Consumed last night with grilled elk steaks (a Hugh Johnson recommended
pairing - dead on)

nose: brambly blackberry and a slight meatiness
palate: big, loads of berry fruit, lightly tannic with good structure
and a noticeable meaty character, long finish

This 98% Mourvedre cuvée from the Dutheil sisters was purchased
ex-domaine while visiting there with Mike Tommasi, Nils and Christina
Lindgren and hand-carried back to the US. Still young and somewhat
tight, it really benefitted from the pairing with the elk, which brought
out the fruity elements and rounded out the wine nicely. A really good
wine and a good food match, there is no hurry to drink this puppy as
it'll easily go another 5-10 years.

Mark Lipton

On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 13:10:30 -0500, Mark Lipton
wrote:

Consumed last night with grilled elk steaks (a Hugh Johnson recommended
pairing - dead on)

nose: brambly blackberry and a slight meatiness
palate: big, loads of berry fruit, lightly tannic with good structure
and a noticeable meaty character, long finish

This 98% Mourvedre cuvée from the Dutheil sisters was purchased
ex-domaine while visiting there with Mike Tommasi, Nils and Christina
Lindgren and hand-carried back to the US. Still young and somewhat
tight, it really benefitted from the pairing with the elk, which brought
out the fruity elements and rounded out the wine nicely. A really good
wine and a good food match, there is no hurry to drink this puppy as
it'll easily go another 5-10 years.

Mark Lipton

I struggle to think of a decent red wine that wouldn't go well with a
elk steak that has been brought within five feet of the flame and held
there for a scant fifteen seconds or so per side. An elk backstrap is
a wonderful thing.

That being said, the Bandol gets a comment. I've only tasted Bandol
twice, and I don't recall the vintner. The first bottle was in a
restaurant specializing in mussels done in a dozen or so
styles--almost all good, but admittedly not a perfect foil for a red.

The bottle had a nose that would gag a stable mucker and the taste
followed through on the promise of the bouquet. Even a friend who will
gag down almost anything, found it unbearable. The waiter and maitre'
when summoned both confirmed to us that the wine was correct and that
was the way it was supposed to taste! We still returned it and ordered
something else.

After an otherwise delightful lunch, we retired to the friends house
where he recalled a Bandol that he had in the cellar. This one was
eighteen years old, rather than the five year old we had (or didn't
have) at the restaurant. We opened, swirled, sniffed and swirled again
only to be greeted with a much cleaner stable and animals that
apparently had benefited from a better diet. Still not good, but at
least drinkable.

Mourvedre always seems to my taste to be barnyardy (newly coined
descriptor), and while it seldom achieves the rancidity I encountered
in one day in those two Bandols, it isn't on my short list for good
experiences.

Maybe I should revisit the grape in general and Bandol in particular?

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com

"Mike Tommasi" wrote:

Nils Gustaf Lindgren wrote:

Mike T apparently being out of town (he usually hears the word "Bandol"
mentioned on the NG even while fast asleep) I will go in and vouch for
the worthwhileness of such a visit.

I agree ;-)

On Sunday we are having the annual meeting of our association at Domaine
Tempier. Tempier is also worth a visit !!!

I think that the Tempier rosé is one of the best rosé's you can find.

Regards,
Robèrt

Ed Rasimus wrote:
I struggle to think of a decent red wine that wouldn't go well with a
elk steak that has been brought within five feet of the flame and held
there for a scant fifteen seconds or so per side. An elk backstrap is
a wonderful thing.

Yes, I was really excited to find elk here in "flyover country." It's
farm-raised, but appears to be free range. I talked to the farmer about
getting some venison saddle for oven roasting to approximate the
"rehrücken" I had in Germany as a child. One question for you: what's
your favorite preparation of elk? Jean just treated these steaks like
beef (we were out of bacon, so couldn't bard it as I wanted to) and they
turned out pretty tough. Do you marinate? Flash grill? I'm actually
tempted to try a pot-a-feu with some, but welcome any suggestions you have.


