Now, in general I don't have high expectations for wine in ethnic
restaurants (at least not ethnicities that aren't European or cultures
that are Eurocentric). In most Chinese or Ethiopian places I settle for
beer.

But when one goes to a place that (1) aims for more upper-end dining &
(2) doesn't have wine-hostile cuisine, it seems to be some care could
be put into wine choices. I'm not expecting most upper-end Chinese
places to have a Henry's Evergreen style sensibility, but one would
think SOME thought would be put into list.

Last night Betsy got me ticket to "girl of the Golden West" Her
section-mate Charles asked if he could take us to dinner before the
show. He chose Shun Lee West, one of the old guard of upper-end Chinese
(no real regional reference- some Cantonese, some Szechuan, some Peking
dishes). Betsy and Charles were playing and didn't want wine, so I
asked re white wine by glass choices. "Chardonnay, Sauvignon Blanc, or
Pinot Grigio" The waiter had no clue as to producers -he would have
checked, I just said bring me a Sauvignon Blanc.

So I had an OK glass of SB (I looked at bar as we passed, Fetzer)-
reasonably crisp, no oak. But I kept thinking when my main course (sea
bass in hot bean sauce)came that an off-dry Kabinett would be the way
to go.

Now, I'm not expecting restaurant managers to be winegeeks. And I
realize that "Chinese" includes a lot of options. But virtually any
resource you looked at for suggestions on matching Chinese food with
give as white wine options off-dry Riesling as a good option. Probably
followed by Gewurz, Gruner (if reference is recent), etc. Wouldn't a
more reasonable selection of 3 choices be Chardonnay (cause there's
ALWAYS going to be folks who want Chardonnay), Sauvignon Blanc (as a
familiar Chard alternative, and maybe decent match with Cantonese
seafood) and a Riesling?

This might seem like petty carping. But I made a point of looking
around the (fairly crowded) room last night.Of the 7 tables I was close
enough to observe, 6 had wine glasses on table. Probably 75% of adults
had wine. I'm just disappouinted (but not surprised ) that someone
couldn't put 5 minutes of thought into choices- this is a place that
pays a lot of attention to detail (I thought food had slipped last time
I was there few years ago, but this was rather good, if conventional).

End of rant.

DaleW wrote:
Now, in general I don't have high expectations for wine in
ethnic
restaurants (at least not ethnicities that aren't European or
cultures
that are Eurocentric). In most Chinese or Ethiopian places I
settle
for beer.

Snipping of interesting stuff

This might seem like petty carping. But I made a point of
looking
around the (fairly crowded) room last night.Of the 7 tables I
was
close enough to observe, 6 had wine glasses on table. Probably
75% of
adults had wine. I'm just disappouinted (but not surprised )
that
someone couldn't put 5 minutes of thought into choices- this
is a
place that pays a lot of attention to detail (I thought food
had
slipped last time I was there few years ago, but this was
rather
good, if conventional).

End of rant.

Isn't the main problem that the Chinese do not drink wine with
their food, nothing, water or tea are most usual in my
experience. I like to drink beer with Chinese food myself tho' I
have enjoyed dryish whites but I prefer to eat Chinese food
family style, as do Chinese people I believe, and chosing one
wine for a vast range of dishes is difficult.


--
James V. Silverton
Potomac, Maryland, USA

I'm totally with you, Dale. It wouldn't take much to offer just a
single bottle that matches better! There are quite a few Chinese
restaurants in San Francisco that "get it", and if you're ever in the
LA area, go to Yujean Kang's in Pasadena.
e.

When dining in Chinese restaurants, I've enjoyed absent a wine list, a
couple of bottles of warmed sake.

After my first experience, I found out why most Asians sit close to the
floor!

Mark E Sievert

in article , James Silverton at
wrote on 4/20/05 2:12 PM:

DaleW wrote:
Now, in general I don't have high expectations for wine in
ethnic
restaurants (at least not ethnicities that aren't European or
cultures
that are Eurocentric).

