Wonder if the following is true:
1) Chardonnay has little characters of its own and has to depend on foreign
elements like oak cask.
2) The typical aromas like butterscotch, nuts, toasted bread, vanilla come
not from the grapes but the various types of wood the wine is aged.
3) There are more than a thousand different aromas of Chardonnay available.
4) The variety is preferred by winemakers and growers alike because it is
not climate fussy and will succumb to any vintner's tricks and blending.
Ray

"Raymond" wrote in
:

Wonder if the following is true:
1) Chardonnay has little characters of its own and has to depend on
foreign elements like oak cask.
No
2) The typical aromas like butterscotch, nuts, toasted bread, vanilla
come not from the grapes but the various types of wood the wine is
aged.
Yes and no
3) There are more than a thousand different aromas of Chardonnay
available.
probably
4) The variety is preferred by winemakers and growers alike
because it is not climate fussy and will succumb to any vintner's
tricks and blending.
NO, try growing Chardonnay in Florida
This is my last response to you as I suspect your motives with two very
intriguing but not very informed/informative posts in as many hours
--
Joseph Coulter
Cruises and Vacations
http://www.josephcoulter.com/

Raymond wrote:
Wonder if the following is true:
1) Chardonnay has little characters of its own and has to depend on foreign
elements like oak cask.

Untrue. The Chardonnay grape usually shows a flavor profile of lemons,
green apples, pineapple and/or other tropical fruits. It is generally
regarded as one of the two great white grapes (with Riesling). For a
good introduction to the flavors of the grape, try Chablis (usually aged
in old oak that doesn't impart much flavor to the wine) where you will
also often find a flavor reminiscent of stones.

2) The typical aromas like butterscotch, nuts, toasted bread, vanilla come
not from the grapes but the various types of wood the wine is aged.

Butterscotch, vanilla and toast most definitely (though toasty flavors
can also arise from aging on the wine's lees). Nutty flavors usually
arise from aging white wines, and I've found nutty flavors in wines that
never saw any oak.

3) There are more than a thousand different aromas of Chardonnay available.

That's probably true for any wine grape.

4) The variety is preferred by winemakers and growers alike because it is
not climate fussy and will succumb to any vintner's tricks and blending.

Chardonnay is certainly far easier to grow than e.g. Pinot Noir, but to
get top quality Chardonnay you need particular types of soil and a cool
climate. As Mr. Coulter states, try to find a good Florida Chardonnay
;-) It is popular in part because it does make very good wine and it
does withstand a lot of manipulation in the cellar.

HTH
Mark Lipton

In ,
Raymond typed:

Wonder if the following is true:

1) Chardonnay has little characters of its own and has to
depend on
foreign elements like oak cask.


False.



2) The typical aromas like butterscotch, nuts, toasted bread,
vanilla
come not from the grapes but the various types of wood the wine
is
aged.


Some aromas come from the grape, some from the wood, and some
from vinification techniques like malolactic fermentation.


3) There are more than a thousand different aromas of
Chardonnay available.


I've never counted.



4) The variety is preferred by winemakers and
growers alike because it is not climate fussy and will succumb
to any
vintner's tricks and blending. Ray


False.

--
Ken Blake
Please reply to the newsgroup

Could it be because poor winemakers, sometimes with indifferent or
equally poor terroir, try to mask their lack of skill by turning it
into oak juice because even they know it will never be wine?
Fortunately this seems now to be a dying fashion and people are
beginning, I think, to appreciate that well grown and made wine from
Chardonnay and good ground does not need to be over oaked — viz. good
Corton Charlemagne, , Meursault, Chablis and Pouilly-Fuisse and the
like, to name but a few. There are also some very good Vin de Pays
which are Chardonnay but do not rely on oak to give them their only
aromas and flavour.
Blanc de Blancs Champagne has never fallen for this folly so why did
others have to do so?

