively protein-saturated goo of fresh grapes.


In my opinion, the above paragraph throws doubt to the kit maker's claim (in
the US) that kit wines be drunk within 1 year. Read carefully the
instructions and total time to drinking in kits versus fresh grapes or juice
and notice the disparity. Think anyone writing the instructions has a
commercial interest in mind?


Age in bulk - there is less O2 exposure per given volume of wine versus that
in a bottle, assuming that corks "breathe". Let's PLEASE not have that
debate again, for the 187th time!


Patrick


"jim" wrote in message


oups.com...


I live in the UK and current recommendation from the home winemaking
stores in the middle of England (including some commercial wineries I
know) is to ferment then use finings and bottle as soon after that as
possible. To back that up, glass carboys are fairly scarce compared
to plastic carboys and buckets. When I have asked why that is I have
been asked why I would want the wine to stay in glass to age rather
than in the bottle and told it is unnecessary and not 'particularly'
beneficial.


Now I tend to poo-poo this and go with the advice of this group, the
rest of the world (and CJJ Berry's sage old advice) to at least settle
the wine out naturally (if at all possible) before bottling and
maturing therein. I haven't enough personal experience to back this
up, it just seems logical to avoid fining unless absolutely necessary.


I know the UK isn't widely considered to be a world-class winemaking
region (though I gather we have, at least once, come first in a world
winemaking category). I can't help wondering:


# Why is the advice given here so different to that which (I gather)
is given everywhere else in the world?


# Why would people in the UK be fixating on a fast and less crafted
winemaking experience if that is the case? Perhaps the market for
home winemaking is declining here and new winemakers are only
attracted to make their own if it is very quick and easy?


# How much difference is there in the end product?


# Has anyone done side by side tests to determine the difference in
result between wines which have been fermented, fined and bottle aged
vs wines which have been gravity cleared, bulk aged and then bottled?


I would be interested to hear considered opinion or fact on this...
Best wishes to all of you at this most productive time of year!


Jim


One aspect in fining , especially with reds is dropping out a little
bit of color , etc. I've made a few kits , and unless it's a kit
that's supposed to finish with an appreciable amount of reidual
sugar , I chuck the sorbate....don't like the taste. Keep looking for
carboys (glass....doesn't breathe ) or demijohns..........they allow
you to bulk age with th only attention being given is checking your
traps every now and again.



  #9 (permalink)  
Old 01-09-2007, 04:07 PM posted to rec.crafts.winemaking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 15
Default Aging In Bulk Vs Aging In Bottle

On Sep 1, 10:02 am, jim wrote:
Yeah I have over 30 glass demijohns and a combination of glass and
better bottle 5 gallon carboys.

I wonder why they aren't the recommended route in the UK? Thats the
way I am making wine...

Jim

On Sep 1, 1:38 pm, wrote:

On Sep 1, 5:03 am, jim wrote:


Hi Patrick, thanks for replying. I am satisfied the glass vs plastic
argument has been done to death. What I am talking about is the
seemingly huge disparity between what home winemakers (creating fruit
wines) are told to do by wineshops in the UK and elsewhere.


Shop owners here tell me not to bother with bulk aging but to let the
wine age and mature in bottle - avoid letting it settle out naturally,
but use finings to overcome the problems 'inherent' in plastic
containers by removing the need for longterm storage therein. This
doesn't have a financial root to me since the wines being made are not
from commercial kits, but from scratch.


One shop owner admitted to me that glass carboys were starting to
enjoy a bit of a renaissance in the UK as people followed Canadian
kitmakers instructions and went to secondary in glass rather than
plastic. This situation befuddled him as he couldn't see any reason
to go that route... My real question is why would this be I guess...


Jim


On Sep 1, 4:58 am, "patrick mcdonald"


wrote:
FWIW, you can find your answers by Googling the archives, but since I have
10 minutes, here goes...


Ageing in plastic cannot be recommended above ageing in glass due to the
density differences between the two. Basically, glass breaks easily because
it is a very dense structure whereas plastic less readily because it is a
less dense structure. Thus, glass is less impervious to infiltration as
compared to plastics. Many people can find many flaws in my allusion, but it
does break it down to straight-forward terms.


