So yesterday Betsy went to work, I did some errands, then prepared to
take train into city. I opened a 1983 Leoville-Poyferre, and was
worried that I got some TCA as I opened. But it seemed to blow off as I
decanted, the wine was rather tight and brooding as I put back in
bottle, but I felt ok re wine. I grabbed a Trimbach Gewurz and headed
to the train. Took a subway to Lincoln Center, met Betsy at stage door.
We took a leisurely walk through Central Park (caught the Delacorte
clock's 5 PM show), and eventually arrived for our early reservation at
Park Avenue Cafe.

Bob Ross, Jay Miller, Robin Garr, and Mary (Johnson?) arrived shortly
thereafter, and we had a nice dinner with some nice wines:

1988 Bollinger R. D. Champagne
Certainly a well-made wine, but further evidence to me that I'm happier
with Champagne young (and in the lighter house styles). This seems
ponderous and heavy to me (for me this is Ab not Fab), and the
oxidative notes detract. C+ from me, but Bollys/Krug fans would rate
higher, this is preference not quality issues.

1998 Trimbach "Seigneurs de Ribeaupierre" Gewürztraminer
Pleasanty pungent nose, with flowers and litchi. Minerality and a litte
herb on the finish. Tiny hint of RS. Excellent acidity for Gewurz
(obviously a Gewurz is never going to be zippy, all I actually hope for
is "not flabby", this has a pretty good verve to it), even after it
warmed a bit. B+/A-

1986 Nikolaihof "Honifogl" Gruner Veltliner
This had softer acidity that I expected, but was really quite nice.
Opened with a green pea/peach nose, became more slate/mineral-driven
with air. My initial impression was I liked more than its brother wine,
a 1986 Nikolaihof Riesling that Jay had previously shared. There's a
little white pepper , too. Revisited at end it was just too warm to see
any evolution, just seemed fat and tired. B+

1973 Trimbach Clos Ste. Hune Riesling
The problem with high expectations is there's no upside- or so I
thought. I tried to keep my expectations in check, but no matter what
this wine could meet those expectations! Fragrant petrolly nose, with
layers of rocks, smoke, green apple, and grapefruit. Light but with a
sense of strength, Jay uses the word "perfect" and I find nothing there
to argue with. Revisited towards end of night it was fading a bit, but
still very pleasant. Thanks Bob, this gets a solid A.

2000 Drouhin "Baudes" Chambolle-Musigny 1er
Very pretty, and quite accessible. Pure black & red cherry fruit, a
little earth and mushroom. Clean, pure, pleasurable. A-/B+

1983 Leoville Poyferre (St Julien)
Damn. I (re)pull cork on this, get some cardboard. Pour a little, maybe
it's ok pass it around. Swirl a bit, assaulted by damp cardboard.
Should have gone with my initial impression and opened the backup
bottle when I decanted. Did I say damn?

1995 Lafarge Clos des Chenes Volnay 1er
Tight, hard, and tannic at first. Needs time. Some frantic swirling
eventually coaxes out some black raspberry and cherry fruit. High in
acid, I'd put these away for a long time. For now, B/B+

2000 Joliet "Clos de la Perrière" (Monopole) Fixin 1er
I was very interested to try this, a producer I had not run across
before.
A little rustic, and quite tight at first. More structured than I
expected. Opened towards end with some wild strawberries. This gets a
B/B- last night, but probably is a better wine than that- last sip was
definitely the best.

Nice lineup, but the people were even better than the Clos Ste. Hune.

A few random thoughts:
Betsy's short ribs were quite excellent, my duck breast was overdone
for my tastes. The accompanying duck ravioli was excellent, however.
Nice sides of spinach and brussels sprouts, but I found the mushrooms a
tad characterless. Desserts seemed to be big hits (Betsy had to leave
early for a La Boheme, I carried her a strudel home, which she quite
enjoyed at midnight).

