I made my first wine not long ago and after three months in the bottle I
don't like it very much. My wife and I drink about one case of wine a month
so we know what we like, but we can't quite place what's wrong with this
wine. If it helps, I've been brewing beer for 14 years so it's only the
wine part I'm a newbie with. We love cabernets. To us, the wine tastes
cheap, a pinch fruity, and thin.

I used a Vintner's Reserve juice kit. I followed the instructions verbatum
with no changes, and let the wine age in the bottle for three months. I'm
suspecting that either this juice kit isn't really all that great, or the
wine needs a much longer aging time. I didn't add any additional
preservatives and the juice kit made it clear that it doesn't come with
enough for long term aging.

Could there be other reasons other than aging that could cause us to not
like the wine?

Cheers,
Scott

"Scott Lindner" wrote in message
. ..
I made my first wine not long ago and after three months in the bottle I
don't like it very much. My wife and I drink about one case of wine a
month so we know what we like, but we can't quite place what's wrong with
this wine. If it helps, I've been brewing beer for 14 years so it's only
the wine part I'm a newbie with. We love cabernets. To us, the wine
tastes cheap, a pinch fruity, and thin.

I used a Vintner's Reserve juice kit. I followed the instructions
verbatum with no changes, and let the wine age in the bottle for three
months. I'm suspecting that either this juice kit isn't really all that
great, or the wine needs a much longer aging time. I didn't add any
additional preservatives and the juice kit made it clear that it doesn't
come with enough for long term aging.

Could there be other reasons other than aging that could cause us to not
like the wine?

Cheers,
Scott
probably the kit but ask here...
http://www.winepress.us/forums/index.php

choose 'kit wine comments'
much info there

Scott Lindner wrote "I made my first wine not long ago and after three
months in the bottle I
don't like it very much.....I've been brewing beer for 14 years....We love
cabernets....To us, the wine tastes
cheap, a pinch fruity, and thin.....I used a Vintner's Reserve juice kit."

Scott - I'm no fan of red wine kits (white wine kits make pretty good wine).
It will be hard to produce a proper tasting Cabernet without using whole
grapes and a fermentation scheme that includes primary fermentation in
contact with the skins. With your experience brewing you know a lot of
what you need to make good wine. You already know about the influence of
yeast on the taste and mouthfeel of finished beer. Rather than use yeast
that comes with the kit select a yeast that builds body (I like BM45 for
Cabernet). Also, read up on enological tannins such as Tan'Cor Grand Cru
and Grap'Tan S. Addition of small amounts of these tannins during bulk
aging can add body to thin wines. Plan on buying some Cabernet Sauvignon
grapes for your next attempt. Include a 3 or 4 day cold soak (at 40F)
before starting fermentation. That step will extract a lot of what the
grapes have to offer before fermentation. Good luck.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA

William Frazier wrote:
Scott Lindner wrote "I made my first wine not long ago and after three
months in the bottle I
don't like it very much.....I've been brewing beer for 14 years....We love
cabernets....To us, the wine tastes
cheap, a pinch fruity, and thin.....I used a Vintner's Reserve juice kit."

Scott - I'm no fan of red wine kits (white wine kits make pretty good wine).
It will be hard to produce a proper tasting Cabernet without using whole
grapes and a fermentation scheme that includes primary fermentation in
contact with the skins. With your experience brewing you know a lot of
what you need to make good wine. You already know about the influence of
yeast on the taste and mouthfeel of finished beer. Rather than use yeast
that comes with the kit select a yeast that builds body (I like BM45 for
Cabernet). Also, read up on enological tannins such as Tan'Cor Grand Cru
and Grap'Tan S. Addition of small amounts of these tannins during bulk
aging can add body to thin wines. Plan on buying some Cabernet Sauvignon
grapes for your next attempt. Include a 3 or 4 day cold soak (at 40F)
before starting fermentation. That step will extract a lot of what the
grapes have to offer before fermentation. Good luck.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA

Excuse the beginner's question, but where would you get Cabernet
Sauvignon grapes, fresh and in good condition, if you don't live in
California or another wine growing area?

