Winemaking (rec.crafts.winemaking) Discussion of the process, recipes, tips, techniques and general exchange of lore on the process, methods and history of wine making. Includes traditional grape wines, sparkling wines & champagnes.

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Default Elderberry secret: an easy harvesting method

The elderberries are just starting to ripen over here.
And I already picked about 4 kilo !!

Now you can make an excellent wine from elderberries (even a port-like wine)
but you have to take care of some things:

a) Elderberries HAVE TO BE COOKED as there is sambunigrin acid in them
which may be poisonous to some of us. By cooking the elderberries for 15
minutes the sambunigrin acid will decompose and the berries are perfectly
safe to sonsume (or make wine).

b) You have to separate the ripe berries from the unripe. Now you can do
that by hanpicking (a tedious work) as you will know the difference from
color: greens are unripe black and deep purple are ripe.

But the easiest way to seperate ripe from unripe berries I learned from an
old winemaker.

Pour a bottom of berries in a bucket and pour cold water over them. Now
stir well and the unripe berries will float atop. Ripe berries have a
higher sugar content and therefore will submerge. Unripe berries have a
lower sugar content and therefore a lower SG and will float.

For a photo session, floating berries and my recipes visit please my
web-log because it is to much to publish here.

http://wijnmaker.web-log.nl/

Luc Volders
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Default Elderberry secret: an easy harvesting method

Wow, didn't know about sambunigrin acid. I'm about 1/2 done with a
Elderberry port - and used dried elderberries. Did I need to boil them
as well? oops.

DAve

Luc Volders wrote:
> The elderberries are just starting to ripen over here.
> And I already picked about 4 kilo !!
>
> Now you can make an excellent wine from elderberries (even a port-like wine)
> but you have to take care of some things:
>
> a) Elderberries HAVE TO BE COOKED as there is sambunigrin acid in them
> which may be poisonous to some of us. By cooking the elderberries for 15
> minutes the sambunigrin acid will decompose and the berries are perfectly
> safe to sonsume (or make wine).
>
> b) You have to separate the ripe berries from the unripe. Now you can do
> that by hanpicking (a tedious work) as you will know the difference from
> color: greens are unripe black and deep purple are ripe.
>
> But the easiest way to seperate ripe from unripe berries I learned from an
> old winemaker.
>
> Pour a bottom of berries in a bucket and pour cold water over them. Now
> stir well and the unripe berries will float atop. Ripe berries have a
> higher sugar content and therefore will submerge. Unripe berries have a
> lower sugar content and therefore a lower SG and will float.
>
> For a photo session, floating berries and my recipes visit please my
> web-log because it is to much to publish here.
>
> http://wijnmaker.web-log.nl/
>
> Luc Volders

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Default Elderberry secret: an easy harvesting method

On Aug 5, 5:36 pm, Dave Allison > wrote:
> Wow, didn't know about sambunigrin acid. I'm about 1/2 done with a
> Elderberry port - and used dried elderberries. Did I need to boil them
> as well? oops.
>
> DAve



I'm just about ready to start 4 gallons of Elderberry wine from
concentrate, so this thread certainly caught my attention. I did a
little research online and it turns out that elderberries *are* *not*
*poisonous*. Some people are sensitive to sambunigrin, which in fact
is a cyanogenetic glycoside and not an acid. It occurs if far greater
quantities in the leaves than in the berries.

If you are not sensitive to sambunigrin, and you are not making your
wine from Elderberry leaves, then you shouldn't have anything to worry
about.

Of course, don't take my word for it. I'm not a chemist nor do I play
one on TV. Google for these terms and see what you can come up with.

Greg G.






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Default Elderberry secret: an easy harvesting method

Dave:

There are several poisonous plant databases administered by
universities, gov't angencies and Canadian sources available on the
net. You can do the research yourself for the species you've used.

Comments on the port? Would you recommend elderberry port?

Steve
Oregon






On Sun, 05 Aug 2007 20:36:41 -0400, Dave Allison
> wrote:

>Wow, didn't know about sambunigrin acid. I'm about 1/2 done with a
>Elderberry port - and used dried elderberries. Did I need to boil them
>as well? oops.
>
>DAve
>
>Luc Volders wrote:
>> The elderberries are just starting to ripen over here.
>> And I already picked about 4 kilo !!
>>
>> Now you can make an excellent wine from elderberries (even a port-like wine)
>> but you have to take care of some things:
>>
>> a) Elderberries HAVE TO BE COOKED as there is sambunigrin acid in them
>> which may be poisonous to some of us. By cooking the elderberries for 15
>> minutes the sambunigrin acid will decompose and the berries are perfectly
>> safe to sonsume (or make wine).
>>
>> b) You have to separate the ripe berries from the unripe. Now you can do
>> that by hanpicking (a tedious work) as you will know the difference from
>> color: greens are unripe black and deep purple are ripe.
>>
>> But the easiest way to seperate ripe from unripe berries I learned from an
>> old winemaker.
>>
>> Pour a bottom of berries in a bucket and pour cold water over them. Now
>> stir well and the unripe berries will float atop. Ripe berries have a
>> higher sugar content and therefore will submerge. Unripe berries have a
>> lower sugar content and therefore a lower SG and will float.
>>
>> For a photo session, floating berries and my recipes visit please my
>> web-log because it is to much to publish here.
>>
>> http://wijnmaker.web-log.nl/
>>
>> Luc Volders