Sometimes I try not to rock the boat. Last night I wished I had. As
they were pouring the Champagne, the waiter suggested the plateau
fruits de mer. I thought about questioning the cost, but didn't, as
several people said that sounded good. It was good- lobster, oysters,
clams, shrimp. But when bill came we basically paid 2-3X what we would
have paid for individual appetizers. My personal vow is to never again
order any special or waiter suggestion without questioning the cost.

One good thing about Park Avenue Cafe's corkage policy (no corkage if
not on their list) is that they told Jay upfront that a $10/bottle
gratuity for the waitstaff would be appreciated/expected. That's a nice
solution to an issue that can perplex.

We had an interesting discussion over why one feels bad for bringing a
corked or otherwise defective wine- afterall, I neither made the
Poyferre nor its cork. My conclusion is simply that one is bringing
gifts to share with one's friends, and wants to contribute. It's not
competition, just doing ones part.


Grade disclaimer: I'm a very easy grader, basically A is an excellent
wine, B a good wine, C mediocre. Anything below C means I wouldn't
drink at a party where it was only choice. Furthermore, I offer no
promises of objectivity, accuracy, and certainly not of consistency

On 19 Mar 2006 07:49:49 -0800, "DaleW" wrote:

So yesterday Betsy went to work, I did some errands, then prepared to
take train into city. I opened a 1983 Leoville-Poyferre, and was
worried that I got some TCA as I opened. But it seemed to blow off as I
decanted, the wine was rather tight and brooding as I put back in
bottle, but I felt ok re wine. I grabbed a Trimbach Gewurz and headed
to the train. Took a subway to Lincoln Center, met Betsy at stage door.
We took a leisurely walk through Central Park (caught the Delacorte
clock's 5 PM show), and eventually arrived for our early reservation at
Park Avenue Cafe.

One of these days when I've exhausted all of the things and places on
my short list of going and doing, I've got to spend some time in NYC.
I've always had an aversion to the place, with a somewhat provincial
view of the big city tainted by years of watching NYPD Blue.

Just as with Chicago where I grew up, there are dark sides and bright
sides to every metro area.

1988 Bollinger R. D. Champagne
Certainly a well-made wine, but further evidence to me that I'm happier
with Champagne young (and in the lighter house styles). This seems
ponderous and heavy to me (for me this is Ab not Fab), and the
oxidative notes detract. C+ from me, but Bollys/Krug fans would rate
higher, this is preference not quality issues.

Count me in the Bolly fan column for that almost oxidized taste. Had a
'92 Bollinger Grande Annee two years ago on New Year's Eve at home and
absolutely was blown away by the big HEAVY golden warmth of the wine
flavor. Wife OTOH, couldn't stand it, leaving me the task of
consumming the bulk of the bottle. Thankless, but someone had to do
it.

When I drink those lighter house offerings, I kind myself wondering
what I'm getting for the $$$ when I don't see much difference from
Tott's Brut.

A few random thoughts:
Betsy's short ribs were quite excellent, my duck breast was overdone
for my tastes. The accompanying duck ravioli was excellent, however.
Nice sides of spinach and brussels sprouts, but I found the mushrooms a
tad characterless. Desserts seemed to be big hits (Betsy had to leave
early for a La Boheme, I carried her a strudel home, which she quite
enjoyed at midnight).

Sometimes I try not to rock the boat. Last night I wished I had. As
they were pouring the Champagne, the waiter suggested the plateau
fruits de mer. I thought about questioning the cost, but didn't, as
several people said that sounded good. It was good- lobster, oysters,
clams, shrimp. But when bill came we basically paid 2-3X what we would
have paid for individual appetizers. My personal vow is to never again
order any special or waiter suggestion without questioning the cost.

Your experience seems to be popping up at more places around the
country. Saw a review for an up-scale restaurant in Big D last weekend
(Il Mulino New York--coincidence?) in which the reviewer took the
waiter's recommendation for Dover Sole which came out at $60! Sorry,
there's nothing you can do with a sole that gets it to that range at
any time in my opinion.