Jim

Scott - I'm no fan of red wine kits (white wine kits make pretty good
wine). It will be hard to produce a proper tasting Cabernet without using
whole grapes and a fermentation scheme that includes primary fermentation
in contact with the skins.

Grrrr..... I asked this precise question before buying wine making
equipment. I asked if I can make good red wines of the same quality I enjoy
today. The answer was an overwhelming yes. It's not your fault, but long
ago I feared that the places I asked (not on RCW) had a bunch of folks that
don't really know what good wine is.

I live in Colorado so getting good whole grapes is going to be challenging.

Scott

"Scott Lindner" wrote in message
. ..
Scott - I'm no fan of red wine kits (white wine kits make pretty good
wine). It will be hard to produce a proper tasting Cabernet without using
whole grapes and a fermentation scheme that includes primary fermentation
in contact with the skins.

Grrrr..... I asked this precise question before buying wine making
equipment. I asked if I can make good red wines of the same quality I
enjoy today. The answer was an overwhelming yes. It's not your fault,
but long

I've made several red wine kits - Cabernet, Valpolicella, and Merlot.
They're all fine, and I'm very happy with them.
My next kit will be Zinfandel.
I live in Maine so fresh grapes are out of the question. I'd have to drive
many miles into New York State by Lake Erie to get fresh grapes or juice.

You mentioned that the wine tastes thin. I'm wondering if you may have
added too much water to top off the carboy during racking.

Scott Lindner wrote:

Scott - I'm no fan of red wine kits (white wine
kits make pretty good wine). It will be hard to
produce a proper tasting Cabernet without using
whole grapes and a fermentation scheme that
includes primary fermentation in contact with
the skins.

Grrrr..... I asked this precise question before
buying wine making
equipment. I asked if I can make good red wines
of the same quality I enjoy
today. The answer was an overwhelming yes.
It's not your fault, but long ago I feared that
the places I asked (not on RCW) had a bunch of
folks that don't really know what good wine is.

I live in Colorado so getting good whole grapes
is going to be challenging.

Scott

I don't know what part of Colorado you live in but
Grand Junction area grows a lot of grapes and
there are more vineyards going in all the time.

William Frazier wrote:


Scott Lindner wrote "I made my first wine not
long ago and after three months in the bottle I
don't like it very much.....I've been brewing
beer for 14 years....We love
cabernets....To us, the wine tastes
cheap, a pinch fruity, and thin.....I used a
Vintner's Reserve juice kit."

Scott - I'm no fan of red wine kits (white wine
kits make pretty good wine). It will be hard to
produce a proper tasting Cabernet without using
whole grapes and a fermentation scheme that
includes primary fermentation in
contact with the skins. With your experience
brewing you know a lot of
what you need to make good wine. You already
know about the influence of
yeast on the taste and mouthfeel of finished
beer. Rather than use yeast that comes with the
kit select a yeast that builds body (I like BM45
for
Cabernet).

Just curious, how does the BM45 build body?
I know that an increase in glycerol can have the
sensory effect of increased body. Is this how
BM45 does it?


Also, read up on enological tannins
such as Tan'Cor Grand Cru
and Grap'Tan S. Addition of small amounts of
these tannins during bulk
aging can add body to thin wines. Plan on
buying some Cabernet Sauvignon
grapes for your next attempt. Include a 3 or 4
day cold soak (at 40F)
before starting fermentation. That step will
extract a lot of what the
grapes have to offer before fermentation. Good
luck.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA

JimC wrote:



William Frazier wrote:
Scott Lindner wrote "I made my first wine not
long ago and after three months in the bottle I
don't like it very much.....I've been brewing
beer for 14 years....We love
cabernets....To us, the wine tastes
cheap, a pinch fruity, and thin.....I used a
Vintner's Reserve juice kit."

