I have noticed the temperature rising rather steeply in this group
recently. Is there a case for respecting other people's opinons -
even when they are obviously, pigheadedly, just wrong and also for
expressing our own views with the charity which good wine should
induce?

This used, until quite recently, to be a group which was usually free
from flame-wars, prided itself on being informative and helpful to
those who were new or relatively new to wine, and recognised that the
passion we all share is such an enormous subject that none of us knows
everything (or even very much) so that although we might be passionate
about wine we did not get impassioned with each other.

How about giving up flaming for Lent, or, preferably, even longer?

Sorry - climbed down from the pulpit now: I think I need a drink.

Tim Hartley

Timothy Hartley wrote in
:

I have noticed the temperature rising rather steeply in this group
recently. Is there a case for respecting other people's opinons -
even when they are obviously, pigheadedly, just wrong and also for
expressing our own views with the charity which good wine should
induce?

This used, until quite recently, to be a group which was usually free
from flame-wars, prided itself on being informative and helpful to
those who were new or relatively new to wine, and recognised that the
passion we all share is such an enormous subject that none of us knows
everything (or even very much) so that although we might be passionate
about wine we did not get impassioned with each other.

How about giving up flaming for Lent, or, preferably, even longer?

Sorry - climbed down from the pulpit now: I think I need a drink.

Tim Hartley


Boxers or briefs, etc. But friends we all occassional get the spelling
wrong, and can always blame tupos, err typos, when cornered, but some of
us like different things and get annoyed when others aren't on our
wavelength, let me just say I don't care for Zinfandel, but it is OK if
you do.

Ahh I feel better now.

--
Joseph Coulter
Cruises and Vacations
http://www.josephcoulter.com/

Only if it is sealed with a stelvin :-)


"Joseph Coulter" wrote in message
. 97.136...
Timothy Hartley wrote in
:

I have noticed the temperature rising rather steeply in this group
recently. Is there a case for respecting other people's opinons -
even when they are obviously, pigheadedly, just wrong and also for
expressing our own views with the charity which good wine should
induce?

This used, until quite recently, to be a group which was usually free
from flame-wars, prided itself on being informative and helpful to
those who were new or relatively new to wine, and recognised that the
passion we all share is such an enormous subject that none of us knows
everything (or even very much) so that although we might be passionate
about wine we did not get impassioned with each other.

How about giving up flaming for Lent, or, preferably, even longer?

Sorry - climbed down from the pulpit now: I think I need a drink.

Tim Hartley


Boxers or briefs, etc. But friends we all occassional get the spelling
wrong, and can always blame tupos, err typos, when cornered, but some of
us like different things and get annoyed when others aren't on our
wavelength, let me just say I don't care for Zinfandel, but it is OK if
you do.

Ahh I feel better now.

--
Joseph Coulter
Cruises and Vacations
http://www.josephcoulter.com/

In article ,
says...

I have noticed the temperature rising rather steeply in this group
recently. Is there a case for respecting other people's opinons -
even when they are obviously, pigheadedly, just wrong and also for
expressing our own views with the charity which good wine should
induce?

This used, until quite recently, to be a group which was usually free
from flame-wars, prided itself on being informative and helpful to
those who were new or relatively new to wine, and recognised that the
passion we all share is such an enormous subject that none of us knows
everything (or even very much) so that although we might be passionate
about wine we did not get impassioned with each other.

How about giving up flaming for Lent, or, preferably, even longer?

Sorry - climbed down from the pulpit now: I think I need a drink.

Tim Hartley

Tim,

I see your point. I think one thing that has gotten several people (myself
included) on edge, has been the number of trolls to the group, as of late.
These have taken several forms, from S-Posting to non-wine/food NGs, to
several posts attempting to poke some real "fun" at the subscribers here. I've
noticed similar increases in trolling (all types) in many technical NGs over
the same period, so it might just be the phases of the moon at the moment.

