Are they a sign of a poor wine?
I find them unpleasant, and wasteful if you have
to leave some in the bottle to avoid them.


Interested

In article , says...

Are they a sign of a poor wine?
I find them unpleasant, and wasteful if you have
to leave some in the bottle to avoid them.


Interested

They are not a sign of bad wine, nor are they necessarily a sign of good wine.
They, the lees/sediment are, in short, a natural percipitating out of solids
in the wine.

Yes, it can be disconcerting to have to leave some wine in the bottle to keep
the sediment from being poured into the glass, but that is just the way it is.
Careful decanting goes a long way toward getting the most wine separated from
the lees. And, yes, the sediment is not very pleasant, usually quite bitter.

They are one of the reasons that the bottles of wine, likely to throw
sediment, are shaped as they are, with sharp shoulders. Wines, like Pinot
Noir, are more often packaged into bottles with sloping shoulders, as they are
less likely to throw sediment. Still, when pouring a PN, especially an older
one, or a heavily extracted one from the US, it is wise to watch the wine
being poured, so no sediment passes from the bottle.

Hunt

Hunt wrote:
In article , says...

Are they a sign of a poor wine?
I find them unpleasant, and wasteful if you have
to leave some in the bottle to avoid them.


Interested

They are not a sign of bad wine, nor are they necessarily a sign of good wine.
They, the lees/sediment are, in short, a natural percipitating out of solids
in the wine.

Yes, it can be disconcerting to have to leave some wine in the bottle to keep
the sediment from being poured into the glass, but that is just the way it is.
Careful decanting goes a long way toward getting the most wine separated from
the lees. And, yes, the sediment is not very pleasant, usually quite bitter.

They are one of the reasons that the bottles of wine, likely to throw
sediment, are shaped as they are, with sharp shoulders. Wines, like Pinot
Noir, are more often packaged into bottles with sloping shoulders, as they are
less likely to throw sediment. Still, when pouring a PN, especially an older
one, or a heavily extracted one from the US, it is wise to watch the wine
being poured, so no sediment passes from the bottle.

Hunt

The "sediment" may also be precipitated tartrate crystals, which
usually look like fine sand or sugar in the bottle. This is a harmless
condition that does not in itself affect the flavor or quality of the
wine, although it can be unpleasant to swallow it unawares. As above,
calls for decanting or careful pouring.

Andy

Hunt wrote:
In article , says...

Are they a sign of a poor wine?
I find them unpleasant, and wasteful if you have
to leave some in the bottle to avoid them.


Interested

They are not a sign of bad wine, nor are they necessarily a sign of good wine.
They, the lees/sediment are, in short, a natural percipitating out of solids
in the wine.

Yes, it can be disconcerting to have to leave some wine in the bottle to keep
the sediment from being poured into the glass, but that is just the way it is.
Careful decanting goes a long way toward getting the most wine separated from
the lees. And, yes, the sediment is not very pleasant, usually quite bitter.

They are one of the reasons that the bottles of wine, likely to throw
sediment, are shaped as they are, with sharp shoulders. Wines, like Pinot
Noir, are more often packaged into bottles with sloping shoulders, as they are
less likely to throw sediment. Still, when pouring a PN, especially an older
one, or a heavily extracted one from the US, it is wise to watch the wine
being poured, so no sediment passes from the bottle.

Hunt

A few people will actually look for sediment. It's a sign that the wine
was not "fined" which is sometimes done with egg whites. Vegans don't
want this.

Dan-O

In article .com, at@2walla
..com says...

Hunt wrote:
In article , says
....

Are they a sign of a poor wine?
I find them unpleasant, and wasteful if you have
to leave some in the bottle to avoid them.


Interested

They are not a sign of bad wine, nor are they necessarily a sign of good
wine.
They, the lees/sediment are, in short, a natural percipitating out of
solids
in the wine.