Isn't the main problem that the Chinese do not drink wine with
their food, nothing, water or tea are most usual in my
experience. I like to drink beer with Chinese food myself tho' I
have enjoyed dryish whites but I prefer to eat Chinese food
family style, as do Chinese people I believe, and chosing one
wine for a vast range of dishes is difficult.


During the many years I traveled to Taiwan on business I found that there is
a great deal of alcohol consumed with meals, especially (unless things have
changed lately) by males out to dinner. I've been toasted under the table
(literally), more times than I count, with rice wine, Scotch and brandy, and
of course, beer. Wine (mostly German, French and American) was beginning to
appear (this was as of 5 years ago), but not with much imagination in it's
selection. More recently, I've been told, better wines are beginning to be
used as personal and business gifts, and stats I've seen suggest that wine
consumption is rising rapidly all over Asia.

The lack of a good selection at a restaurant like Shun Lee is curious in
that they have been around for so long, and at such an up-scale level, that
one would think they'd have a decent wine list if their clientele was
requesting it. I'd be inclined to agree that the menu of mixed Chinese
cuisines adds to the difficulty of choice, and also think it's likely that
wine isn't thought of as traditional with what most people likely consider a
traditional ethnic food experience.

I'd really be interested in the opinions of any Asians here on this, as well
as anyone who visits Asia a lot.

DaleW wrote:
Now, in general I don't have high expectations for wine in ethnic
restaurants (at least not ethnicities that aren't European or cultures
that are Eurocentric). In most Chinese or Ethiopian places I settle for
beer.

But when one goes to a place that (1) aims for more upper-end dining &
(2) doesn't have wine-hostile cuisine, it seems to be some care could
be put into wine choices. I'm not expecting most upper-end Chinese
places to have a Henry's Evergreen style sensibility, but one would
think SOME thought would be put into list.

Last night Betsy got me ticket to "girl of the Golden West" Her
section-mate Charles asked if he could take us to dinner before the
show. He chose Shun Lee West, one of the old guard of upper-end Chinese
(no real regional reference- some Cantonese, some Szechuan, some Peking
dishes).

My perspective?

Dale! You were in a Chinese restaurant. Wine is not part of Chinese
cuisine. You might as well expect McDonald's to serve Zinfandel with
Big Macs.

In three or four trips (I lost count) to Hong Kong, I had wine once -
among which was an '82 Latour - but we went to a mostly-French restaurant
in Quarry Bay. In two trips to PRC (People's Republic of China), I had
wine once, and it was some kind of local thing that was less than remarkable.

I had Chinese food every day, two to three times. That's a lot of Chinese
food. The one time I had wine with it, it was a curiosity to everyone
involved.

Real Chinese food isn't served with wine.

You're expecting too much for them to have a high-zoot wine list
at a Chinese restaurant. They'll have high-zoot Chinese food and wine
just isn't part of it.

If you wish, call ahead, discuss the menu with the staff, and arrange
to bring your wine. Perhaps you'll educate them.

But don't criticize a good Chinese restaurant for serving good, authentic
Chinese food.

Dana

"DaleW" wrote in message
ups.com...
Now, in general I don't have high expectations for wine in ethnic
restaurants (at least not ethnicities that aren't European or cultures
that are Eurocentric). In most Chinese or Ethiopian places I settle for
beer.

But when one goes to a place that (1) aims for more upper-end dining &
(2) doesn't have wine-hostile cuisine, it seems to be some care could
be put into wine choices. I'm not expecting most upper-end Chinese
places to have a Henry's Evergreen style sensibility, but one would
think SOME thought would be put into list.


As a lover of wine (politically correct term for alcoholic), I sympathise
with you. If however, we turn the tables and imagine a tea connoisseur
dining in a modern French restaurant could we reasonable expect them to have
even a suggestion of a good selection of tea? I've rarely seen more than
classic 'European' tea blends and/or poor green tea imitators. Where are the
delicious teas the likes of: 'kung fu', 'iron Buddha', 'Buddha's tears',
quality estates and flushes of Darjeeling, Assam, Ceylon... the list goes
on?