Now, there are a few HOT topics, around which there is much contention. Some
feel very strongly, one way, or the other. So long as the discussion is kept
to the subject, and not to the poster, I see nothing wrong with it.

Now, giving up something for Lent is a prickly subject with me. My wife
suggested that she was going to give up WINE!!!!!! "No Way!" I snapped. I
can't stand to drink alone, and I can't get my roudy wino friends over each
evening. She finally chose to give up SEX, and claims that I probably will not
notice the 40 days... Hm-m-m, I think giving up flaming is far preferable, or
maybe giving up American Idol, or something totally meaningless to me, but
then I'm not Catholic.

Your point is well taken, though.

Hunt

Now, giving up something for Lent is a prickly subject with me.

I give up sacrifice for Lent.

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

In article , teacherjh@aol.
nojunk.com says...

Now, giving up something for Lent is a prickly subject with me.

I give up sacrifice for Lent.

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

That sounds like a livable Lenten pledge.

Hunt

I'm giving up praying for Dick Cheney's victims, in the spirit of interfaith
harmony.
"Hunt" wrote in message
...
In article ,
teacherjh@aol.
nojunk.com says...

Now, giving up something for Lent is a prickly subject with me.

I give up sacrifice for Lent.

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

That sounds like a livable Lenten pledge.

Hunt

"Hunt" skrev i melding
...

Now, giving up something for Lent is a prickly subject with me. ...
...She finally chose to give up SEX,
This foreigner struggles in finding the exact meaning of these sentences...
Anders

"Anders Tørneskog" wrote in
:


"Hunt" skrev i melding
...

Now, giving up something for Lent is a prickly subject with me. ...
...She finally chose to give up SEX,
This foreigner struggles in finding the exact meaning of these
sentences... Anders




The first clause contains what is essentially a pun on the male genital
organ, the prick, but this also means in American slang a tough issue to
discuss, ie it is like dealing with a cactus. So rather than having to
forego wine Hunt is now drinking his favorite wines while waiting ever
so patiently for the end of the Lenten period to resume normal, we
trust, relations with his spouse.

--
Joseph Coulter
Cruises and Vacations
http://www.josephcoulter.com/

"Joseph Coulter" skrev i melding
. 97.136...
The first clause contains what is essentially a pun on the male genital
organ, the prick, but this also means in American slang a tough issue to
discuss, ie it is like dealing with a cactus. So rather than having to
forego wine Hunt is now drinking his favorite wines while waiting ever
so patiently for the end of the Lenten period to resume normal, we
trust, relations with his spouse.

So, it was an intentional pun on his part?
:-)
Anders

"Anders Tørneskog" wrote in news:440f536f$0
:


"Joseph Coulter" skrev i melding
. 97.136...
The first clause contains what is essentially a pun on the male
genital
organ, the prick, but this also means in American slang a tough issue
to
discuss, ie it is like dealing with a cactus. So rather than having
to
forego wine Hunt is now drinking his favorite wines while waiting
ever
so patiently for the end of the Lenten period to resume normal, we
trust, relations with his spouse.

So, it was an intentional pun on his part?
:-)
Anders



I so believe.

--
Joseph Coulter
Cruises and Vacations
http://www.josephcoulter.com/

In article 36,
says...

"Anders Tørneskog" wrote in news:440f536f$0
:


"Joseph Coulter" skrev i melding
. 97.136...
The first clause contains what is essentially a pun on the male
genital
organ, the prick, but this also means in American slang a tough issue
to
discuss, ie it is like dealing with a cactus. So rather than having
to
forego wine Hunt is now drinking his favorite wines while waiting
ever
so patiently for the end of the Lenten period to resume normal, we
trust, relations with his spouse.

So, it was an intentional pun on his part?
:-)
Anders



I so believe.