Yes, it can be disconcerting to have to leave some wine in the bottle to
keep
the sediment from being poured into the glass, but that is just the way it
is.
Careful decanting goes a long way toward getting the most wine separated
from
the lees. And, yes, the sediment is not very pleasant, usually quite
bitter.

They are one of the reasons that the bottles of wine, likely to throw
sediment, are shaped as they are, with sharp shoulders. Wines, like Pinot
Noir, are more often packaged into bottles with sloping shoulders, as they
are
less likely to throw sediment. Still, when pouring a PN, especially an
older
one, or a heavily extracted one from the US, it is wise to watch the wine
being poured, so no sediment passes from the bottle.

Hunt

The "sediment" may also be precipitated tartrate crystals, which
usually look like fine sand or sugar in the bottle. This is a harmless
condition that does not in itself affect the flavor or quality of the
wine, although it can be unpleasant to swallow it unawares. As above,
calls for decanting or careful pouring.

Andy

I have only noticed tartrate crystals in whites, but maybe that is because of
the decanting of most of my reds. Maybe Mark, or one of the other chemists in
the crowd can tell me if tartrate crystals are likely to form in red wine.

Hunt

In article . com,
says...



Hunt wrote:
In article , says
....

Are they a sign of a poor wine?
I find them unpleasant, and wasteful if you have
to leave some in the bottle to avoid them.


Interested

They are not a sign of bad wine, nor are they necessarily a sign of good
wine.
They, the lees/sediment are, in short, a natural percipitating out of
solids
in the wine.

Yes, it can be disconcerting to have to leave some wine in the bottle to
keep
the sediment from being poured into the glass, but that is just the way it
is.
Careful decanting goes a long way toward getting the most wine separated
from
the lees. And, yes, the sediment is not very pleasant, usually quite
bitter.

They are one of the reasons that the bottles of wine, likely to throw
sediment, are shaped as they are, with sharp shoulders. Wines, like Pinot
Noir, are more often packaged into bottles with sloping shoulders, as they
are
less likely to throw sediment. Still, when pouring a PN, especially an
older
one, or a heavily extracted one from the US, it is wise to watch the wine
being poured, so no sediment passes from the bottle.

Hunt

A few people will actually look for sediment. It's a sign that the wine
was not "fined" which is sometimes done with egg whites. Vegans don't
want this.

Dan-O

Had not thought about the vegans, being a carnivore myself, but I see your
good point. Also, unfiltered, unfined whites will often yield lees, and other
light colored sediment, as they percipitate out, though they seem far less
offensive to my palette than the lees from reds.

Hunt

"Hunt" wrote in message
...
In article . com,
says...



Hunt wrote:
In article ,
says
...

Are they a sign of a poor wine?
I find them unpleasant, and wasteful if you have
to leave some in the bottle to avoid them.


Interested

They are not a sign of bad wine, nor are they necessarily a sign of good
wine.
They, the lees/sediment are, in short, a natural percipitating out of
solids
in the wine.

Yes, it can be disconcerting to have to leave some wine in the bottle to
keep
the sediment from being poured into the glass, but that is just the way
it
is.
Careful decanting goes a long way toward getting the most wine separated
from
the lees. And, yes, the sediment is not very pleasant, usually quite
bitter.

They are one of the reasons that the bottles of wine, likely to throw
sediment, are shaped as they are, with sharp shoulders. Wines, like
Pinot
Noir, are more often packaged into bottles with sloping shoulders, as
they
are
less likely to throw sediment. Still, when pouring a PN, especially an
older
one, or a heavily extracted one from the US, it is wise to watch the
wine
being poured, so no sediment passes from the bottle.

Hunt

A few people will actually look for sediment. It's a sign that the wine
was not "fined" which is sometimes done with egg whites. Vegans don't
want this.

Dan-O

Had not thought about the vegans, being a carnivore myself, but I see your
good point. Also, unfiltered, unfined whites will often yield lees, and
other
light colored sediment, as they percipitate out, though they seem far less
offensive to my palette than the lees from reds.

