I thought I'd bring up something about cooking with wine that's been
eating me for some time now.

I have noticed that even light white wines which are very suitable for
drinking were adding disagreeable flavors to my cooking which I was
able to reduce by adding less wine (1/2 cup instead of 1) and cook at a
simmer instead of a boil. But anyway I do it, it seems that cooking
wine seems to make it taste ... cooked (something like what happens
when you drink a wine which was open too long)

Everyone says cook with wine. I'd like to start a discussion which
talks about the how wine can detract from food. Any bites?

Meryl

Meryl wrote:
I thought I'd bring up something about cooking with wine that's been
eating me for some time now.

I have noticed that even light white wines which are very suitable for
drinking were adding disagreeable flavors to my cooking which I was
able to reduce by adding less wine (1/2 cup instead of 1) and cook at a
simmer instead of a boil. But anyway I do it, it seems that cooking
wine seems to make it taste ... cooked (something like what happens
when you drink a wine which was open too long)

Everyone says cook with wine. I'd like to start a discussion which
talks about the how wine can detract from food. Any bites?

First, there are several types of cooking with wine. Wine may be used
as part of the liquid to cook shellfish for example. Here you would
want a high acidity white wine. Strong flavors and sweetness might
detract. The wine serves much the same function as adding lemon to the
cooking liquid. Then there are dishes that are finished with a splash
of wine at the end, perhaps a sherry or other fortified wine. Here one
is wanting a moderate taste of the wine in the dish, so the wine is
added at the last minute without boiling so that the taste of the wine
is not changed. Boiling the dish will cause loss of the desired wine
flavors and possibly development of flavors you do not like. Then
there are meat dishes cooked in red wine. Here you have to be careful
not to choose a red that is too tannic or that has too much acid. If
the liquid is greatly reduced for making a sauce at the end, this can
become very important, and also a cheap red that has some sweetness can
make the sauce too sweet. You just have to experiment with the type of
wine used for long cooking. What is best for drinking many not be best
for a long-cooked dish.

Are you talking about "cooking wine" labeled as such off the shelf at a
supermarket or are you talking about a normal wine such as you by at a wine
shop?
wrote in message
oups.com...

Meryl wrote:
I thought I'd bring up something about cooking with wine that's been
eating me for some time now.

I have noticed that even light white wines which are very suitable for
drinking were adding disagreeable flavors to my cooking which I was
able to reduce by adding less wine (1/2 cup instead of 1) and cook at a
simmer instead of a boil. But anyway I do it, it seems that cooking
wine seems to make it taste ... cooked (something like what happens
when you drink a wine which was open too long)

Everyone says cook with wine. I'd like to start a discussion which
talks about the how wine can detract from food. Any bites?

First, there are several types of cooking with wine. Wine may be used
as part of the liquid to cook shellfish for example. Here you would
want a high acidity white wine. Strong flavors and sweetness might
detract. The wine serves much the same function as adding lemon to the
cooking liquid. Then there are dishes that are finished with a splash
of wine at the end, perhaps a sherry or other fortified wine. Here one
is wanting a moderate taste of the wine in the dish, so the wine is
added at the last minute without boiling so that the taste of the wine
is not changed. Boiling the dish will cause loss of the desired wine
flavors and possibly development of flavors you do not like. Then
there are meat dishes cooked in red wine. Here you have to be careful
not to choose a red that is too tannic or that has too much acid. If
the liquid is greatly reduced for making a sauce at the end, this can
become very important, and also a cheap red that has some sweetness can
make the sauce too sweet. You just have to experiment with the type of
wine used for long cooking. What is best for drinking many not be best
for a long-cooked dish.

Stavo dormendo su un bancale di lambro quando il post di Meryl mi
desto'

I thought I'd bring up something about cooking with wine that's been
eating me for some time now.