--
Joseph Coulter
Cruises and Vacations
http://www.josephcoulter.com/

Joseph, you are correct. That said, however, being in Arizona, the home of so
many "prickly" things, it is also appropriate from a flora standpoint. I had
not even caught the double entendre possibility, until Anders questioned the
statement. That is what I get for my "stream of consciousness " writing...

Hunt

Michael Scarpitti wrote .....

I feel, rather strongly, that there is a great deal of bovine excrement
to be found in the world of wine.

I think we are all aware of your thoughts and feeling in this matter
Michael, and to a certain extent, I have no quarrel with your opening
statement.

Where I take issue, is your ongoing crusade, expounding as follows.....


You find rank beginners coming here (and to wine shops) asking about
TASTING, when they should be asking about DRINKING and cooking.
To these brainwashed souls, the next 'step' from absolute beginner
requires 'tasting'. Hogwash. There is NOTHING beyond
drinking wine for the consumer. TASTING is for PROFESSIONAL wine
people, not connesseurs. Even the connesseur is incapable of tasting
anything in a wine that a beginner cannot also taste, in the context of
a meal. The connesseur simply can recognize certain traits that he
likes or dislikes.

If you truly believe that there is nothing beyond merely drinking wine; no
enjoyment; no curiosity as to the vineyard location; the challenges the
grower and winemaker faced; the philosophy of the grower and winemaker; the
challenges that each vintage offered - the subtle differences between the
top vineyard and the lower, then I pity you.

To some of us, merely having a glass of wine or two with a meal is simply
not enough.

It is not a matter of right and wrong!

I am interested in knowing *everything* about what I am drinking.

I am lucky enough to live in a little piece of paradise here in the South
Pacific.

New Zealand now boasts 500 wineries - and I have personally visited over 400
and *tasted* their wines, enjoying the experience.

I have also been fortunate enough to have visited literally dozens of
wineries in such countries as Australia, France, the USA, in Germany and
Italy and South Africa.

It is my intention to visit, in the future Spain and Chile, and return to
France and Germany and Germany - and yes, even the US - again. And dammit,
I want to *taste* their art.

What you keep on expounding is like having an art print on your dining room
wall, but not being curious enough to want to visit the great galleries of
the world, to see the real thing.

Yes, you enjoy your drink with your meal in the moment, but you will never
experience the pride and the passion that the winemaker exudes when you are
standing in the vineyard, *tasting* this years pride and joy; or being in
the company of a winemaker in the cellar, *tasting* a barrel sample of some
exquisite, future release.

In my not so humble opinion, you are wrong when you say that a person, new
to the world of wine can gain nothing from *tasting*.

Standing in the company of others, with varying levels of experience,
sniffing and swilling and *tasting* two or three or ten small samples is an
excellent way of gaining experience, and forming opinions - upon which to
base a buying decision - get it - learning enough to make one's own
decision.

You, yourself, choose only to drink wine with meals - that is fine.

But, suggesting that the drinking of wine without food, or tasting small
samples of wine is somehow wrong, or a waste of time is pure (now what were
the wrds you used?) - pure bovine excrement.

I can think of no greater waste of money, or time - and no greater insult to
the grower or winemaker than to limit the appreciation of their craft.

Each to their own, Michael; each to their own.

--

st.helier

st.helier wrote:
Michael Scarpitti wrote .....

I feel, rather strongly, that there is a great deal of bovine excrement
to be found in the world of wine.

I think we are all aware of your thoughts and feeling in this matter
Michael, and to a certain extent, I have no quarrel with your opening
statement.

Where I take issue, is your ongoing crusade, expounding as follows.....


You find rank beginners coming here (and to wine shops) asking about
TASTING, when they should be asking about DRINKING and cooking.
To these brainwashed souls, the next 'step' from absolute beginner
requires 'tasting'. Hogwash. There is NOTHING beyond
drinking wine for the consumer. TASTING is for PROFESSIONAL wine
people, not connesseurs. Even the connesseur is incapable of tasting
anything in a wine that a beginner cannot also taste, in the context of
a meal. The connesseur simply can recognize certain traits that he
likes or dislikes.