Scott - I'm no fan of red wine kits (white wine
kits make pretty good wine). It will be hard to
produce a proper tasting Cabernet without using
whole grapes and a fermentation scheme that
includes primary fermentation in
contact with the skins. With your experience
brewing you know a lot of
what you need to make good wine. You already
know about the influence of
yeast on the taste and mouthfeel of finished
beer. Rather than use yeast that comes with
the kit select a yeast that builds body (I like
BM45 for
Cabernet). Also, read up on enological tannins
such as Tan'Cor Grand Cru
and Grap'Tan S. Addition of small amounts of
these tannins during bulk
aging can add body to thin wines. Plan on
buying some Cabernet Sauvignon
grapes for your next attempt. Include a 3 or 4
day cold soak (at 40F)
before starting fermentation. That step will
extract a lot of what the
grapes have to offer before fermentation. Good
luck.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA

Excuse the beginner's question, but where would
you get Cabernet Sauvignon grapes, fresh and in
good condition, if you don't live in California
or another wine growing area?

Jim

Where do you live, Jim?

On Mar 28, 7:05 am, "Scott Lindner" wrote:
Scott - I'm no fan of red wine kits (white wine kits make pretty good
wine). It will be hard to produce a proper tasting Cabernet without using
whole grapes and a fermentation scheme that includes primary fermentation
in contact with the skins.

Grrrr..... I asked this precise question before buying wine making
equipment. I asked if I can make good red wines of the same quality I enjoy
today. The answer was an overwhelming yes. It's not your fault, but long
ago I feared that the places I asked (not on RCW) had a bunch of folks that
don't really know what good wine is.

I live in Colorado so getting good whole grapes is going to be challenging.

Scott

Based on my limited kit wine experience, I'm with Bill on this one,
but I am lucky in that I have an easy access to great quality grapes.
In your situation, I'd probably give it another try but with a high
end kit - Vintner's Reserve is pretty basic. Even better, if you can
sample the finished product that would give you a good idea what to
expect - the BOP stores here in Canada cannot serve samples but from
what I've heard that's generally not the case in the US.

I will keep trying every 2-3 years or so in the hopes the quality will
get there - the variety of wines one can get out of kits is pretty
much unbeatable in scope. And you can make them all year round.

Pp

"pp" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Mar 28, 7:05 am, "Scott Lindner" wrote:
Scott - I'm no fan of red wine kits (white wine kits make pretty good
wine). It will be hard to produce a proper tasting Cabernet without
using
whole grapes and a fermentation scheme that includes primary
fermentation
in contact with the skins.

Based on my limited kit wine experience, I'm with Bill on this one,
but I am lucky in that I have an easy access to great quality grapes.
In your situation, I'd probably give it another try but with a high
end kit - Vintner's Reserve is pretty basic. Even better, if you can
sample the finished product that would give you a good idea what to
expect - the BOP stores here in Canada cannot serve samples but from
what I've heard that's generally not the case in the US.

I will keep trying every 2-3 years or so in the hopes the quality will
get there - the variety of wines one can get out of kits is pretty
much unbeatable in scope. And you can make them all year round.


I've also been homebrewing beer for years and would like to try my hand at
making wine. Would anyone with experience care to suggest some "high end"
kits that they have found to be worthwhile? I've noticed some of the kits
can get fairly costly, and I also know that cost doesn't always equate into
quality. Any experiences are appreciated... (FYI, my wife and I lean more
toward the reds - Pinot Noir, Cabernet)

kevin

"I live in Colorado so getting good whole grapes is going to be
challenging."

Scott - I'm not trying to lead amateaur winemakers away from RCW but I
suggest going to Winepress.US. Ask about Colorado grapes. There are
several Colorado winemakers that post on that forum who seem to know a lot
about winemaking from fresh grapes.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA

Paul E. Lehmann wrote "Just curious, how does the BM45 build body?
I know that an increase in glycerol can have the
sensory effect of increased body. Is this how
BM45 does it?"