Many restaurants cross boundaries, others stick more to what they do best.
Pick and choose accordingly - or bring your own.

Personally, I'd like to see more alcohol-free cocktails (mocktails), iced
teas (not the nasty mass produced 'stuff') and leaf teas available in
restaurants everywhere. It offers a real choice to those working, driving,
or simply choosing not to drink a choice other than nasty cola/soda
products, reconstituted fruit juice and water.

Kind regards,
Adrian
---
Rooview - a personal, independent South Australian restaurant review site.
http://www.rooview.com.au

"DaleW" wrote in message
ups.com...
Now, in general I don't have high expectations for wine in ethnic
restaurants (at least not ethnicities that aren't European or cultures
that are Eurocentric).

And those non-expectations have rarely been unmet - correct, Dale? ;^)

Wouldn't a
more reasonable selection of 3 choices be Chardonnay (cause there's
ALWAYS going to be folks who want Chardonnay), Sauvignon Blanc (as a
familiar Chard alternative, and maybe decent match with Cantonese
seafood) and a Riesling?

Sounds OK to me. As long as there's always _good_ Chardonnay available the
restaurant can vary the other selections considerably AFAIC. If something
sounds interesting I'll often order it instead of my "default".

Rant noted. :^[

Tom S

So you went to a Chinese restaurant with a bad wine list. Why are you
extending this to all "wine in ethnic restaurants"?


Dimitri

So you went to a Chinese restaurant with a bad wine list. Why are you
extending this to all "wine in ethnic restaurants"?


Dimitri

Interesting Dale, I think you need to emigrate. There are some Chinese
restaurants here, (Melbourne), that have excellent wine lists - in the last
couple of weeks I have even seen one that has an 8 page wine list with
headings such as "aromatics" featuring a number of Alsacian Gewurztraminers,
German rieslings and NZ and Aussie Sav Blancs. So it can certainly be done
if the owner has an interest in pairing wine and food. Some even have
banquets and match wines by the glass to each course, including decent
Burgundies with the duck course.

Ron Lel

"DaleW" wrote in message
ups.com...
Now, in general I don't have high expectations for wine in ethnic
restaurants (at least not ethnicities that aren't European or cultures
that are Eurocentric). In most Chinese or Ethiopian places I settle for
beer.

But when one goes to a place that (1) aims for more upper-end dining &
(2) doesn't have wine-hostile cuisine, it seems to be some care could
be put into wine choices. I'm not expecting most upper-end Chinese
places to have a Henry's Evergreen style sensibility, but one would
think SOME thought would be put into list.

Last night Betsy got me ticket to "girl of the Golden West" Her
section-mate Charles asked if he could take us to dinner before the
show. He chose Shun Lee West, one of the old guard of upper-end Chinese
(no real regional reference- some Cantonese, some Szechuan, some Peking
dishes). Betsy and Charles were playing and didn't want wine, so I
asked re white wine by glass choices. "Chardonnay, Sauvignon Blanc, or
Pinot Grigio" The waiter had no clue as to producers -he would have
checked, I just said bring me a Sauvignon Blanc.

So I had an OK glass of SB (I looked at bar as we passed, Fetzer)-
reasonably crisp, no oak. But I kept thinking when my main course (sea
bass in hot bean sauce)came that an off-dry Kabinett would be the way
to go.

Now, I'm not expecting restaurant managers to be winegeeks. And I
realize that "Chinese" includes a lot of options. But virtually any
resource you looked at for suggestions on matching Chinese food with
give as white wine options off-dry Riesling as a good option. Probably
followed by Gewurz, Gruner (if reference is recent), etc. Wouldn't a
more reasonable selection of 3 choices be Chardonnay (cause there's
ALWAYS going to be folks who want Chardonnay), Sauvignon Blanc (as a
familiar Chard alternative, and maybe decent match with Cantonese
seafood) and a Riesling?

