My wife has had some bad allergies and says she often gets headaches or
sinus issues when drinking some red wines. Yesterday she had some
allergy tests done. Sulfites came up that shes very allergic to them.
The Dr. said that generally higher end wines have less sulfites than low
end wines.

I have seen some reds state on the label that they contain no sulfites
but thats very rare. So whats the whole scoop on sulfites? What do I
look for to choose reds with low sulfites?

Or do I just tell my wife tough and drink the reds myself?

"miles" wrote in message
news:xT87g.14126$XV5.12189@fed1read10...
My wife has had some bad allergies and says she often gets headaches or
sinus issues when drinking some red wines. Yesterday she had some allergy
tests done. Sulfites came up that shes very allergic to them. The Dr.
said that generally higher end wines have less sulfites than low end
wines.

I have seen some reds state on the label that they contain no sulfites but
thats very rare. So whats the whole scoop on sulfites? What do I look
for to choose reds with low sulfites?

Or do I just tell my wife tough and drink the reds myself?

Does she have problems with white wines? White wines have sulfites as well
although generally perhaps not as much as some reds. The amount of sulfites
added to a wine depends on the pH of the wine. For example a wine with a pH
of 3.6 will require about 60 ppm. A wine with a pH of 3.5 will require
about 50 ppm and a wine with a pH of 3.4 will require about 40 ppm. I think
you can get an idea of the relationship. A lot of the California wines are
high alcohol, and high pH. White wines generally have lower pH than red
wines (around 3.3 or so) and therefore less sulfites are needed.

If you want to experiment with reds you might try a wine that is generally a
little more acidic than some such as a Chianti or Sangiovese. These may have
less sulfites - depending on the winemaker.

Also note that most red wines are barrel aged while most whites are not -
exceptions of course for some Chardonnay and Sauvignon Blanc. I personally
feel that some people experience problems with reds not because of sulfites
but because a lot of commercial red wines are aged in new oak or are
heavilly oaked. I think it may be the oak tannins from the barrel that is
the source of headaches and not necessarilly the sulfites.

In my opinion, a lot of commercial wineries over oak their wines. One way
to cover up defects in a wine is to oak the hell out of it. Some people
like the smell and taste of oak - like a cigar box. To me, this completely
covers up the fruit of the wine. This is just a personal preference - a lot
of people like a lot of oak and many are unaware that whay they are smelling
and tasting is NOT the fruit of the grape but the barrel it was aged in.

I do not know which comercial wineries use older oak or not as much oak
aging. This will just take some research and experimenting on your part.
Personally, I make my own wine - about a 100 gallons a year and have my own
backyard vineyard. A lot of people who say they don't like dry red wines
change their mind when they drink mine because I am not a fan of heavy oak
and I age my wines in an older barrel that has already given up a lot of its
oakiness. The wine still benefits from micro oxygen uptake through the
staves. Hope this helps.

miles wrote:
My wife has had some bad allergies and says she often gets headaches or
sinus issues when drinking some red wines. Yesterday she had some
allergy tests done. Sulfites came up that shes very allergic to them.
The Dr. said that generally higher end wines have less sulfites than low
end wines.

If she doesn't have problems with white wines, then her allergy to
sulfites isn't at the root of her headaches. Red wine headaches are a
medical puzzle with no clear explanation. Tannins have been suggested
as a cause, as have histamines. She might try taking an antihistamine
like Claritin before drinking red wine.


I have seen some reds state on the label that they contain no sulfites
but thats very rare. So whats the whole scoop on sulfites? What do I
look for to choose reds with low sulfites?

That's a phantom. Red wine generally has lower sulfite levels than
white wine, but virtually all wine has some (sulfites occur naturally in
grapes... and bananas).


Mark Lipton

Mark Lipton wrote:

If she doesn't have problems with white wines, then her allergy to
sulfites isn't at the root of her headaches.

My understanding is that white wines generally have far less sulfites
than reds. She claims her sinuses give her a lot of trouble after
drinking reds.

Red wine headaches are a
medical puzzle with no clear explanation. Tannins have been suggested
as a cause, as have histamines. She might try taking an antihistamine
like Claritin before drinking red wine.

I'll have her try that and see if it makes a difference.

That's a phantom. Red wine generally has lower sulfite levels than
white wine, but virtually all wine has some (sulfites occur naturally in
grapes... and bananas).

Most of the reds I've seen that state on their labels that they contain
no sulfites are also organically grown. I have no idea how the two can
be related. Seems like a separate issue.