I also imagine you speak of wine kits, which is the first batch of wine I
made. What I found particularly disconcerting was the use of potassium
sorbate to inhibit the yeast. I found this ingredient readily identifiable
in my kit wine and wished I hadn't used it. When I thought all those
Christmas gifts had been dumped due to poor quality, my father produced his
bottle some 2+ years later and I must say it was a very nice kit wine. The
pot. sorbate was gone and it was a decent kit Cab. Sauv.I've since
recommended that my friends starting on kits skip the pot. sorbate and bulk
age for a period up to 6 months, believing that a juice would stabilize much
more readily than the relatively protein-saturated goo of fresh grapes.


In my opinion, the above paragraph throws doubt to the kit maker's claim (in
the US) that kit wines be drunk within 1 year. Read carefully the
instructions and total time to drinking in kits versus fresh grapes or juice
and notice the disparity. Think anyone writing the instructions has a
commercial interest in mind?


Age in bulk - there is less O2 exposure per given volume of wine versus that
in a bottle, assuming that corks "breathe". Let's PLEASE not have that
debate again, for the 187th time!


Patrick


"jim" wrote in message


oups.com...


I live in the UK and current recommendation from the home winemaking
stores in the middle of England (including some commercial wineries I
know) is to ferment then use finings and bottle as soon after that as
possible. To back that up, glass carboys are fairly scarce compared
to plastic carboys and buckets. When I have asked why that is I have
been asked why I would want the wine to stay in glass to age rather
than in the bottle and told it is unnecessary and not 'particularly'
beneficial.


Now I tend to poo-poo this and go with the advice of this group, the
rest of the world (and CJJ Berry's sage old advice) to at least settle
the wine out naturally (if at all possible) before bottling and
maturing therein. I haven't enough personal experience to back this
up, it just seems logical to avoid fining unless absolutely necessary.


I know the UK isn't widely considered to be a world-class winemaking
region (though I gather we have, at least once, come first in a world
winemaking category). I can't help wondering:


# Why is the advice given here so different to that which (I gather)
is given everywhere else in the world?


# Why would people in the UK be fixating on a fast and less crafted
winemaking experience if that is the case? Perhaps the market for
home winemaking is declining here and new winemakers are only
attracted to make their own if it is very quick and easy?


# How much difference is there in the end product?


# Has anyone done side by side tests to determine the difference in
result between wines which have been fermented, fined and bottle aged
vs wines which have been gravity cleared, bulk aged and then bottled?


I would be interested to hear considered opinion or fact on this...
Best wishes to all of you at this most productive time of year!


Jim


One aspect in fining , especially with reds is dropping out a little
bit of color , etc. I've made a few kits , and unless it's a kit
that's supposed to finish with an appreciable amount of reidual
sugar , I chuck the sorbate....don't like the taste. Keep looking for
carboys (glass....doesn't breathe ) or demijohns..........they allow
you to bulk age with th only attention being given is checking your
traps every now and again.


Don't know....for me , once it's in the bottle , it's fair game , and
sort of disappears a little bottle at a time. On the other hand ,
knowing that pulling the trap and thiefing a bottle out here and there
is risky , I'm pretty much forced to leave it alone. It's also pretty
hard to oak something that gets bottled up right after fermentation
is done , and there's always the chance of Ml ferm starting after its
bottled up and on the shelf......never pretty....it'll make you feel
like a bomb disposal technician trying to get the rest of your bottles
uncorked. I've found that the longer I can leave it sit in carboys ,
the better it is for me.

  #10 (permalink)  
Old 01-09-2007, 05:51 PM posted to rec.crafts.winemaking
jim
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 276
Default Aging In Bulk Vs Aging In Bottle

Sounds very sensible to me.

How could advice be given to fine as soon as possible after
fermentation and get it into the bottle? Very strange and makes less
and less sense to me. Its not the way CJJ Berry did it either and he
really is the popular grandad of winemakers in the UK!

Jim

On Sep 1, 4:07 pm, wrote:
On Sep 1, 10:02 am, jim wrote:



Yeah I have over 30 glass demijohns and a combination of glass and
better bottle 5 gallon carboys.


I wonder why they aren't the recommended route in the UK? Thats the
way I am making wine...


Jim


On Sep 1, 1:38 pm, wrote:


On Sep 1, 5:03 am, jim wrote:


Hi Patrick, thanks for replying. I am satisfied the glass vs plastic
argument has been done to death. What I am talking about is the
seemingly huge disparity between what home winemakers (creating fruit
wines) are told to do by wineshops in the UK and elsewhere.