Paul - I don't pretend to know how BM45 does what it does. Here's a few
exerpts from the literature;
"BM45 produces high levels of polysaccharides, resulting in wines with
increased mouthfeel"
"BM45 has also been used with great success on Bordeaux varieties and helps
to minimize vegetative characters"
"BM45 has also been used on Chardonnay...to increase mouthfeel"

I can state from experience that Cabernet Franc and Sauvignon that I grow
here in the Kansas City area struggle to achieve full ripeness by the time I
have to pick them. In the past I have used RC212 , a Wyeast variety, and
Prise de Mousse. The last couple of years I've used BM45, along with
meticulous removal of all stem material, and the wines are much improved.
I've employeed other winemaking techniques but some of the improvement has
to be due to the yeast.

BTW - Chardonnay burst forth with first leaves today.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA

Did you add oak and how much and what kind? Do you like Australian
Reds or Californian or French? If you like Australians you may want
to add more oak.

This will sound silly but you can concentrate this somewhat by
freezing. Fill up a pop bottle mostly full with wine and cap loosely
and freeze it; turn it upside down into a container and let it drip
until you have just ice left. If that tastes gawd awful try adding
some of it to one of your bottles in increments and see what happens.
I don't do kits so can't speak to them but it's one way you might get
more out of this.

3 months is very young on a red; mine are awful the first year. Time
helps reds.

I guess I'm going to have to look at Winepress US, I am an old dog...

Joe

Scott -

Hmmm. I think an honest answer to your question (about red
wines) would be a "maybe." For white wines, I think I could say "yes"
with a clear conscience, unless you are used to drinking $50 bottles
of white burgundy. For reds, though, it's a bit harder. There are
some really good red kits out there. If you are looking for a big,
tannic Cab, I don't think you are going to find anything satisfactory
in the VR line. I do like some of the VR reds -- I've made the
Chianti four or five times, and am always running out. Everybody
likes it; it's very pleasant to have with food, but it's not what
you're looking for.

In the WinExpert kits, your best bet is probably the Woodbridge Ranch
11 Cabernet Sauvignon kit. Plan to age it for a year or longer,
though. WE does not have any "grape pack" Cab kits at this time; the
"grape pack" kits (WE calls theirs "Crushendo") generally get the best
reviews among reds. You might check out the several WE Crushendo kits
that are available, to see if any of them appeal to you. I've done a
couple of them so far, and have been pretty impressed. Alternatively,
if you are looking for something with a lot of tannins, I believe I've
seen comments from Tim Vandergrift of WE that the Italian
Montepulciano (in the Selection International line) is about their
most tannic kit, so you might consider that one. Again, plan to age
it for a year. One more possibility you might consider is the April
WE Limited Edition red kit - a blend of Cab and Tempranillo from
Spain. The Limited Edition kits are "one-time" deals, but are usually
quite good. If you check around in the next few days, you should be
able to find retailers that still have some of this one available - it
will be arriving at US retailers over the next week or two, I think.
I did the LE Petit Verdot kit two years ago, and it is now really
impressive.

If you are interested in fresh grapes in the fall, there may well be
sources for those. There is a winemaker who posts under the name of
Yogi on winepress.us -- I believe he is in Colorado, and is a member
of a good-sized group that brings several tons of grapes every fall.
He might be a good source. I live in Minnesota, where you might think
fresh wine grapes would be about impossible to find -- but not so,
there is a gentleman in St Paul that brings in a truck-load every
fall. It may take some research, but I think you'll be surprised at
what's available, if you check around.

The other possibility is to order some pails of frozen crushed red
grapes from Brehm Vineyards. They are premium grapes from some of the
best vineyards in Napa, Sonoma, etc., and the prices reflect that.
You are making wine essentially from grapes, not a kit, so there is a
bit more work involved. But with Brehm grapes, you can definitely
make wine that will compare favorably with commercial reds up to, say,
$20 or $30 per bottle, at least. I won't say it's easy, but it is
possible. On the other hand, you can expect to invest anywhere from
$6 to $10 per bottle in raw materials, and it is nowhere near as "fool-
proof" as kits are, these days.

Sorry for the long post. I guess it really depends on what you are
used to drinking, and how much you are willing to spend on a kit (or
fresh grapes). For most of us, the answer is "yes", so I'd encourage
you not to give up quite yet.

Doug