Hunt

Thanks to all.
As a newcomer to wines, and having spoiled expectations of technology, I
"expect" my foods and liquids to demand nothing but my tastebuds.
Perhaps I should rethink. Perhaps it's a good experience to see that
something
is still produced as it was long ago.
Some of the sediment is dark coloured and of sand grain size as mentioned,
and
some of it was reminiscent of egg white crystals which really turned me off.
Knowing it was nothing that should not have been there is a blessing.
I still remember the scare stories about Austrian wines, and before that
Italian
wines.

--
Interested

In article , says...


"Hunt" wrote in message
...
In article . com,
says...



Hunt wrote:
In article ,
says
...

Are they a sign of a poor wine?
I find them unpleasant, and wasteful if you have
to leave some in the bottle to avoid them.


Interested

They are not a sign of bad wine, nor are they necessarily a sign of good
wine.
They, the lees/sediment are, in short, a natural percipitating out of
solids
in the wine.

Yes, it can be disconcerting to have to leave some wine in the bottle to
keep
the sediment from being poured into the glass, but that is just the way
it
is.
Careful decanting goes a long way toward getting the most wine separated
from
the lees. And, yes, the sediment is not very pleasant, usually quite
bitter.

They are one of the reasons that the bottles of wine, likely to throw
sediment, are shaped as they are, with sharp shoulders. Wines, like
Pinot
Noir, are more often packaged into bottles with sloping shoulders, as
they
are
less likely to throw sediment. Still, when pouring a PN, especially an
older
one, or a heavily extracted one from the US, it is wise to watch the
wine
being poured, so no sediment passes from the bottle.

Hunt

A few people will actually look for sediment. It's a sign that the wine
was not "fined" which is sometimes done with egg whites. Vegans don't
want this.

Dan-O

Had not thought about the vegans, being a carnivore myself, but I see your
good point. Also, unfiltered, unfined whites will often yield lees, and
other
light colored sediment, as they percipitate out, though they seem far less
offensive to my palette than the lees from reds.

Hunt

Thanks to all.
As a newcomer to wines, and having spoiled expectations of technology, I
"expect" my foods and liquids to demand nothing but my tastebuds.
Perhaps I should rethink. Perhaps it's a good experience to see that
something
is still produced as it was long ago.
Some of the sediment is dark coloured and of sand grain size as mentioned,
and
some of it was reminiscent of egg white crystals which really turned me off.
Knowing it was nothing that should not have been there is a blessing.
I still remember the scare stories about Austrian wines, and before that
Italian
wines.

--
Interested

There are many,many wines that are "over-processed" that will probably not
throw any sediment, though often most of the flavor and character have been
striped away.

Hunt

Salut/Hi Dan The Man,

le/on 1 Jul 2005 09:23:14 -0700, tu disais/you said:-

Sorry, but I must correct this,


A few people will actually look for sediment. It's a sign that the wine
was not "fined" which is sometimes done with egg whites. Vegans don't
want this.

Firstly, you can get sediment on a wine that's been fined, and you can get
it on a wine that's been filtered.

Secondly, not much wine is fined with egg white nowadays unfortunately. Much
fining is done with bentonite, but much more wine is cleared by filtering.

So if vegans are looking for sediment as a proof that no egg white's been
used, then they're living likely to be fooling themselves.

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

(Hunt) wrote:

I have only noticed tartrate crystals in whites, but maybe that
is because of the decanting of most of my reds. Maybe Mark, or
one of the other chemists in the crowd can tell me if tartrate
crystals are likely to form in red wine.

I'm not a chemist, but I do haven encountered tartrate crystals in
red wine, although much less frequent than in whites. They look
the same, albeit deeply red coloured. They often form at the
bottom of the cork, making quite a mess when pulling the cork.

M.