Shop owners here tell me not to bother with bulk aging but to let the
wine age and mature in bottle - avoid letting it settle out naturally,
but use finings to overcome the problems 'inherent' in plastic
containers by removing the need for longterm storage therein. This
doesn't have a financial root to me since the wines being made are not
from commercial kits, but from scratch.


One shop owner admitted to me that glass carboys were starting to
enjoy a bit of a renaissance in the UK as people followed Canadian
kitmakers instructions and went to secondary in glass rather than
plastic. This situation befuddled him as he couldn't see any reason
to go that route... My real question is why would this be I guess...


Jim


On Sep 1, 4:58 am, "patrick mcdonald"


wrote:
FWIW, you can find your answers by Googling the archives, but since I have
10 minutes, here goes...


Ageing in plastic cannot be recommended above ageing in glass due to the
density differences between the two. Basically, glass breaks easily because
it is a very dense structure whereas plastic less readily because it is a
less dense structure. Thus, glass is less impervious to infiltration as
compared to plastics. Many people can find many flaws in my allusion, but it
does break it down to straight-forward terms.


I also imagine you speak of wine kits, which is the first batch of wine I
made. What I found particularly disconcerting was the use of potassium
sorbate to inhibit the yeast. I found this ingredient readily identifiable
in my kit wine and wished I hadn't used it. When I thought all those
Christmas gifts had been dumped due to poor quality, my father produced his
bottle some 2+ years later and I must say it was a very nice kit wine. The
pot. sorbate was gone and it was a decent kit Cab. Sauv.I've since
recommended that my friends starting on kits skip the pot. sorbate and bulk
age for a period up to 6 months, believing that a juice would stabilize much
more readily than the relatively protein-saturated goo of fresh grapes.


In my opinion, the above paragraph throws doubt to the kit maker's claim (in
the US) that kit wines be drunk within 1 year. Read carefully the
instructions and total time to drinking in kits versus fresh grapes or juice
and notice the disparity. Think anyone writing the instructions has a
commercial interest in mind?


Age in bulk - there is less O2 exposure per given volume of wine versus that
in a bottle, assuming that corks "breathe". Let's PLEASE not have that
debate again, for the 187th time!


Patrick


"jim" wrote in message


oups.com...


I live in the UK and current recommendation from the home winemaking
stores in the middle of England (including some commercial wineries I
know) is to ferment then use finings and bottle as soon after that as
possible. To back that up, glass carboys are fairly scarce compared
to plastic carboys and buckets. When I have asked why that is I have
been asked why I would want the wine to stay in glass to age rather
than in the bottle and told it is unnecessary and not 'particularly'
beneficial.


Now I tend to poo-poo this and go with the advice of this group, the
rest of the world (and CJJ Berry's sage old advice) to at least settle
the wine out naturally (if at all possible) before bottling and
maturing therein. I haven't enough personal experience to back this
up, it just seems logical to avoid fining unless absolutely necessary.


I know the UK isn't widely considered to be a world-class winemaking
region (though I gather we have, at least once, come first in a world
winemaking category). I can't help wondering:


# Why is the advice given here so different to that which (I gather)
is given everywhere else in the world?


# Why would people in the UK be fixating on a fast and less crafted
winemaking experience if that is the case? Perhaps the market for
home winemaking is declining here and new winemakers are only
attracted to make their own if it is very quick and easy?


# How much difference is there in the end product?


# Has anyone done side by side tests to determine the difference in
result between wines which have been fermented, fined and bottle aged
vs wines which have been gravity cleared, bulk aged and then bottled?


I would be interested to hear considered opinion or fact on this...
Best wishes to all of you at this most productive time of year!


Jim


One aspect in fining , especially with reds is dropping out a little
bit of color , etc. I've made a few kits , and unless it's a kit
that's supposed to finish with an appreciable amount of reidual
sugar , I chuck the sorbate....don't like the taste. Keep looking for
carboys (glass....doesn't breathe ) or demijohns..........they allow
you to bulk age with th only attention being given is checking your
traps every now and again.


Don't know....for me , once it's in the bottle , it's fair game , and
sort of disappears a little bottle at a time. On the other hand ,
knowing that pulling the trap and thiefing a bottle out here and there
is risky , I'm pretty much forced to leave it alone. It's also pretty
hard to oak something that gets bottled up right after fermentation
is done , and there's always the chance of Ml ferm starting after its
bottled up and on the shelf......never pretty....it'll make you feel
like a bomb disposal technician trying to get the rest of your bottles
uncorked. I've found that the longer I can leave it sit in carboys ,
the better it is for me.