My 2 cents: I used to marinate meat for grill in a nigth-long red wine
bath, and it worked well, expecially if the wine was tannic. Then
someone told me to try beer, and it worked too, so I guessed it was
the acidity of the beer.
Weee, then again I thougth: why not lambrusco? A good grasparossa has
enough tannins to match the el-cheapo reds I used to marinate in, and
also enough CO2 to beat any beer. Moreover, it has it's own marked
acidity, so I tried it out and the results are always more than good:
tender meat, even easier to cook, and damn tasty!
--
Vilco
Think pink, drink rose'

Vilco wrote:

My 2 cents: I used to marinate meat for grill in a nigth-long red wine
bath, and it worked well, expecially if the wine was tannic. Then
someone told me to try beer, and it worked too, so I guessed it was
the acidity of the beer.
Weee, then again I thougth: why not lambrusco? A good grasparossa has
enough tannins to match the el-cheapo reds I used to marinate in, and
also enough CO2 to beat any beer. Moreover, it has it's own marked
acidity, so I tried it out and the results are always more than good:
tender meat, even easier to cook, and damn tasty!

Hooray!! Finally, a use for sparkling Lambrusco (a wine that provided
me with one of the worst vinous experiences of my life). Three cheers
for Vilco! ;-)

Mark Lipton

On 14 Nov 2005 08:32:18 -0800, "
wrote:


Boiling the dish will cause loss of the desired wine
flavors and possibly development of flavors you do not like. Then
there are meat dishes cooked in red wine.

You are likely right on the money as far as boiling. I made the
mistake of adding a white wine to a soup once and the result was off
flavors.

Conversely, I have seldom have a bad result deglazing with wine (and
the bad results have likely been the product of my burning the solid
bits on the pan).

--
=================================================
Do you like wine? Do you live in South Florida?
Visit the MIAMI WINE TASTERS group at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/miamiWINE
=================================================

"Vilco" wrote in message
...
My 2 cents: I used to marinate meat for grill in a nigth-long red wine
bath, and it worked well, expecially if the wine was tannic. Then
someone told me to try beer, and it worked too, so I guessed it was
the acidity of the beer.
Weee, then again I thougth: why not lambrusco? A good grasparossa has
enough tannins to match the el-cheapo reds I used to marinate in, and
also enough CO2 to beat any beer. Moreover, it has it's own marked
acidity, so I tried it out and the results are always more than good:
tender meat, even easier to cook, and damn tasty!

OK, I gotta try that! That info jibes with a recipe suggestion I ran across
recently for using white Zin in the preparation of Bolognese sauce. Thanks,
Vilco.

Tom S
www.chateauburbank.com

Mi e' parso che Mark Lipton abbia scritto:

Hooray!! Finally, a use for sparkling Lambrusco (a wine
that provided me with one of the worst vinous experiences
of my life). Three cheers for Vilco! ;-)

You like to risk your life, man
You probably tried the traditional ones, and probably they were
from a famigerated producer in my county, who's now moving to
higher quality standards: Cantine Riunite. They have always sold
whole freighters of lambrusco overseas and to inland europe (they
have been in some years the biggest italian wine exporters) and
theyr quality has always been low. Now they've changed many
things, and some of theyr wines are decent-to-good lambrusco:
these are the three "cuvee' dei fondatori" and the "ottocento".

As Mike says in his post, there is also a new trend in lambrusco:
no more sparkling young wines but structured, ageworthy wines who
can stand a pair of years in casks and barriques and some more
years in the bottle. The king of these wines is Moro del Moro, by
Cantine Moro in Calerno di Sant'Ilario (Reggio Emilia): the wine
guide of the famous italian newspaper "L'Espresso" gives it an
outstanding 18 points for the 2000, and many other wine guides
rate it almost at the top. It's obtained from grapes of Pjcol
Ross and Ancellotta, both lambrusco varieties, the former being a
forgotten one who's been re-discovered in the 80's by another
producer ("Tanuta La Piccola", Montecchio Emilia, Reggio Emilia).
A cherrish fruity nose where intensity exalts elegance, a round
and pleasant mouth with few tannins and a good acidity after 2
years of wood and 3 in the bottle, closing with a long, fine,
sweet final.
If you can put your hands on a bottle of Moro del Moro, don't
wait!
BTW - It's priced around 15 euros here in the area, and usually
you find it in the restaurants for 20 to 25 euros.

Try it out, and forget the worst vinous experience of your life

--
Vilco
Think Pink , Drink Rose'

Mi e' parso che Mike Tommasi abbia scritto:

If you ever get to meet Vilco, he will introduce you to
things that you would never think of as Lambrusco. Things
like dark intense tannic wines (Il Moro was it?).

Yep: Moro del Moro. The first time I brougth it at a gethering it
was in Chiavari, at Francone's, and was the 1998 with a 60%
Pinot-Noir. Then they stopped using Pinot-noir and it became a
full Lambrusco.