One good thing about Park Avenue Cafe's corkage policy (no corkage if
not on their list) is that they told Jay upfront that a $10/bottle
gratuity for the waitstaff would be appreciated/expected. That's a nice
solution to an issue that can perplex.

Understandings prior to surprises seems like a great business concept.

We had an interesting discussion over why one feels bad for bringing a
corked or otherwise defective wine- afterall, I neither made the
Poyferre nor its cork. My conclusion is simply that one is bringing
gifts to share with one's friends, and wants to contribute. It's not
competition, just doing ones part.

Well, on the one hand, you don't know until the cork is pulled what is
going to be in the bottle--particularly with a 23 year old offering.
But, dare I pick on you and note that you had found the TCA on
decanting at home? Maybe your discussion partners were pointing that
out?

Once again, however, you've made me envious of the opportunities of
good friends, good restaurants and good taste in the Big Apple.

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com

DaleW wrote:

1973 Trimbach Clos Ste. Hune Riesling
The problem with high expectations is there's no upside- or so I
thought. I tried to keep my expectations in check, but no matter what
this wine could meet those expectations! Fragrant petrolly nose, with
layers of rocks, smoke, green apple, and grapefruit. Light but with a
sense of strength, Jay uses the word "perfect" and I find nothing there
to argue with. Revisited towards end of night it was fading a bit, but
still very pleasant. Thanks Bob, this gets a solid A.

I have had several bottles of Clos Ste. Hune Riesling 1973 and a few
remain. All bottles have been outstanding, and it is about as good as a
dry Alsace Riesling gets. And this is not an isolated case. The 1971
and 1976 still are drinking well. Even the 1974 was much better than
one might expect, but it should have been consumed many years ago. But,
for my taste, Trimbach can even top Ste. Hune now and then. For
example, their Cuvee Frederic Emile Selection de Grains Nobles 1989
Riesling is several steps up for me. However this is an entirely
different style of wine more suited for the end of the meal, and
comparing it with the bone dry usual Ste. Hune is really not very fair.

Ed,
you really should visit NYC. Andy Sipowiz (sp?) only sees one side.
Beautiful place to walk around, especially on a crisp sunny March day.

l"Well, on the one hand, you don't know until the cork is pulled what
is
going to be in the bottle--particularly with a 23 year old offering.
But, dare I pick on you and note that you had found the TCA on
decanting at home? Maybe your discussion partners were pointing that
out? "

Well, they were actually puzzled that I felt bad. As to finding it
beforehand, I had thought for a second I got a whiff of TCA when
opening to double-decant, but then it seemed fine in decanter- I
thought it was just a funky cork (lots of crud under capsule). Initial
funk is not unusual in my opinion in older wines. But in retrospect I
should have just gone with the backup bottle.

cheers,

I can't afford CSH, but have loved each one I've tried, young or old.
I've never had a CFE SGN, though a Vendange Tardive ('90? '89?) was
excellent.
Thanks

"DaleW" wrote in news:1142783389.622294.172380
@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

1988 Bollinger R. D. Champagne
Certainly a well-made wine, but further evidence to me that I'm happier
with Champagne young (and in the lighter house styles). This seems
ponderous and heavy to me (for me this is Ab not Fab), and the
oxidative notes detract. C+ from me, but Bollys/Krug fans would rate
higher, this is preference not quality issues.

I think I have had this RD 1988 twice and none of them I thought it was
worth the price. I did not have any chance to drink Grande Annèe from that
year but all the GA vintages I have tasted (1992, 1996, 1997) I enjoyed
them more than any R.D. (of which I have had 1988, 1990 and, I think,
1995).

All that said, I love the Pinot character in Bollinger's wines, but there
are small producers such as Jean Lallement et Fils (Verzenay) that are made
in quite a similar style at a fraction of the price.