  #11 (permalink)  
Old 02-09-2007, 05:34 AM posted to rec.crafts.winemaking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 129
Default Aging In Bulk Vs Aging In Bottle

On Sep 1, 8:07 am, wrote:
On Sep 1, 10:02 am, jim wrote:





Yeah I have over 30 glass demijohns and a combination of glass and
better bottle 5 gallon carboys.


I wonder why they aren't the recommended route in the UK? Thats the
way I am making wine...


Jim


On Sep 1, 1:38 pm, wrote:


On Sep 1, 5:03 am, jim wrote:


Hi Patrick, thanks for replying. I am satisfied the glass vs plastic
argument has been done to death. What I am talking about is the
seemingly huge disparity between what home winemakers (creating fruit
wines) are told to do by wineshops in the UK and elsewhere.


Shop owners here tell me not to bother with bulk aging but to let the
wine age and mature in bottle - avoid letting it settle out naturally,
but use finings to overcome the problems 'inherent' in plastic
containers by removing the need for longterm storage therein. This
doesn't have a financial root to me since the wines being made are not
from commercial kits, but from scratch.


One shop owner admitted to me that glass carboys were starting to
enjoy a bit of a renaissance in the UK as people followed Canadian
kitmakers instructions and went to secondary in glass rather than
plastic. This situation befuddled him as he couldn't see any reason
to go that route... My real question is why would this be I guess...


Jim


On Sep 1, 4:58 am, "patrick mcdonald"


wrote:
FWIW, you can find your answers by Googling the archives, but since I have
10 minutes, here goes...


Ageing in plastic cannot be recommended above ageing in glass due to the
density differences between the two. Basically, glass breaks easily because
it is a very dense structure whereas plastic less readily because it is a
less dense structure. Thus, glass is less impervious to infiltration as
compared to plastics. Many people can find many flaws in my allusion, but it
does break it down to straight-forward terms.


I also imagine you speak of wine kits, which is the first batch of wine I
made. What I found particularly disconcerting was the use of potassium
sorbate to inhibit the yeast. I found this ingredient readily identifiable
in my kit wine and wished I hadn't used it. When I thought all those
Christmas gifts had been dumped due to poor quality, my father produced his
bottle some 2+ years later and I must say it was a very nice kit wine. The
pot. sorbate was gone and it was a decent kit Cab. Sauv.I've since
recommended that my friends starting on kits skip the pot. sorbate and bulk
age for a period up to 6 months, believing that a juice would stabilize much
more readily than the relatively protein-saturated goo of fresh grapes.


In my opinion, the above paragraph throws doubt to the kit maker's claim (in
the US) that kit wines be drunk within 1 year. Read carefully the
instructions and total time to drinking in kits versus fresh grapes or juice
and notice the disparity. Think anyone writing the instructions has a
commercial interest in mind?


Age in bulk - there is less O2 exposure per given volume of wine versus that
in a bottle, assuming that corks "breathe". Let's PLEASE not have that
debate again, for the 187th time!


Patrick


"jim" wrote in message


oups.com...


I live in the UK and current recommendation from the home winemaking
stores in the middle of England (including some commercial wineries I
know) is to ferment then use finings and bottle as soon after that as
possible. To back that up, glass carboys are fairly scarce compared
to plastic carboys and buckets. When I have asked why that is I have
been asked why I would want the wine to stay in glass to age rather
than in the bottle and told it is unnecessary and not 'particularly'
beneficial.


Now I tend to poo-poo this and go with the advice of this group, the
rest of the world (and CJJ Berry's sage old advice) to at least settle
the wine out naturally (if at all possible) before bottling and
maturing therein. I haven't enough personal experience to back this
up, it just seems logical to avoid fining unless absolutely necessary.


I know the UK isn't widely considered to be a world-class winemaking
region (though I gather we have, at least once, come first in a world
winemaking category). I can't help wondering:


# Why is the advice given here so different to that which (I gather)
is given everywhere else in the world?


# Why would people in the UK be fixating on a fast and less crafted
winemaking experience if that is the case? Perhaps the market for
home winemaking is declining here and new winemakers are only
attracted to make their own if it is very quick and easy?