Sulfite labeling is "either or" Almost all reds have sulfites but Contains
Sulfites must be used if sulfites reach proscribed levels. Many "organic"
wines are low in sulfites---they do not age or travel well. I understand
only organic wines can be sold in Marin county either by custom or law.
"miles" wrote in message
news:xT87g.14126$XV5.12189@fed1read10...
My wife has had some bad allergies and says she often gets headaches or
sinus issues when drinking some red wines. Yesterday she had some
allergy tests done. Sulfites came up that shes very allergic to them.
The Dr. said that generally higher end wines have less sulfites than low
end wines.

I have seen some reds state on the label that they contain no sulfites
but thats very rare. So whats the whole scoop on sulfites? What do I
look for to choose reds with low sulfites?

Or do I just tell my wife tough and drink the reds myself?

On Sat, 6 May 2006 21:19:16 -0400, "Dionysus" wrote:

White wines have sulfites as well
although generally perhaps not as much as some reds. The amount of sulfites
added to a wine depends on the pH of the wine.

I was unaware of both these facts. Could you give more details and
explain why?

I thought the sulphite content AT THE TIME OF BOTTLING merely
reflected the winemakers doubts about the the sterilty of the wine and
bottling process, and fears about bacterial infections in the bottle.
IOW, good winemakers that are confident about their product and
processes, and able to properly control sulphur, will bottle with low
sulphite levels. Those unsure will whack in a good dose of sulphites
to be on the safe side.

Sulphur and SO2 are used in various earlier stages in wine growing and
making, but a lot of this will have blown off by the end of the
process.

--
Steve Slatcher
http://pobox.com/~steve.slatcher

"Steve Slatcher" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 6 May 2006 21:19:16 -0400, "Dionysus" wrote:

White wines have sulfites as well
although generally perhaps not as much as some reds. The amount of
sulfites
added to a wine depends on the pH of the wine.

I was unaware of both these facts. Could you give more details and
explain why?

Here is everything you need to know about sulfites in wine and why it is
used and calculating the amount used. Some of the material is quite
technical but it is easily skimmed and you can get a good understanding
without becoming bogged down.
Hope this helps

http://www.brsquared.org/wine/Articles/SO2/SO2.htm


I thought the sulphite content AT THE TIME OF BOTTLING merely
reflected the winemakers doubts about the the sterilty of the wine and
bottling process, and fears about bacterial infections in the bottle.
IOW, good winemakers that are confident about their product and
processes, and able to properly control sulphur, will bottle with low
sulphite levels. Those unsure will whack in a good dose of sulphites
to be on the safe side.

No, see the above link.


Sulphur and SO2 are used in various earlier stages in wine growing and
making, but a lot of this will have blown off by the end of the
process.

See the above link


--
Steve Slatcher
http://pobox.com/~steve.slatcher

On Sun, 7 May 2006 07:07:38 -0400, "Dionysus" wrote:


"Steve Slatcher" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 6 May 2006 21:19:16 -0400, "Dionysus" wrote:

White wines have sulfites as well
although generally perhaps not as much as some reds. The amount of
sulfites
added to a wine depends on the pH of the wine.

I was unaware of both these facts. Could you give more details and
explain why?

Here is everything you need to know about sulfites in wine and why it is
used and calculating the amount used. Some of the material is quite
technical but it is easily skimmed and you can get a good understanding
without becoming bogged down.
Hope this helps

http://www.brsquared.org/wine/Articles/SO2/SO2.htm

Thanks for the link. Interesting stuff.

So it seems that "molecular SO2" is what is required to keep the
bacteria down. And that more acidic wines require more "free SO2" to
maintain the level of the molecular form.

But this site also points out that, as white wines tend to be more
acidic than reds, they tend to require MORE SO2, not less. (Most of
what you wrote was correct, but your final logical conclusion went the
wrong way.)

Typical values quoted on the site for free SO2 in mg/l on bottling
a
dry white: 20-30
sweet white: 30-50
red: 10-30

I thought the sulphite content AT THE TIME OF BOTTLING merely
reflected the winemakers doubts about the the sterilty of the wine and
bottling process, and fears about bacterial infections in the bottle.
IOW, good winemakers that are confident about their product and
processes, and able to properly control sulphur, will bottle with low
sulphite levels. Those unsure will whack in a good dose of sulphites
to be on the safe side.

No, see the above link.

You can certainly strike the word "merely" in what I wrote, as pH is a
factor.

Otherwise I don't see anything on the site to contradict my statement.

--
Steve Slatcher
http://pobox.com/~steve.slatcher

"Steve Slatcher" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 7 May 2006 07:07:38 -0400, "Dionysus" wrote:


"Steve Slatcher" wrote in message
. ..
On Sat, 6 May 2006 21:19:16 -0400, "Dionysus" wrote:

White wines have sulfites as well
although generally perhaps not as much as some reds. The amount of
sulfites
added to a wine depends on the pH of the wine.

I was unaware of both these facts. Could you give more details and
explain why?