Michael Pronay wrote:
(Hunt) wrote:


I have only noticed tartrate crystals in whites, but maybe that
is because of the decanting of most of my reds. Maybe Mark, or
one of the other chemists in the crowd can tell me if tartrate
crystals are likely to form in red wine.


I'm not a chemist, but I do haven encountered tartrate crystals in
red wine, although much less frequent than in whites. They look
the same, albeit deeply red coloured. They often form at the
bottom of the cork, making quite a mess when pulling the cork.

I too have found tartate crystals in red wine. It's true that white
wines often have more tartrates than red, but both have them in abundance.

Mark Lipton

In article dOcze.129450$x96.65100@attbi_s72, says...

Michael Pronay wrote:
(Hunt) wrote:


I have only noticed tartrate crystals in whites, but maybe that
is because of the decanting of most of my reds. Maybe Mark, or
one of the other chemists in the crowd can tell me if tartrate
crystals are likely to form in red wine.


I'm not a chemist, but I do haven encountered tartrate crystals in
red wine, although much less frequent than in whites. They look
the same, albeit deeply red coloured. They often form at the
bottom of the cork, making quite a mess when pulling the cork.

I too have found tartate crystals in red wine. It's true that white
wines often have more tartrates than red, but both have them in abundance.

Mark Lipton

Now that you mention it, I have noted them on the cork bottoms of reds - duh!
Thanks for jogging my memory.

Hunt

"Ian Hoare" wrote in message
...
Salut/Hi Dan The Man,

le/on 1 Jul 2005 09:23:14 -0700, tu disais/you said:-

Sorry, but I must correct this,


A few people will actually look for sediment. It's a sign that the wine
was not "fined" which is sometimes done with egg whites. Vegans don't
want this.

Firstly, you can get sediment on a wine that's been fined, and you can get
it on a wine that's been filtered.

Secondly, not much wine is fined with egg white nowadays unfortunately.
Much
fining is done with bentonite, but much more wine is cleared by filtering.

So if vegans are looking for sediment as a proof that no egg white's been
used, then they're living likely to be fooling themselves.

Hi, Ian -

There are a couple of points you've touched on that I would like to expand a
bit.

First off, there are a variety of fining agents used in winemaking. Some of
them are the egg whites and bentonite that you've named, as well as gelatin,
isinglass, PVPP, kieselsohl, casein and a number of proprietary
formulations. Each of them is used to address different properties in
wines.

Bentonite is used to remove heat-unstable proteinaceous materials that can
cause clouding in wine after bottling. This is especially true of white
wines, where cloudiness is particularly visible (and objectionable), but it
does occur in some red wines as well - particularly Pinot Noir. Bentonite
is also used prior to filtration to remove gummy particulates that tend to
blind filter media.

Egg whites, gelatin and isinglass are each commonly used to address
excessive tannins in young wines. As you said, egg whites are not so
frequently used nowadays.

PVPP is a synthetic compound that is used to counter browning in white wine
and juice.

Kieselsohl is a silicate compound that is used to help compact fining lees.

Casein is used to remove harshness and/or color from white wines. It also
tends to remove oak flavors.

Various combinations of the above are frequently used to "polish" a wine -
either prior to bottling or prior to filtration and bottling.

On the Vegan topic:
I don't understand why fining materials, such as egg whites or gelatin e.g.,
are an issue at all. The fining materials all precipitate from the wine
(carrying off whatever they were meant to remove) and do not remain in the
finished product.

Furthermore, although some extremely minute traces of them may remain
behind, what about the traces of the yeast itself that remain in ALL wines -
fined or not? Yeast certainly isn't a vegetable or mineral! Are Vegans
permitted to consume products of these microscopic animals?

I can understand the reasons for a vegetarian lifestyle. Avoiding meats,
cheese and eggs will likely extend one's lifetime some amount. What I don't
understand is the extreme fanaticism that seems to be part of the Vegan
philosophy. It seems to be a clear case of picking the fly sh** out of the
pepper!