# How much difference is there in the end product?


# Has anyone done side by side tests to determine the difference in
result between wines which have been fermented, fined and bottle aged
vs wines which have been gravity cleared, bulk aged and then bottled?


I would be interested to hear considered opinion or fact on this...
Best wishes to all of you at this most productive time of year!


Jim


One aspect in fining , especially with reds is dropping out a little
bit of color , etc. I've made a few kits , and unless it's a kit
that's supposed to finish with an appreciable amount of reidual
sugar , I chuck the sorbate....don't like the taste. Keep looking for
carboys (glass....doesn't breathe ) or demijohns..........they allow
you to bulk age with th only attention being given is checking your
traps every now and again.


Don't know....for me , once it's in the bottle , it's fair game , and
sort of disappears a little bottle at a time. On the other hand ,
knowing that pulling the trap and thiefing a bottle out here and there
is risky , I'm pretty much forced to leave it alone. It's also pretty
hard to oak something that gets bottled up right after fermentation
is done , and there's always the chance of Ml ferm starting after its
bottled up and on the shelf......never pretty....it'll make you feel
like a bomb disposal technician trying to get the rest of your bottles
uncorked. I've found that the longer I can leave it sit in carboys ,
the better it is for me.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


.....possibly the best single reason to stay in the carboy...hadnt
thought of MLF.

  #12 (permalink)  
Old 04-09-2007, 08:50 PM posted to rec.crafts.winemaking
pp
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 308
Default Aging In Bulk Vs Aging In Bottle

On Sep 1, 9:51 am, jim wrote:
Sounds very sensible to me.

How could advice be given to fine as soon as possible after
fermentation and get it into the bottle? Very strange and makes less
and less sense to me. Its not the way CJJ Berry did it either and he
really is the popular grandad of winemakers in the UK!

Jim


It comes down to your basic assumptions, really - is making wine from
fresh ingredients essentially the same as making it from kits or is it
not? Clearly, there are significant differences - kits are balanced,
are not fermented with skins, etc. So given that, should they be
processed differently? - you'll get different answers from different
people. Personally, I'd tend to follow the fresh fruit winemaking
approach and I had good success with that on some kits. But I also
ended up with some kits that turned out pretty awful - is this the
kit's problem is it because a wrong method was applied to it...?

If you're new to this, I'd suggest going with the kit instructions
first to see how you like the result and only then starting to tweak
the parameters. Otherwise you're mostly just groping in the dark.

For context, there is a general consumer move towards fruitier,
younger, ready to drink wines so the suggestions in your winemaking
stores could also be influenced by that trend.

Pp

  #13 (permalink)  
Old 04-09-2007, 10:42 PM posted to rec.crafts.winemaking
jim
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 276
Default Aging In Bulk Vs Aging In Bottle

Thanks for your comments Pp. I must admit I am keen on fruity wines.
Most of the wines I have made so far have been from fresh fruit. I
have done some from kits, some from canned fruit and some from frozen
to. The advice given was for making fruit wines in general and in
particular.

I am too inexperienced to deviate far from kit instructions and my
palette is novice enough to not require it really. I beefed up a very
cheap kit because I wanted to add kick and watched the fermentation
time tripple and then some.

Thanks for the information and opinion though, its all very useful to
me.

Jim

On Sep 4, 8:50 pm, pp wrote:
On Sep 1, 9:51 am, jim wrote:

Sounds very sensible to me.


How could advice be given to fine as soon as possible after
fermentation and get it into the bottle? Very strange and makes less
and less sense to me. Its not the way CJJ Berry did it either and he
really is the popular grandad of winemakers in the UK!


Jim


It comes down to your basic assumptions, really - is making wine from
fresh ingredients essentially the same as making it from kits or is it
not? Clearly, there are significant differences - kits are balanced,
are not fermented with skins, etc. So given that, should they be
processed differently? - you'll get different answers from different
people. Personally, I'd tend to follow the fresh fruit winemaking
approach and I had good success with that on some kits. But I also
ended up with some kits that turned out pretty awful - is this the
kit's problem is it because a wrong method was applied to it...?

If you're new to this, I'd suggest going with the kit instructions
first to see how you like the result and only then starting to tweak
the parameters. Otherwise you're mostly just groping in the dark.

For context, there is a general consumer move towards fruitier,
younger, ready to drink wines so the suggestions in your winemaking
stores could also be influenced by that trend.

Pp



 




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