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Default Elderberry secret: an easy harvesting method

Maybe there is a difference in the European and US varieties but I
did some checking myself and this is what I found on wikipedia
for example (just serch wikipedia for sambucus):

Uses
Both flowers and berries can be made into elderberry wine, and in Hungary
an elderberry brandy is produced (requiring 50 kg of fruit to produce 1
litre of brandy). The alcoholic drink sambuca is made by infusing
elderberries and anise into alcohol. The berries are best not eaten raw as
they are mildly poisonous, causing vomiting (particularly if eaten
unripe). The mild cyanide toxicity is destroyed by cooking. The berries
can also be made into jam, pies or Pontack sauce. All green parts of the
plant are poisonous, containing cyanogenic glycosides (Vedel & Lange 1960).

Now wikipedia is not the only source.
Search with google for elderberry and poison

And of course there might be only a low quantity of sambunigrin in the
berries, and you might not be sensitive or have an issue with it, but you
might present a glass to someone who is sensitive. Better safe as sorry.

I love elderberry wine. I make as much as possible each year, and it is my
favorite wine but I always cook them and will not take any chance how
small it might be with health issues. Cooking is such a small effort and
reduces all risks. So what's the problem anyhow.

Luc

>
> I'm just about ready to start 4 gallons of Elderberry wine from
> concentrate, so this thread certainly caught my attention. I did a
> little research online and it turns out that elderberries *are* *not*
> *poisonous*. Some people are sensitive to sambunigrin, which in fact
> is a cyanogenetic glycoside and not an acid. It occurs if far greater
> quantities in the leaves than in the berries.
>
> If you are not sensitive to sambunigrin, and you are not making your
> wine from Elderberry leaves, then you shouldn't have anything to worry
> about.
>
> Of course, don't take my word for it. I'm not a chemist nor do I play
> one on TV. Google for these terms and see what you can come up with.
>
> Greg G.




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Default Elderberry secret: an easy harvesting method

Thanks, I've found several sites from looking. This helps, though none
mention specifically dried elderberries, i guess it would apply.

Yes, my goodness, the Elderberry Port is a success, though it is still
needing a few months in the bottle. After doing this, I started the
Cherry Port (mentioned in another thread) which is also good, but not as
good as the initial Elderberry Port!

DAve

spud wrote:
> Dave:
>
> There are several poisonous plant databases administered by
> universities, gov't angencies and Canadian sources available on the
> net. You can do the research yourself for the species you've used.
>
> Comments on the port? Would you recommend elderberry port?
>
> Steve
> Oregon
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, 05 Aug 2007 20:36:41 -0400, Dave Allison
> > wrote:
>
>> Wow, didn't know about sambunigrin acid. I'm about 1/2 done with a
>> Elderberry port - and used dried elderberries. Did I need to boil them
>> as well? oops.
>>
>> DAve
>>
>> Luc Volders wrote:
>>> The elderberries are just starting to ripen over here.
>>> And I already picked about 4 kilo !!
>>>
>>> Now you can make an excellent wine from elderberries (even a port-like wine)
>>> but you have to take care of some things:
>>>
>>> a) Elderberries HAVE TO BE COOKED as there is sambunigrin acid in them
>>> which may be poisonous to some of us. By cooking the elderberries for 15
>>> minutes the sambunigrin acid will decompose and the berries are perfectly
>>> safe to sonsume (or make wine).
>>>
>>> b) You have to separate the ripe berries from the unripe. Now you can do
>>> that by hanpicking (a tedious work) as you will know the difference from
>>> color: greens are unripe black and deep purple are ripe.
>>>
>>> But the easiest way to seperate ripe from unripe berries I learned from an
>>> old winemaker.
>>>
>>> Pour a bottom of berries in a bucket and pour cold water over them. Now
>>> stir well and the unripe berries will float atop. Ripe berries have a
>>> higher sugar content and therefore will submerge. Unripe berries have a
>>> lower sugar content and therefore a lower SG and will float.
>>>
>>> For a photo session, floating berries and my recipes visit please my
>>> web-log because it is to much to publish here.
>>>
>>> http://wijnmaker.web-log.nl/
>>>
>>> Luc Volders

>

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Default Elderberry secret: an easy harvesting method

And really make your next batch from elderberries and add some
blackberries. If possible 50-50.
That's my personal favorit. It really is heavy port-like wine.