He also swears by balsamic vinegar from Reggio (the bottle is
not quite like the Modena one).

Yes, and the three quality colors used in Reggio differ from
those used in Modena: they are (from best to lesser) Oro, Argento
and Aragosta, which translate into "Gold", "Silver" and
"Lobster".

And he will make you taste 60 month old (P.)-Reggiano like you
never tasted before...

LOL, i had to drive 200km to Piedmont to find a 60 months old
PR-RE
At least now I have the name of the producer: "Casello di
Collecchio", 30 kilometers from here. As soon as my first X.O.
Parmigiano craving arises, I'll be driving there.

Two weekends ago we met with a bunch of IHV people near
Parma, sure enough we started with L********... ;-)

And it was a nice one, too: "Otello" from Cantine Ceci, Parma.
--
Vilco
Think Pink , Drink Rose'

I'm glad you mentioned

"Boiling the dish will cause loss of the desired wine
flavors and possibly development of flavors you do not like"

This has certainly been my experience, so I try to cook low heat and
short time (but at least 15 mins if possible). I didn't mention it but
the red wines are worse. The though of concentrating tannins through
reduction isn't a nice one but I think its more. I think possibly their
are other substances which are changed by the heat. I'm actualy afraid
to cook with more than al little red wine (less than 1/2 cup) for
sauces.


wrote:
Meryl wrote:
I thought I'd bring up something about cooking with wine that's been
eating me for some time now.

I have noticed that even light white wines which are very suitable for
drinking were adding disagreeable flavors to my cooking which I was
able to reduce by adding less wine (1/2 cup instead of 1) and cook at a
simmer instead of a boil. But anyway I do it, it seems that cooking
wine seems to make it taste ... cooked (something like what happens
when you drink a wine which was open too long)

Everyone says cook with wine. I'd like to start a discussion which
talks about the how wine can detract from food. Any bites?

First, there are several types of cooking with wine. Wine may be used
as part of the liquid to cook shellfish for example. Here you would
want a high acidity white wine. Strong flavors and sweetness might
detract. The wine serves much the same function as adding lemon to the
cooking liquid. Then there are dishes that are finished with a splash
of wine at the end, perhaps a sherry or other fortified wine. Here one
is wanting a moderate taste of the wine in the dish, so the wine is
added at the last minute without boiling so that the taste of the wine
is not changed. Boiling the dish will cause loss of the desired wine
flavors and possibly development of flavors you do not like. Then
there are meat dishes cooked in red wine. Here you have to be careful
not to choose a red that is too tannic or that has too much acid. If
the liquid is greatly reduced for making a sauce at the end, this can
become very important, and also a cheap red that has some sweetness can
make the sauce too sweet. You just have to experiment with the type of
wine used for long cooking. What is best for drinking many not be best
for a long-cooked dish.

I'm talking about descent 'cooking wines' you'd also drink. Not from
the supermaket!

Meryl

Leo,

I started deglazing with water instead since this is what I thought the
high heat (and long cooking) were the two culprits. But I'm not sure.
How much do you deglaze with?

Leo Bueno wrote:
On 14 Nov 2005 08:32:18 -0800, "
wrote:


Boiling the dish will cause loss of the desired wine
flavors and possibly development of flavors you do not like. Then
there are meat dishes cooked in red wine.

You are likely right on the money as far as boiling. I made the
mistake of adding a white wine to a soup once and the result was off
flavors.

Conversely, I have seldom have a bad result deglazing with wine (and
the bad results have likely been the product of my burning the solid
bits on the pan).

--
=================================================
Do you like wine? Do you live in South Florida?
Visit the MIAMI WINE TASTERS group at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/miamiWINE
=================================================

Vilco wrote:

You like to risk your life, man
You probably tried the traditional ones, and probably they were
from a famigerated producer in my county, who's now moving to
higher quality standards: Cantine Riunite. They have always sold
whole freighters of lambrusco overseas and to inland europe (they
have been in some years the biggest italian wine exporters) and
theyr quality has always been low. Now they've changed many
things, and some of theyr wines are decent-to-good lambrusco:
these are the three "cuvee' dei fondatori" and the "ottocento".