S.

DaleW wrote:

1973 Trimbach Clos Ste. Hune Riesling
The problem with high expectations is there's no upside- or so I
thought. I tried to keep my expectations in check, but no matter what
this wine could meet those expectations! Fragrant petrolly nose, with
layers of rocks, smoke, green apple, and grapefruit. Light but with a
sense of strength, Jay uses the word "perfect" and I find nothing there
to argue with. Revisited towards end of night it was fading a bit, but
still very pleasant. Thanks Bob, this gets a solid A.

What, is there no A+ in your grading scale? Hardass!! :P

1995 Lafarge Clos des Chenes Volnay 1er
Tight, hard, and tannic at first. Needs time. Some frantic swirling
eventually coaxes out some black raspberry and cherry fruit. High in
acid, I'd put these away for a long time. For now, B/B+

Given how the '88 is drinking right now, it'll be worth the wait (BTW,
I've still got 5 bottles of the '88 sitting around -- coming to Chitown
anytime in the near future?)


Sometimes I try not to rock the boat. Last night I wished I had. As
they were pouring the Champagne, the waiter suggested the plateau
fruits de mer. I thought about questioning the cost, but didn't, as
several people said that sounded good. It was good- lobster, oysters,
clams, shrimp. But when bill came we basically paid 2-3X what we would
have paid for individual appetizers. My personal vow is to never again
order any special or waiter suggestion without questioning the cost.

I sympathize, Dale. Having internalized the notion that bringing up
price in a fine dining establishment is a tad gauche, I usually refrain
from inquiring about the price of specials and just cross my fingers.
Of course, I also try to frequent establishments that don't try to gouge
their patrons.

We had an interesting discussion over why one feels bad for bringing a
corked or otherwise defective wine- afterall, I neither made the
Poyferre nor its cork. My conclusion is simply that one is bringing
gifts to share with one's friends, and wants to contribute. It's not
competition, just doing ones part.

Yes, I'd say that it's the disappointment of failing to please your
friends that lies at the root of it all. Of course, there's also the
disappointment of failing to please yourself, too. ;-)

Mark Lipton

To extend Mark's remarks, I've had similar experiences. Sometimes with a
large group of diners, someone will suggest the "chef" cook for us and the
chef comes out and makes a suggestion and sometimes its a rather
unadventurous meal and a big tab. Dale & I ate at a place in Brooklyn were
this was done and the meal was great & worth it--although the sticker price
was a shock. Last summer Dick Neidich took me to a place in Charlotte where
we had such a meal and it was great. But if you are concerned with
unanticipated costs, a private word with the waiter may eliminate sticker
shock.

The same with individual items. A bunch of us ordered the fruits de mar in
Annapolis--I think we had some one from DI-Tech.com talk to us after we got
the check.
"Mark Lipton" wrote in message
...
DaleW wrote:

1973 Trimbach Clos Ste. Hune Riesling
The problem with high expectations is there's no upside- or so I
thought. I tried to keep my expectations in check, but no matter what
this wine could meet those expectations! Fragrant petrolly nose, with
layers of rocks, smoke, green apple, and grapefruit. Light but with a
sense of strength, Jay uses the word "perfect" and I find nothing there
to argue with. Revisited towards end of night it was fading a bit, but
still very pleasant. Thanks Bob, this gets a solid A.

What, is there no A+ in your grading scale? Hardass!! :P

1995 Lafarge Clos des Chenes Volnay 1er
Tight, hard, and tannic at first. Needs time. Some frantic swirling
eventually coaxes out some black raspberry and cherry fruit. High in
acid, I'd put these away for a long time. For now, B/B+

Given how the '88 is drinking right now, it'll be worth the wait (BTW,
I've still got 5 bottles of the '88 sitting around -- coming to Chitown
anytime in the near future?)