Mourvedre always seems to my taste to be barnyardy (newly coined
descriptor), and while it seldom achieves the rancidity I encountered
in one day in those two Bandols, it isn't on my short list for good
experiences.

Maybe I should revisit the grape in general and Bandol in particular?

Have you tried any CA Mourvedres, Ed? Cline's Small Berry Mourvedre is
a good rendition of the grape, if not likely to pass for a Bandol. Have
you also tried Ch. Beaucastel? (actually, not the best intro to
Mourvedre because of their Brett "problem") If you have and liked
either, I'd definitely suggest that you try a better Bandol. Any of the
ones imported by Kermit Lynch is worth a try, although the one I posted
about is imported by Louis/Dressner. Yes, there is a barnyard note to
most Bandol I've tried, but nothing more than I've got in Syrahs from
the N. Rhone and some Burgundies.

Mark Lipton

Yes, I was really excited to find elk here in "flyover country." It's
farm-raised, but appears to be free range. I talked to the farmer about
getting some venison saddle for oven roasting to approximate the
"rehrücken" I had in Germany as a child.

Does elk taste the same as venison,? they seem to be bloody big deer.

John Taverner wrote:
Yes, I was really excited to find elk here in "flyover country." It's
farm-raised, but appears to be free range. I talked to the farmer about
getting some venison saddle for oven roasting to approximate the
"rehrücken" I had in Germany as a child.

Does elk taste the same as venison,? they seem to be bloody big deer.



John, the answer to your question is complicated, as what you think of
as the flavor of venison is unlikely to be the same as mine. As I've
never had the pleasure of consuming venison in the UK, I'll simply have
to interpolate. The simple answer is no. Elk is leaner than venison
(very lean indeed) and is actually closer to beef in flavor than most
venison is. In our case, both the elk and the venison were farm-raised
and less gamey than I'd prefer, but the venison was to my taste more
interesting: gamier, richer in flavor and easier to cook. However, I am
also comparing two somewhat different cuts: venison tenderloin
(backstrap, Ed?) and elk steaks that IIRC were cut from the loin.
Clearly, more research is in order :-)

HTH
Mark Lipton

On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 04:44:43 GMT, Mark Lipton
wrote:

Ed Rasimus wrote:
I struggle to think of a decent red wine that wouldn't go well with a
elk steak that has been brought within five feet of the flame and held
there for a scant fifteen seconds or so per side. An elk backstrap is
a wonderful thing.

Yes, I was really excited to find elk here in "flyover country." It's
farm-raised, but appears to be free range. I talked to the farmer about
getting some venison saddle for oven roasting to approximate the
"rehrücken" I had in Germany as a child. One question for you: what's
your favorite preparation of elk? Jean just treated these steaks like
beef (we were out of bacon, so couldn't bard it as I wanted to) and they
turned out pretty tough. Do you marinate? Flash grill? I'm actually
tempted to try a pot-a-feu with some, but welcome any suggestions you have.

Elk is a very lean meat. That means it will quickly dry out if
over-cooked. Very rare is the only way to approach steaks and then the
only tender ones are likely to be from the backstrap. Sirloins,
rounds, and chucks will do much better if done in some sort of slow
cooker or braised.

The key to good game, in my experience, is never, NEVER, cut a bone
when processing. Sawing through the bones using butcher techniques for
beef will result in bone dust and marrow polluting the meat and giving
a strong gamey taste. Cut all meat from the bone and you'll have mild,
lean red meat that can be used in almost any preparation that calls
for beef.

One of my favorites for elk tenderloins or tournedos has been Julia
Child's recipe for Steak Diane. Tournedos pounded to about 1/2" then
quickly sauted. Sauce of scallions, green peppercorns, Dijon mustard,
beef broth and a touch of cornstarch. Mashers, some haricots vert and
a good Pinot Noir....ahhhh, that's living.