This might seem like petty carping. But I made a point of looking
around the (fairly crowded) room last night.Of the 7 tables I was close
enough to observe, 6 had wine glasses on table. Probably 75% of adults
had wine. I'm just disappouinted (but not surprised ) that someone
couldn't put 5 minutes of thought into choices- this is a place that
pays a lot of attention to detail (I thought food had slipped last time
I was there few years ago, but this was rather good, if conventional).

End of rant.

Ron Lel wrote:
Interesting Dale, I think you need to emigrate. There are some Chinese
restaurants here, (Melbourne), that have excellent wine lists - in the last
couple of weeks I have even seen one that has an 8 page wine list with
headings such as "aromatics" featuring a number of Alsacian Gewurztraminers,
German rieslings and NZ and Aussie Sav Blancs. So it can certainly be done
if the owner has an interest in pairing wine and food. Some even have
banquets and match wines by the glass to each course, including decent
Burgundies with the duck course.

Ron Lel



Even in the relatively low rent "family-ish" Chinese places I've been
in, you know, nice reliable food, nothing spectacular, cheesy Chinese
decor, five waiters hand feeding you etc. they've had reasonable wine
lists. Usually at least something like a reliable semillion.

Or BYO. BYO is normally a prerequisite for me when going to a
restaurant. The benefits of BYO are obvious.

"Real Chinese food"

But Dana, when I want real Chinese food I pick a REAL Chinese
restaurant. You've never heard a peep from me when I've gone to
Oriental Garden (Cantonese), Grand Sichuan (Szechuan), Jing Fong
(Shanghai-style dim sum) or the Chiu Chow place on Mott whose name I
can't remember.

Shun Lee is a REAL Chinese-American restaurant, though well-done. Even
the Szechuan dishes are mild enough for wine. The service is
European-American. If most of the customers are drinking wine, one
would think the (otherwise savvy) management would put a little care
into choosing the list. Everything else is done with care (this is a
place with $25-35 main courses, $8 wonton soup, and our side of green
beans was $13- I wasn't paying!).

On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 20:37:00 -0700, "Dana H. Myers" said:

] DaleW wrote:
[]] But when one goes to a place that (1) aims for more upper-end dining &
] (2) doesn't have wine-hostile cuisine, it seems to be some care could
] be put into wine choices. I'm not expecting most upper-end Chinese
] places to have a Henry's Evergreen style sensibility, but one would
] think SOME thought would be put into list.
][]
] My perspective?
]
] Dale! You were in a Chinese restaurant. Wine is not part of Chinese
] cuisine. You might as well expect McDonald's to serve Zinfandel with
] Big Macs.
]
[]

But Dana, in France McDo _does_ serve wine (or beer of course) with the
Big Macs. (What wine, I wonder?) They do because the client wants it.
One might make a similar argument for Dale's joint -- or say that there is
no list simply because the clients don't ask for one often enough.

I can certainly think of a "gastronomique" chinese place in Paris with
a decent wine list. And most asian restaurants there will at least have
a Tavel, and something from Alsace on the list. (Most is probably an
exaggeration, all hole-in-the-walls included.)

-E

--
Emery Davis
You can reply to
by removing the well known companies

"So you went to a Chinese restaurant with a bad wine list. Why are you
extending this to all "wine in ethnic restaurants"? "

Uh, can you show me where I extended it to all wine in ethnic
restaurants (other than in title- I'll do a disclaimer that ALL my
thread titles are by neccesity abbreviated)? Let's see, I specified
high-end restaurants with wine-friendly cuisine. . I mentioned Henry's
Evergreen , as an example of a place with an extraordinary list (I
could have used places Slanted Door, Tabla, or Cinnabar as other
examples).

I just think in a place where much care (and big bucks) are spent on
decor and waiters' outfits, with attentive European -style service,
etc. and where the majority of patrons are ordering wine, that someone
could do 15 minutes reading to see if there is a consensus of what
wines might match with their food.