Sometimes I try not to rock the boat. Last night I wished I had. As
they were pouring the Champagne, the waiter suggested the plateau
fruits de mer. I thought about questioning the cost, but didn't, as
several people said that sounded good. It was good- lobster, oysters,
clams, shrimp. But when bill came we basically paid 2-3X what we would
have paid for individual appetizers. My personal vow is to never again
order any special or waiter suggestion without questioning the cost.

I sympathize, Dale. Having internalized the notion that bringing up
price in a fine dining establishment is a tad gauche, I usually refrain
from inquiring about the price of specials and just cross my fingers.
Of course, I also try to frequent establishments that don't try to gouge
their patrons.

We had an interesting discussion over why one feels bad for bringing a
corked or otherwise defective wine- afterall, I neither made the
Poyferre nor its cork. My conclusion is simply that one is bringing
gifts to share with one's friends, and wants to contribute. It's not
competition, just doing ones part.

Yes, I'd say that it's the disappointment of failing to please your
friends that lies at the root of it all. Of course, there's also the
disappointment of failing to please yourself, too. ;-)

Mark Lipton

1988 Bollinger R. D. Champagne
Certainly a well-made wine, but further evidence to me that I'm happier
with Champagne young (and in the lighter house styles). This seems
ponderous and heavy to me (for me this is Ab not Fab), and the
oxidative notes detract. C+ from me, but Bollys/Krug fans would rate
higher, this is preference not quality issues.

I'm generally a partisan of blanc de blancs Champagnes, but I do also
like pinot-driven ones, just not always as much. I'm definitely a fan
of well-aged Champagnes. Reading your notes, plus the comments on
Robin's board, I don't think your bottle was in great shape. I had the
same wine recently and it was much fresher, though still markedly
evolved.

My experience is that original disgorgements can be amazingly
long-lived and that wines kept on their lees can live that way almost
forever, but that wines that spend a long time on their lees don't last
so well after they are disgorged. Unless there has been a recent round
of releases, the '88 RDs are definitely getting long in the tooth in
terms of time since disgorgement. Do you happen to know when this
bottle was disgorged?

1986 Nikolaihof "Honifogl" Gruner Veltliner
This had softer acidity that I expected, but was really quite nice.
Opened with a green pea/peach nose, became more slate/mineral-driven
with air. My initial impression was I liked more than its brother wine,
a 1986 Nikolaihof Riesling that Jay had previously shared. There's a
little white pepper , too. Revisited at end it was just too warm to see
any evolution, just seemed fat and tired. B+

Even if it's starting to get old, I'm jealous. I've never had a GV
that old. Theise says they live forever. I'd like to test that
belief.

1973 Trimbach Clos Ste. Hune Riesling
The problem with high expectations is there's no upside- or so I
thought. I tried to keep my expectations in check, but no matter what
this wine could meet those expectations! Fragrant petrolly nose, with
layers of rocks, smoke, green apple, and grapefruit. Light but with a
sense of strength, Jay uses the word "perfect" and I find nothing there
to argue with. Revisited towards end of night it was fading a bit, but
still very pleasant. Thanks Bob, this gets a solid A.

Yet again, I'm jealous. I've never had a CSH that old. CSH is
probably my favorite dry riesling I've ever tasted. I'd love a shot at
one that is fully mature. Ah...someday.

2000 Joliet "Clos de la Perrière" (Monopole) Fixin 1er
I was very interested to try this, a producer I had not run across
before.
A little rustic, and quite tight at first. More structured than I
expected. Opened towards end with some wild strawberries. This gets a
B/B- last night, but probably is a better wine than that- last sip was
definitely the best.

I've heard good things about this producer, but never had a chance to
try. Thanks for the note. Even though most of the 2000s I've tried
are pretty forward, I wouldn't be surprised by a bit of structure from
Fixin. I'm always impressed with how well they stand up to Gevrey,
often just losing out in terms of complexity and breed (and being huge
winners on price).

Again. Thanks for the notes.

Jim