Mourvedre always seems to my taste to be barnyardy (newly coined
descriptor), and while it seldom achieves the rancidity I encountered
in one day in those two Bandols, it isn't on my short list for good
experiences.

Maybe I should revisit the grape in general and Bandol in particular?

Have you tried any CA Mourvedres, Ed? Cline's Small Berry Mourvedre is
a good rendition of the grape, if not likely to pass for a Bandol. Have
you also tried Ch. Beaucastel? (actually, not the best intro to
Mourvedre because of their Brett "problem")

That "problem" is the key to my aversions to Mourvedres. I'm one of
those that a Brett encounter will put off for a long time. I can
forgive, but somehow can't forget.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com

The key to good game, in my experience, is never, NEVER, cut a bone
when processing. Sawing through the bones using butcher techniques for
beef will result in bone dust and marrow polluting the meat and giving
a strong gamey taste.

Every day one learns summat new.

thanks Mark and Ed

"John Taverner" wrote in news:c%7Uf.262223
:


Yes, I was really excited to find elk here in "flyover country." It's
farm-raised, but appears to be free range. I talked to the farmer about
getting some venison saddle for oven roasting to approximate the
"rehrücken" I had in Germany as a child.

Does elk taste the same as venison,? they seem to be bloody big deer.

When I was younger and ate more game, I found that the rough comparison
between at least US versions was that venison was similar to lamb and elk
was similar to beef. (NB neither tasted like chicken!)

--
Joseph Coulter
Cruises and Vacations
http://www.josephcoulter.com/

On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 08:35:20 GMT, "John Taverner"
wrote:


Yes, I was really excited to find elk here in "flyover country." It's
farm-raised, but appears to be free range. I talked to the farmer about
getting some venison saddle for oven roasting to approximate the
"rehrücken" I had in Germany as a child.

Does elk taste the same as venison,? they seem to be bloody big deer.


I saw Mark's response already and don't disagree.

I've lived for the last 20 years in the Rocky Mts--until relocating
last fall to N. Texas. During that time, I hunted nearly every year
and had the opportunity to take a mule deer almost every year, several
elk and a couple of pronhorn antelope.

All were processed as I mentioned--deboned completely. All were
excellent fare, particularly if care was used to avoid over-cooking.

As with most animals, the taste is influenced by the feed. Consider
the difference between grass-fed, corn-fed and the Kobe beer/mash fed
beef.

Elk can be a bit stronger in my experience, but not at all "gamey" in
a negative sense. Deer (that would be Mule Deer, not white-tail) are a
bit more tender and delicate. Antelope, if properly processed can be
likened to good veal--if not properly handled, think cheap goat.

I've done the disreputable deed of inviting folks for dinner who
express a strong aversion to game, and then after enjoying the Pepper
Steak or "Beef" Bourguignonne disclosed that they'd enjoyed elk or
venison despite their distaste for such. Few have been offended and
most have been amazed.

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com

Mark Lipton wrote:
John Taverner wrote:

Yes, I was really excited to find elk here in "flyover country." It's
farm-raised, but appears to be free range. I talked to the farmer about
getting some venison saddle for oven roasting to approximate the
"rehrücken" I had in Germany as a child.

Does elk taste the same as venison,? they seem to be bloody big deer.




John, the answer to your question is complicated, as what you think of
as the flavor of venison is unlikely to be the same as mine. As I've
never had the pleasure of consuming venison in the UK, I'll simply have
to interpolate. The simple answer is no. Elk is leaner than venison
(very lean indeed) and is actually closer to beef in flavor than most
venison is. In our case, both the elk and the venison were farm-raised
and less gamey than I'd prefer, but the venison was to my taste more
interesting: gamier, richer in flavor and easier to cook. However, I am
also comparing two somewhat different cuts: venison tenderloin
(backstrap, Ed?) and elk steaks that IIRC were cut from the loin.
Clearly, more research is in order :-)

HTH
Mark Lipton

There is a need to be precise about what kinds of deer are "elk" and
"venison". As I understand it, Euro "elk" is N American "moose", while
NA "elk" is Euro "red deer". "Venison", AFAIK, can be any deer meat, but
I've seen definitions that exclude elk/moose/red deer/wapiti.