Luc Volders


On Mon, 06 Aug 2007 17:27:26 -0400, Dave Allison wrote:

> Yes, my goodness, the Elderberry Port is a success, though it is still
> needing a few months in the bottle. After doing this, I started the
> Cherry Port (mentioned in another thread) which is also good, but not as
> good as the initial Elderberry Port!
>
> DAve


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Default Elderberry secret: an easy harvesting method





"Luc Volders" > wrote in message
news
> The elderberries are just starting to ripen over here.
> And I already picked about 4 kilo !!
>
> Now you can make an excellent wine from elderberries (even a port-like wine)
> but you have to take care of some things:
>
> a) Elderberries HAVE TO BE COOKED as there is sambunigrin acid in them
> which may be poisonous to some of us. By cooking the elderberries for 15
> minutes the sambunigrin acid will decompose and the berries are perfectly
> safe to sonsume (or make wine).
>
> b) You have to separate the ripe berries from the unripe. Now you can do
> that by hanpicking (a tedious work) as you will know the difference from
> color: greens are unripe black and deep purple are ripe.
>
> But the easiest way to seperate ripe from unripe berries I learned from an
> old winemaker.
>
> Pour a bottom of berries in a bucket and pour cold water over them. Now
> stir well and the unripe berries will float atop. Ripe berries have a
> higher sugar content and therefore will submerge. Unripe berries have a
> lower sugar content and therefore a lower SG and will float.
>
> For a photo session, floating berries and my recipes visit please my
> web-log because it is to much to publish here.
>
> http://wijnmaker.web-log.nl/
>
> Luc Volders


I am amazed at this ridiculous statement I am 70 years old and have made
elderberry wine ( 4/1 elderberries/blackberries) for some 40 years. My oldest
elderberry wine is a 20% abv fortified elderberries of 1991 vintage. Sadly
only 4 bottles left. My youngest elderberry that is just about becoming
drinkable is a 2002 fortified elderberry of which I have 60 bottles ( not
bottled yet)

I definitely do NOT repeat NOT COOK elderberries. Cooking fruit can still make
pleasant wine but it makes a very different flavoured wine. I have NEVER EVER
cooked my elderberries because of any possibility of poison -- what total and
utter rubbish is being spouted by the OP.

It is however essential to remove unripe and green fruit and the multitude of
stalks for a trouble free result.

Cooking fruit was an old fashioned method of killing off wild yeasts -- these
days we hit them with a meta solution to give our introduced yeasts a good
head start.

But cooking elderberries is just not necessary. They are not poisonous but
because of their very high tannin are not suitable as an individual fruit to
be eaten raw or cooked on their own.



--

In South Yorkshire,
England, United Kingdom.

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Default Elderberry secret: an easy harvesting method


> But cooking elderberries is just not necessary. They are not poisonous but
> because of their very high tannin are not suitable as an individual fruit to
> be eaten raw or cooked on their own.
>


Hi Trevor!
How's the cycling? I never made elderberry but the winemaking
reference I have from Penn State (an agronomy school) does not suggest
cooking them either.
Joe


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Default Elderberry secret: an easy harvesting method




"Joe Sallustio" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
>> But cooking elderberries is just not necessary. They are not poisonous but
>> because of their very high tannin are not suitable as an individual fruit
>> to
>> be eaten raw or cooked on their own.
>>

>
> Hi Trevor!
> How's the cycling? I never made elderberry but the winemaking
> reference I have from Penn State (an agronomy school) does not suggest
> cooking them either.
> Joe
>
>


My 2007 cycle camping tour, in France, was following the rivers Serein, Saone
and Rhone down to Avignon through some of the homes of my favourite red wines
and a few nice whites too! Then across into Languedoc to spend a few days with
friends and enjoy some excellent wines of the "localité" before finishing in
Narbonne. I was 31 days on the road and enjoyed far more than 31 different
wines! I also celebrated my 70th birthday en route!

Next year it is going to be a circumnavigate of the Italian coast!

Trevor A Panther
In South Yorkshire,
England, United Kingdom.
www.tapan.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk ( My 2007 tour journal is completed)



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Default Elderberry secret: an easy harvesting method

A very easy way of denaturing anything unpleaant in a lot of fruit is to
steam the berries to extract the juice. This also has the advanatge of
sterilising the fruitjuice and removing the need for capmden tablets -
let's keep it as nature intended! (P.S without meaning to cause offence I
think the worry about this spurious acid is a little OTT - unless you're
drinking gallons in a sitting, or your parents were cousins in which case
any additional risks just aint worth it).

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