Here is everything you need to know about sulfites in wine and why it is
used and calculating the amount used. Some of the material is quite
technical but it is easily skimmed and you can get a good understanding
without becoming bogged down.
Hope this helps

http://www.brsquared.org/wine/Articles/SO2/SO2.htm

Thanks for the link. Interesting stuff.

So it seems that "molecular SO2" is what is required to keep the
bacteria down. And that more acidic wines require more "free SO2" to
maintain the level of the molecular form.

NO. a higher pH means LESS acidic. I know it is counter intuitive but look
in your chemistry book. For example, a pH of 3.3 is a LOT more ACIDIC than
a pH of 3.5
Most water will have a pH of somewhere near 7.0 depending on the source and
how it was treated. Again, a higher pH wine (less acidic) requires MORE
sulphite.



But this site also points out that, as white wines tend to be more
acidic than reds, they tend to require MORE SO2, not less. (Most of
what you wrote was correct, but your final logical conclusion went the
wrong way.)

Yes, white wines generally more acidic than reds and hence LESS sulphite is
required.


Typical values quoted on the site for free SO2 in mg/l on bottling
a
dry white: 20-30
sweet white: 30-50
red: 10-30

I thought the sulphite content AT THE TIME OF BOTTLING merely
reflected the winemakers doubts about the the sterilty of the wine and
bottling process, and fears about bacterial infections in the bottle.
IOW, good winemakers that are confident about their product and
processes, and able to properly control sulphur, will bottle with low
sulphite levels. Those unsure will whack in a good dose of sulphites
to be on the safe side.

No, see the above link.

You can certainly strike the word "merely" in what I wrote, as pH is a
factor.

Otherwise I don't see anything on the site to contradict my statement.

--
Steve Slatcher
http://pobox.com/~steve.slatcher

On Sun, 7 May 2006 16:01:54 -0400, "Dionysus" wrote:

Again, a higher pH wine (less acidic) requires MORE sulphite.

OK. Understood now (it was not the meaning of pH that was my
problem).

But for some reason Ben Rotter (quoted below) still seems to think
reds can typically contain less sulphur than whites, even dry whites.

Typical values quoted on the site for free SO2 in mg/l on bottling
a
dry white: 20-30
sweet white: 30-50
red: 10-30

--
Steve Slatcher
http://pobox.com/~steve.slatcher

Steve Slatcher wrote:
On Sun, 7 May 2006 16:01:54 -0400, "Dionysus" wrote:


Again, a higher pH wine (less acidic) requires MORE sulphite.


OK. Understood now (it was not the meaning of pH that was my
problem).

But for some reason Ben Rotter (quoted below) still seems to think
reds can typically contain less sulphur than whites, even dry whites.

I don't know myself but the "Wine for Dummies" book says that red wines
contain far less sulfur than white wines. They say it's because tannin
in red wines acts as a preservative, making sulfur dioxide less necessary.

Bruce wrote:

I don't know myself but the "Wine for Dummies" book says that red wines
contain far less sulfur than white wines. They say it's because tannin
in red wines acts as a preservative, making sulfur dioxide less necessary.

That's right. Both sulfites and tannins act as antioxidants by reacting
with molecular oxygen. So, the more tannic the wine, the less sulfites
needed. Additionally, or perhaps tangentially, most wine drinkers prize
freshness more in whites than in reds, so sulfites are more needed in
white wines.

Mark Lipton

"Mark Lipton" wrote in message
m...
Bruce wrote:

I don't know myself but the "Wine for Dummies" book says that red wines
contain far less sulfur than white wines. They say it's because tannin
in red wines acts as a preservative, making sulfur dioxide less
necessary.

That's right. Both sulfites and tannins act as antioxidants by reacting
with molecular oxygen. So, the more tannic the wine, the less sulfites
needed. Additionally, or perhaps tangentially, most wine drinkers prize
freshness more in whites than in reds, so sulfites are more needed in
white wines.

Mark Lipton

Good point, Mark, thanks for elaborating.

I style my reds differently than a lot of commercial wineries and sometimes
I get stuck in my own mindset.

I do not use new oak or age for a long time in barrel and hence tend to make
my red wines more in the manner of white wine production. I have even cold
fermented some red wine and it did indeed preserve the fruitiness. I think
some commercial wineries are starting to sort of lean in this direction
also. I worked at a commercial winery for a couple years after I retired.

I ferment at a slightly cooler temperature, avoid over oaking and adjust my
SO2 by the rule of thumb I mentioned earlier - pH 3.3 - 30 ppm, pH 3.4 - 40
ppm etc.