If you truly believe that there is nothing beyond merely drinking wine; no
enjoyment; no curiosity as to the vineyard location; the challenges the
grower and winemaker faced; the philosophy of the grower and winemaker; the
challenges that each vintage offered - the subtle differences between the
top vineyard and the lower, then I pity you.

Where do I say or imply any of this? I am quite curious and read a lot
about wines and their makers. I have numerous wine books. I try lots of
wines, and notice how different makers approach a given grape
(Barnebera, for instance). My complaint is solely about TASTING, which
takes the wine out of its intended context, which is the accompaniment
to a meal. To me, this is the height of idiocy. It's like wanting to
remove all the other instruments playing Beethoven's 5th just listen to
a single violin. Maybe theconductor would need to do that, but not the
audience. That violin was intended to be heard in context with other
instruments.

To some of us, merely having a glass of wine or two with a meal is simply
not enough.

Why isn't it? It SHOULD be!


It is not a matter of right and wrong!

I am interested in knowing *everything* about what I am drinking.

I am curious too, but I don't let it get in the way. Do you know about
the problem of floral abortion in Grignolino? Have you ever drunk a
well-made Grignolino (Giacosa, for instance)? It's a marvelous wine,
easily among the best in the world, but the wine 'experts' ignore it or
call it trash. As a result, it's all but impossoble to get it in the
US, because snivelling wine-tasting experts like Parker look down their
noses at it.


I am lucky enough to live in a little piece of paradise here in the South
Pacific.

New Zealand now boasts 500 wineries - and I have personally visited over 400
and *tasted* their wines, enjoying the experience.

I have also been fortunate enough to have visited literally dozens of
wineries in such countries as Australia, France, the USA, in Germany and
Italy and South Africa.

It is my intention to visit, in the future Spain and Chile, and return to
France and Germany and Germany - and yes, even the US - again. And dammit,
I want to *taste* their art.

What you keep on expounding is like having an art print on your dining room
wall, but not being curious enough to want to visit the great galleries of
the world, to see the real thing.

Yes, you enjoy your drink with your meal in the moment, but you will never
experience the pride and the passion that the winemaker exudes when you are
standing in the vineyard, *tasting* this years pride and joy; or being in
the company of a winemaker in the cellar, *tasting* a barrel sample of some
exquisite, future release.

In my not so humble opinion, you are wrong when you say that a person, new
to the world of wine can gain nothing from *tasting*.

No. He gains nothing. He's fooling himself.


Standing in the company of others, with varying levels of experience,
sniffing and swilling and *tasting* two or three or ten small samples is an
excellent way of gaining experience, and forming opinions - upon which to
base a buying decision - get it - learning enough to make one's own
decision.

You, yourself, choose only to drink wine with meals - that is fine.

I drink many fine wines. Just had some Valtellina last month. Hard to
get here in Ohio, but it was magnificant!

But, suggesting that the drinking of wine without food, or tasting small
samples of wine is somehow wrong, or a waste of time is pure (now what were
the wrds you used?) - pure bovine excrement.

I can think of no greater waste of money, or time - and no greater insult to
the grower or winemaker than to limit the appreciation of their craft.

No: it is an insult to the winemaker to take his product and use it
outside of its intended context.


Each to their own, Michael; each to their own.

'His' own.

--

st.helier

wrote ..............

I can think of no greater waste of money, or time - and no greater insult
to the grower or winemaker than to limit the appreciation of their craft.

No: it is an insult to the winemaker to take his product and use it
outside of its intended context.


You know, I have spoken to dozens of winemakers, yes, literally dozens all
around the world.

And not one has *ever* told me that the sole intent of their craft was to
create wines which MUST be consumed with food.

NOT ONE !

In fact, only one person has ever made this observation - you!

Why do you think that would be?

--

st.h