Tom S

Most fine wines, even those that are completely sediment free when
bought, form a sediment if aged for many years. Even Champagne that is
still perfectly good can have a very small amount of a light colored
sediment if you very carefully handle the bottle and examine with a
strong light before opening.

Vintage port can throw an extremely heavy sediment or crust, and this is
to be expected. Some of the most heavy sedmnts that I have seen are in
BA and TBA wines from the best growers in Germany in the best years.
There often is a very thck layer of tartrate crystals, usually colored
yellow to golden by the pigments in these very rich wines. These
tartrate crystals sometimes can be quite large. They are heavy, so
decanting usually is easy. Many of the 1976 auslese and above German
wines are loaded with tartrate crystals.

Reply to .

"Tom S" wrote in message
m...

"Ian Hoare" wrote in message
...
Salut/Hi Dan The Man,

le/on 1 Jul 2005 09:23:14 -0700, tu disais/you said:-

Sorry, but I must correct this,


A few people will actually look for sediment. It's a sign that the wine
was not "fined" which is sometimes done with egg whites. Vegans don't
want this.

Firstly, you can get sediment on a wine that's been fined, and you can
get
it on a wine that's been filtered.

Secondly, not much wine is fined with egg white nowadays unfortunately.
Much
fining is done with bentonite, but much more wine is cleared by
filtering.

So if vegans are looking for sediment as a proof that no egg white's been
used, then they're living likely to be fooling themselves.

Hi, Ian -

There are a couple of points you've touched on that I would like to expand
a bit.

First off, there are a variety of fining agents used in winemaking. Some
of them are the egg whites and bentonite that you've named, as well as
gelatin, isinglass, PVPP, kieselsohl, casein and a number of proprietary
formulations. Each of them is used to address different properties in
wines.

Bentonite is used to remove heat-unstable proteinaceous materials that can
cause clouding in wine after bottling. This is especially true of white
wines, where cloudiness is particularly visible (and objectionable), but
it does occur in some red wines as well - particularly Pinot Noir.
Bentonite is also used prior to filtration to remove gummy particulates
that tend to blind filter media.

Egg whites, gelatin and isinglass are each commonly used to address
excessive tannins in young wines. As you said, egg whites are not so
frequently used nowadays.

PVPP is a synthetic compound that is used to counter browning in white
wine and juice.

Kieselsohl is a silicate compound that is used to help compact fining
lees.

Casein is used to remove harshness and/or color from white wines. It also
tends to remove oak flavors.

Various combinations of the above are frequently used to "polish" a wine -
either prior to bottling or prior to filtration and bottling.

On the Vegan topic:
I don't understand why fining materials, such as egg whites or gelatin
e.g., are an issue at all. The fining materials all precipitate from the
wine (carrying off whatever they were meant to remove) and do not remain
in the finished product.

Furthermore, although some extremely minute traces of them may remain
behind, what about the traces of the yeast itself that remain in ALL
wines - fined or not? Yeast certainly isn't a vegetable or mineral! Are
Vegans permitted to consume products of these microscopic animals?

I can understand the reasons for a vegetarian lifestyle. Avoiding meats,
cheese and eggs will likely extend one's lifetime some amount. What I
don't understand is the extreme fanaticism that seems to be part of the
Vegan philosophy. It seems to be a clear case of picking the fly sh** out
of the pepper!

Tom S

We all need some understanding.
Perhaps there are vegans out there who cannot understand
the way people who have pet animals can also eat animals.
You appear to require vegans to be completly and utterly
understandable yet seemingly are undisturbed by the
great variablity and contradictory nature of the rest of us.
Suppose a vegan thought that the eggs of chickens were meant
for their natural reproduction, and breeding chickens to produce
eggs for human requirements was not right? Sounds logical.
If we can do it just as well without killing animals, then why not?
Pointing out that vegans might have to choose a point where an
animal is not an animal is no more of a point than those who would
turn off a tv showing a slaughterhouse, yet joyfully consume it's
product.
--
Interested