I try to never let my wines get above a pH of 3.5. A pH of about 3.35 to
3.4 (for reds) is what I am for. Above a pH of 3.5, if the sulfite is not
adjusted appropriately, the wine will be very short lived. It will often
times also develop Mercaptans - which can smell like fingernail polish
remover or can favor the growth of Brettanomysis, with its barnyard, rubber
boot flavors or develop a film yeast which if left untreated can impart off
flavors and aromas.

Tannins do indeed act as a preservative and you can let a highly tannic wine
sit open for longer than a low tanic wine without adverse affects such as
oxidation. Tannin is a natural antioxidant.

It is this property of tannin which makes me suspect that the recent
literature that suggest that red wine is supposedly better for your heart
health than white wine comes, in part at least, from the increased tannins
in reds since most whites are not fermented on the skin, are not barrel aged
(exceptions of course) and therefore have a lower tannin content than red
wines.

I suspect, but have never seen published, the benefits of tannin as an
antioxidant and hence health benefits. I know there are other compounds in
red wine that are supposedly beneficial to health but I also have read that
small amounts of whiskey also supply some benefit. Remember, the color in
whiskey comes from aging in oak barrels and hence picks up some tannins from
the barrel. Just a coincidence perhaps but maybe some future PHD could do
some research on the affects of tannin as antioxidants and the benefits of
it.

There is really is no way you can generalize SO2 content based on the
color of the wine. It's just not that simple. There are many factors
involved in determining how much SO2 is added to a wine and there are
even different measurements. There is total SO2, free SO2 and molecular
SO2. Some of the factors involved in how much SO2 is added are pH,
aging regiment, tannin content, residual sugar, oxygen exposure,
closure type, ABV, if MLF wanted and I've probably missed some. The
list is just too long to generalize.

As an example, a german Auslese will most likely have a lot more SO2
than a simple Beaujolais, yet a Rioja Gran Reserva probably has more
added than a buttery, oaky Chardonnay.

Andy

"JEP62" wrote in message
oups.com...

There is really is no way you can generalize SO2 content based on the
color of the wine.

Determine, no - Generalize, yes

It's just not that simple. There are many factors
involved in determining how much SO2 is added to a wine and there are
even different measurements.

There are different ways to Measure but the AO method is the preferred one.
The Ripper test is far less accurate.

There is total SO2, free SO2 and molecular
SO2.

Free SO2 is what is used to determine antioxidant properties and anti
spoilage properties.


Some of the factors involved in how much SO2 is added are pH,
aging regiment, tannin content, residual sugar, oxygen exposure,
closure type, ABV, if MLF wanted and I've probably missed some. The
list is just too long to generalize.

All true but pH is a BIG factor if not the biggest factor - GENERALLY.
True, if you intend to drink your wine very soon, it is less critical - BUT
if you are a winemaker and you barrel age your wines, a high pH can promote
spoilage organisms that can ruin your barrel and barrels are expensive. For
example the acetobacter may be high but barely detectable when drinking but
the barrel when refilled will be contaminated and subsequent wines will
suffer or be ruined. The only thing that can be done then is turn that
barrel into a planter for flowers or whatever.

SO2 will inhibit residual sugar from restarting a fermentation but will not
prevent it. I do not see residual sugar as an issue unless you are trying
to reduce the chance for renewed fermentation after bottling. There are
better ways to accomplish this.

ABV - have you ever tasted Sherry or Port - both are high alcohol wines and
they are OXIDIZED wines. In my opinion high alcohol is a poor way to
stabilize wine unless you are more interested in a buzz than a nice fruity
wine.

Oxygen exposure is bad for any wine - unless you love the port or sherry
taste and bouquet.

Closure type is insignificant. I know there is a lot of controversy about
it but there are some drawbacks to the pop trend for screwtops.

It think GENERALIZATIONS are valid and useful guidelines but your point that
there are many variables is well stated.


As an example, a german Auslese will most likely have a lot more SO2
than a simple Beaujolais, yet a Rioja Gran Reserva probably has more
added than a buttery, oaky Chardonnay.

Most Beaujolais are drunk young and hence no need for long life storage.

Any kind of "buttery" wine has undergone Malo Lactic Fermention (ML) and
therefore sulfites are not used or sparingly used because they inhibit the
ML culture.

Getting back to the question of the OP, GENERALLY white wines will have a
lower tannin content. It may be the tannins - especially from the oak that
is causing his wife's problems. GENERALLY white wines need less SO2 because
they GENERALLY have higher natural acidity. His wife did not have a problem
with white wines so I think it makes sense for her to try to find a low
tannin red - or perhaps get to know an amateur wine maker who does not
barrel age his or her red wines. Unfortunately, there is not way to find
the SO2 content in a wine unless you have your own AO test apparatus OR you
want to spend about $12 to have a lab analyze it for you. Ripper test will
cost a little less but is less accurate.


Andy