I'm confused. Oh, and I have eaten venison in the UK (most recently with
Chateau Palmer 1983).


--brian

--
Wellington, New Zealand

"What's life? Life's easy. A quirk of matter. Nature's way of keeping
meat fresh."

"Brian Boutel" fake@fake skrev i melding ...
Mark Lipton wrote:
There is a need to be precise about what kinds of deer are "elk" and
"venison". As I understand it, Euro "elk" is N American "moose", while NA
"elk" is Euro "red deer". "Venison", AFAIK, can be any deer meat, but I've
seen definitions that exclude elk/moose/red deer/wapiti.

Thanks for that - I didn't know about NA elk.

NA moose and E elk are indeed close relatives, but there are differnces, I
understand.
And, yes, elk is very lean and not as gamey in taste as some other game. My
dad claimed elk and cows could breed, but it sounds a bit unlikely to me.
Rural legend, perhaps :-)

Anders

Nils Gustaf Lindgren wrote:

Oh dear (oh deer?) www.klingh.com/älg%201.gif this is the cow
www.hlasek.com/foto/alces_alces_6630.jpg this is the bull.

Right you are, Nils. Alces alces (moose/elk) is spread throughout the
Northlands, encompassing both N. America and Eurasia.

I don´t know if cervus canadensis is a true species, or a sub-species of
cervus elaphus, in which case cervus elaphus canadensis would appear more
appropriate - cervus elaphus would be the red deer in UK, kronhjort in
Swedish, cerf élaphe in French ...

It is my understanding that c. canadensis is now a deprecated species,
having been shown to be genetically indistinguishable from c. elaphus.
I must admit that I had never realized until this exchange that the red
deer of Europe is the wapiti/elk of the US. It's all the more
remarkable for me because the red deer I've eaten in Europe has been so
much *more* gamey than the elk I've eaten here -- it just underscores
the importance of diet to the flavor, I suppose.

Mark Lipton

Nils Gustaf Lindgren wrote:
"Mark Lipton" skrev i meddelandet
...

Nils Gustaf Lindgren wrote:


Oh dear (oh deer?) www.klingh.com/�lg%201.gif this is the cow
www.hlasek.com/foto/alces_alces_6630.jpg this is the bull.

Right you are, Nils. Alces alces (moose/elk) is spread throughout the
Northlands, encompassing both N. America and Eurasia.


I don�t know if cervus canadensis is a true species, or a sub-species of
cervus elaphus, in which case cervus elaphus canadensis would appear more
appropriate - cervus elaphus would be the red deer in UK, kronhjort in
Swedish, cerf �laphe in French ...

It is my understanding that c. canadensis is now a deprecated species,
having been shown to be genetically indistinguishable from c. elaphus.
I must admit that I had never realized until this exchange that the red
deer of Europe is the wapiti/elk of the US. It's all the more
remarkable for me because the red deer I've eaten in Europe has been so
much *more* gamey than the elk I've eaten here -- it just underscores
the importance of diet to the flavor, I suppose.



In fact the Fallow deer (Dama dama, daino in Italian ... ad nauseam) is
considered more gamey than the Red deer. Alces alces tend towars beef, but
older individuals taste a bit like beef liver. Roe deer (Capreolus
capreolus), which I refer to as Bambi (because in the Swedish translation
Bambi is a roe) is also rather gamey.
Any of them would do well with a bandol with lots of Mourvedre, which, as I
recll, was where we started.


OK. Now, which kinds of deer meat is used for venison? I gather that in
NA, "elk" is not, since people were distinguishing the two.

I had not considered this question before, having assumed that all deer
meat was 'venison".

--brian

--
Wellington, New Zealand

"What's life? Life's easy. A quirk of matter. Nature's way of keeping
meat fresh."