It wasn't Riunite, but I can't tell you what it was. The situation was
this: in Roma in '83, my traveling companion went to the market to buy
some wine. There he tasted a red wine that he liked a lot and bought a
bottle. He brings it back to the train (we were traveling to the North
that day), unwraps it and finds that the merchant had "substituted" this
bottle of sparkling Lambrusco. Ick!!! It was truly awful, no doubt
explaining the "unusual" marketing technique. At least we kept our
wallets during that trip ;-)


As Mike says in his post, there is also a new trend in lambrusco:
no more sparkling young wines but structured, ageworthy wines who
can stand a pair of years in casks and barriques and some more
years in the bottle. The king of these wines is Moro del Moro, by
Cantine Moro in Calerno di Sant'Ilario (Reggio Emilia): the wine
guide of the famous italian newspaper "L'Espresso" gives it an
outstanding 18 points for the 2000, and many other wine guides
rate it almost at the top. It's obtained from grapes of Pjcol
Ross and Ancellotta, both lambrusco varieties, the former being a
forgotten one who's been re-discovered in the 80's by another
producer ("Tanuta La Piccola", Montecchio Emilia, Reggio Emilia).
A cherrish fruity nose where intensity exalts elegance, a round
and pleasant mouth with few tannins and a good acidity after 2
years of wood and 3 in the bottle, closing with a long, fine,
sweet final.
If you can put your hands on a bottle of Moro del Moro, don't
wait!
BTW - It's priced around 15 euros here in the area, and usually
you find it in the restaurants for 20 to 25 euros.

Try it out, and forget the worst vinous experience of your life


Thanks very much for the information, Vilco. It is now archived for
later reference.

Mark Lipton

Mike Tommasi wrote:
Mark Lipton wrote:


Thanks very much for the information, Vilco. It is now archived for
later reference.


For a picture of AFW posters Vilco and Luk, see third last photo from
the bottom:

http://www.thewineblog.net/vin/archi...ons_.html#more


Also visible are Walter De Battè, the grand master of Sciacchetrà wine,
and Angiolino Maule, author of some of the best wines from the Veneto.
Also, occasional AFW poster Francis Boulard, mister Champagne.

Photos all taken with a Nokia cell phone... sorry.


Sehr interessant, Mike. For some reason, I'd always pictured f6 as
more... elfin, based on his Usenet persona. pretty good resolution for
a phone ;-)

Mark Lipton

I have never paid attention to the amount of white wine I use; it has
not been a problem.

Sometimes I have used a big red wine and gotten inconsistent results,
so need to look closely into whether there is a difference between
whites and reds. So, let's focus on whites.

The problem seems not to be in the wine but in the heat and the pan
solids *before* deglazing; if you burn the solids, no amount of
deglazing will bring them back. Chicken breast seems to be easy to
burn. Sometimes I will strain the sauce to get rid of any solids,
which may include burt bits.

I add liberal amounts of wine to the pan. I know that once the
water-alcohol azeotrope starts boiling off, the temperature will be
stable, so I crank up the heat to speed up boiling.

When it gets to a volume close to what I want (with sufficient liquid
on the pan to avoid boiling off all of it), I bring the temperature
down a bit to give me some time and then add some butter or dissolved
starch to thicken (come to think of it, I may add the starch during
the big boiling phase).

These technique works for me. However, we better let the pros in the
group chime in.


On 15 Nov 2005 05:13:30 -0800, "Meryl" wrote:

Leo,

I started deglazing with water instead since this is what I thought the
high heat (and long cooking) were the two culprits. But I'm not sure.
How much do you deglaze with?

Leo Bueno wrote:
On 14 Nov 2005 08:32:18 -0800, "
wrote:


Boiling the dish will cause loss of the desired wine
flavors and possibly development of flavors you do not like. Then
there are meat dishes cooked in red wine.

You are likely right on the money as far as boiling. I made the
mistake of adding a white wine to a soup once and the result was off
flavors.

Conversely, I have seldom have a bad result deglazing with wine (and
the bad results have likely been the product of my burning the solid
bits on the pan).

--
=================================================
Do you like wine? Do you live in South Florida?
Visit the MIAMI WINE TASTERS group at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/miamiWINE
=================================================

--
=================================================
Do you like wine? Do you live in South Florida?
Visit the MIAMI WINE TASTERS group at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/miamiWINE
=================================================