Timothy Hartley

Thanks for your reply guys.
Timothy got the facts right.
Majority of Chars have been dosed except some of the outstanding ones from
Burgundy.
The variety being so popular around the World partly because it responds
very well to winemakers' manipulation, much better than say Riesling or Sav.
Blanc.
Apparently, there are more shoddy Chars made than other white varieties.
Evidently, people are turning towards unwooded Chars for original taste and
terroir.
Ray


"Timothy Hartley" wrote in message
...
Could it be because poor winemakers, sometimes with indifferent or
equally poor terroir, try to mask their lack of skill by turning it
into oak juice because even they know it will never be wine?
Fortunately this seems now to be a dying fashion and people are
beginning, I think, to appreciate that well grown and made wine from
Chardonnay and good ground does not need to be over oaked - viz. good
Corton Charlemagne, , Meursault, Chablis and Pouilly-Fuisse and the
like, to name but a few. There are also some very good Vin de Pays
which are Chardonnay but do not rely on oak to give them their only
aromas and flavour.
Blanc de Blancs Champagne has never fallen for this folly so why did
others have to do so?

Timothy Hartley

"Raymond" wrote in
:



Apparently, there are more shoddy Chars made than other white
varieties.

I wouldn't be so sure about that perhaps there are more
liters/litres/gallons/barrels of chardonnay, but there are percentage
wise a lot of fairly poor pinot grigots out there. One needs a good map
to get around to the treasures in almost any varietal.


--
Joseph Coulter
Cruises and Vacations
http://www.josephcoulter.com/

Timothy (and Mark et al),
good points. One thing that needs to be emphasized is " well grown and
made wine from Chardonnay and good ground does not need to be over
oaked."

"Over" being the operative word. While I am a huge fan of some
Chardonnays that see no oak (say Louis Michel's Chablises) or little or
no new oak (Brun Beaujolais), I am also a fan of some white Burgundies
that see plenty of oak - a category that includes pretty much every top
1er or GC. And for that matter I've quite enjoyed some rather oaky
Californians (Kistler and Peter Michael).

Overoaking- especially of weaker juice- is a problem, but no oak is not
the only answer.

"Raymond" wrote in message
...

I deliberately refrained from responding to this post immediately. Those
here who know me are aware that I regard Chardonnay as the indisputable
Queen of [white] grapes.

Wonder if the following is true:
1) Chardonnay has little characters of its own and has to depend on
foreign
elements like oak cask.

False. Although I'm not a big fan of unoaked Chardonnay, I occasionally
indulge in the guilty pleasure of a nice Chablis. The good ones certainly
have fruit - not to mention a sort of stony minerality. None of that comes
from oak, because Chablis is usually not oaked.

Furthermore, I've found that one of the best times to taste barrel fermented
Chardonnay is before it has gone dry. At that time, it has only seen a week
or two's worth of oak; nothing significant from the quercus at that time -
but the fruit flavors are lovely to behold.

2) The typical aromas like butterscotch, nuts, toasted bread, vanilla come
not from the grapes but the various types of wood the wine is aged.

Partially true. Some of that comes from the wood, but a lot comes from the
fruit and the lees. The toasted bread is definitely a lees contribution.

3) There are more than a thousand different aromas of Chardonnay
available.

Wait a minute! I thought your point was that Chardonnay doesn't really have
much character of its own. You seem to be contradicting yourself.

4) The variety is preferred by winemakers and growers alike because it is
not climate fussy and will succumb to any vintner's tricks and blending.

That's a compound statement, and it requires two responses.

Although Chardonnay will grow in a variety of climates, it only produces
really good wine quality fruit in cool climates. Santa Barbara County,
Russian River, Carneros and Monterey for example in California. Forget
Temecula, Central Valley, Paso Robles and even most of Napa. It's simply
too hot there.

As for the second part, it is true that Chardonnay is a winemaker's grape
because it can be made in so many different styles. Without getting into
blending, one can take the same fruit and either gently whole cluster press
and tank ferment - or crush, cold soak, press hard and barrel ferment and
age on the lees. These radically different approaches will result in wines
that are each very good in their own ways, but they will surely be vastly
different.

Think of it this way:

Making Chardonnay is like carving balsa wood. The carver pretty much
dictates the direction the blade goes.

Making red wines is more like carving hardwood. The carver has _some_
influence over the path of the blade, but he is much more strongly
constrained by the grain of the wood than if he were carving balsa wood.

Tom S

In article ,
Tom S wrote:

Although Chardonnay will grow in a variety of climates, it only produces
really good wine quality fruit in cool climates. Santa Barbara County,
Russian River, Carneros and Monterey for example in California. Forget
Temecula, Central Valley, Paso Robles and even most of Napa. It's simply
too hot there.


You missed Anderson Valley, but I take issue with Paso Robles being too
hot. Some good chardonnay comes from the Westside.


Dimitri

"D. Gerasimatos" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Tom S wrote:

Although Chardonnay will grow in a variety of climates, it only produces
really good wine quality fruit in cool climates. Santa Barbara County,
Russian River, Carneros and Monterey for example in California. Forget
Temecula, Central Valley, Paso Robles and even most of Napa. It's simply
too hot there.


You missed Anderson Valley, but I take issue with Paso Robles being too
hot. Some good chardonnay comes from the Westside.

Isn't Anderson Valley in Mendocino County? I didn't mean to disparage by
omission, but the truth is I've never been that far North in California, so
I can't speak to that.

As for Westside Paso Chardonnay, I'm sure there are small patches of "sweet
spots" that are appropriately cool enough for Burgundian varietals. I had a
nice Pinot Noir a month or two ago from such a place in Paso (forgot the
name though :^( ). I've also heard of niches in the Central Valley
that have climate that's good for wine grapes. These are exceptions,
however. I was speaking in a more general way.

Tom S

"Tom S" in :

"D. Gerasimatos" in :
Tom S wrote:

Although Chardonnay will grow in a variety of climates, it only produces
really good wine quality fruit in cool climates. ...

You missed Anderson Valley

Isn't Anderson Valley in Mendocino County? I didn't mean to disparage by
omission, but the truth is I've never been that far North in California,
so I can't speak to that.

Southern Mendocino County. It's near the border with Sonoma. (I was nearby
recently.) Actually, much of California is further north still.

Max Hauser wrote:
"Tom S" in :
Isn't Anderson Valley in Mendocino County? I didn't mean to disparage by
omission, but the truth is I've never been that far North in California,
so I can't speak to that.


Southern Mendocino County. It's near the border with Sonoma. (I was nearby
recently.) Actually, much of California is further north still.



Not _that_ close to the border, Max. From Gualala (which is at the
border on the coast) it's about 90 minutes' drive to Philo in the heart
of Anderson Valley's wine country. Of course, your point about the
amount of CA north of there is spot on. Several of my friends up there
take issue with the notion that the Bay Area is in No. Cal. at all.

Mark Lipton

"Mark Lipton" in news:qVdAe.143205$x96.111303@attbi_s72:

Southern Mendocino County. [Anderson Valley is] near the
border with Sonoma. (I was nearby recently.)

Not _that_ close to the border, Max. From Gualala (which is
at the border on the coast) it's about 90 minutes' drive to Philo
in the heart of Anderson Valley's wine country.

My dear professor Lipton, it depends on perspective. (As usual.) You chose
one that maximizes the apparent separation. (Gualala also has no direct
major road into the valley, affecting the driving time.) I too might
despair of the distance, in 90 minutes.

My point is much more obvious, even by car, from the east, from Highway 101.
There, access to the Anderson Valley begins as highway 128 at Cloverdale,
within Sonoma County. (Incidentally the county border is further north
there also.) Traversing northwest through the picturesque low hills that
lead from 101 to the Anderson Valley, one passes almost immediately into
southern Mendocino County. That county also is relatively long in the
north-south direction (bordered at the northern extreme by Humboldt and
Trinity). Boonville, the heart of the Anderson Valley (and near Philo), is
about 15% into Mendocino County's north-south extent (by Gousha). Quod erat
demonstrandum.

A very agreeable place to visit, irrespective of location.

In article ,
Tom S wrote:

As for Westside Paso Chardonnay, I'm sure there are small patches of "sweet
spots" that are appropriately cool enough for Burgundian varietals. I had a
nice Pinot Noir a month or two ago from such a place in Paso (forgot the
name though :^( ). I've also heard of niches in the Central Valley
that have climate that's good for wine grapes. These are exceptions,
however. I was speaking in a more general way.


I have never had a pinot noir from Paso Robles that I liked. However,
chardonnay seems to do well. One of my favorite chardonnays from anywhere
is Tablas Creek's "Antithesis". The hills on the Westside don't get as
hot as the lowlands of Paso Robles and the soils are mostly limestone.
I wouldn't say Paso Robles is ideal for chardonnay, but certainly one can
make a very nice chardonnay from the region.


Dimitri