Being quite young, i still am very found of some of the great things i
learned in my youth. One of them is Moscatel.

Its a sweet fortified wine. Sorry don't have a better translation. In
portuguese the expression is "vinho licoroso" (other latin similar
languages: can you find me a better translation?). A kind of a sherry, or a
Madeira. Generally used for desert or apetizer.

Can be very smooth or sometimes get more bitter, depending on the age and
the producer. The name Moscatel comes out of the grapes of the variety
moscatel. In Portugal we have two regions producing it: Setúbal and Favaios.
And both provide us a very different product, being the Setubal more
smoother.

Amazingly, I've never found anyone out of Portugal who is acquainted with
moscatel, or any other place producing it. Only a few brands in Spain but
with a very different product under the same name.

Does any of you ever heard, ever taste it? Do you know any other places in
the world producing it? Any taste notes about it? Am i the only guy here
who enjoys this stuff?

Best regards
ricardo

www.portugalregional.pt

Hi Ricardo,
On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 01:27:27 -0000, Ricardo Ferreira
wrote:

Being quite young, i still am very found of some of the great things i
learned in my youth. One of them is Moscatel.

Known in italy as Moscato and in France as Muscat.

Its a sweet fortified wine.

Usually, although in Alsace, they ferment it dry.

Can be very smooth or sometimes get more bitter, depending on the age and
the producer. The name Moscatel comes out of the grapes of the variety
moscatel. In Portugal we have two regions producing it: Setúbal and
Favaios.
And both provide us a very different product, being the Setubal more
smoother.

I love the setubel 25 year old from Fonseca. One of the world's great
sweet wines, IMO.

Amazingly, I've never found anyone out of Portugal who is acquainted with
moscatel, or any other place producing it.

You should perhaps look under the names I quoted.

I know Muscats from several places in southern France, Frontignan,
Rivesaltes, Lunel, with (IMO) the best being that from Beaumes de Venise.
In Italy, they make same sparklers from it, some of which are excellent.
The Moscato d'Asti from Bera, for example is an infinitely more
pleasurable match with a wedding cake at weddings than the eternal poor
champagne so often served.

In Greece, (Samos) they also make a Muscat which isn't bad as well. So,
you see .... some of us know the wines both under their Portuguese names
and from elsewhere.
All the best
Ian Hoare
(despite my "from address")

--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/



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"Ricardo Ferreira" wrote:

Amazingly, I've never found anyone out of Portugal who is
acquainted with moscatel, or any other place producing it.

Ian told you already about many other places where muscat is
grown. Let me add that we do have bone dry muscat wines here in
Austria as well as marvellous botrytised examples from its close
relative muscat-ottonel.

In the style you mentioned - fortified, sweet, and well-aged -
Australia has a long and well-known tradition. They call it
"liqueur muscat" over there.

M.

"Ricardo Ferreira" wrote:

Amazingly, I've never found anyone out of Portugal who is
acquainted with moscatel, or any other place producing it.

Ian told you already about many other places where muscat is
grown. Let me add that we do have bone dry muscat wines here in
Austria as well as marvellous botrytised examples from its close
relative muscat-ottonel.

In the style you mentioned - fortified, sweet, and well-aged -
Australia has a long and well-known tradition. They call it
"liqueur muscat" over there.

M.

I live in the US, and have tasted wines from the Muscat grape(under
various names) from many countries.

At one time a huge amount of sweet, fortified Muscatel was made in
California. It was very cheap and gave the Muscat grape a bad name.
However those who drank this many years ago, along with cheap California
"Sherry", "Port", "Angelico" and such, mostly switched to Thunderbird
and such when these flavored wine drinks became available.

I have Fonseca's Moscatel de Setubal 25 year old, the 1934 vintage, and
their Torna Viagem that was traveled around the world in ships. These
are all high class wines of their types. Their younger wie can often be
found in large wine shops in the US.

There is a Moscatel Vintage Madeira, but it is not made so much anymore
as in the 1800s. I have two bottles of de Oliveira Moscatel Vintage
Madeira 1900.

Also a Muscat vintage Malaga was made in Spain quite a bit in the 1800s.
I have one bottle of Gran Muscat Vintage Malaga from the early 1800s.
Malaga does not seem to be very popular in many places anymore, and the
quality of much of it probably is not very high anymore.

Perhaps the most famous Muscat of all is the legendary Constantia from
South Africa. It was once sought by kings and regarded as one of the
best wines of the world. Even in the middle to late 1800s production had
nearly ceased. I have a single bottle of either the 1791 or 1809
vintage. Those who have tasted these old wines often report that they
still drink quite well, despite their age. An attempt is being made to
revive Constantia, but it is much too early to say if the new wines
being made will compare well with the old ones. The old wines used a
mixture of several Muscats to get the taste desired. Also I have read
that the grape bunches were "twisted" so that they nearly cut off the
sap flow as the grapes became very ripe. If done properly, this greaty
increased the sugar content of the grapes. It probably would be very
difficult to develop this skill today, and no doubt quite expensive.

Several decent Muscats are now being made in California now. One example
is Andrew Quady's Elysium Black Muscat.



My mailbox is always full to avoid spam. To contact me, erase
from my email address. Then add . I do not
check this box every day, so post if you need a quick response.

(Cwdjrx _) wrote:

Perhaps the most famous Muscat of all is the legendary
Constantia from South Africa.

Not to forget the rare Muskotaly Aszus from Tokaj.

M.

Michael Pronay wrote:

Ian told you already about many other places where muscat
is grown. Let me add that we do have bone dry muscat
wines here in Austria as well as marvellous botrytised
examples from its close relative muscat-ottonel.

In the style you mentioned - fortified, sweet, and
well-aged - Australia has a long and well-known
tradition. They call it "liqueur muscat" over there.

And let's don't forget Sicilian "Moscato", expecially the
"passito" type wines from Pantelleria: sweet, with an alcohol
addition ("liquoroso") or without.
I also add Moscato d'Asti, sweet and sparkling dessert
wine (the best for Panettone, Pandoro and many traditional
italian cakes).
And just now I start to remember the wonderful Moscato Rosa
from Franz Haas or Elena Walch: both with a spectacularly
tropical nose.
--
Vilco
Think Pink , Drink Rose'

On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 19:55:05 -0800, "john shaw" said:

] Hi Ricardo,
] On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 01:27:27 -0000, Ricardo Ferreira
] wrote:
]
] Being quite young, i still am very found of some of the great things i
] learned in my youth. One of them is Moscatel.
]
] Known in italy as Moscato and in France as Muscat.
]
] Its a sweet fortified wine.
]
] Usually, although in Alsace, they ferment it dry.
[]
] I know Muscats from several places in southern France, Frontignan,
] Rivesaltes, Lunel, with (IMO) the best being that from Beaumes de Venise.
]

Hi,

I thought Muscat de Beaumes de Venise is a VDN (vin doux naturel) i.e.
not fortified. Pretty sure that is the case (and that you know it, of course)
just pointing it out as the OP is talking about fortified.

Another nice little sweet bubbly based on Muscat is Clairette de Die
'Traditionel' which is required IIRC to be 80% muscat, but is often 100%.
These can be delightful, and at around 7-8 % alcohol make a great
aperitif when there's a heavy board coming.

-E


--
Emery Davis
You can reply to
by removing the well known companies

"Ricardo Ferreira" wrote in message .. .
Being quite young, i still am very found of some of the great things i
learned in my youth. One of them is Moscatel.

Its a sweet fortified wine. Sorry don't have a better translation. In
portuguese the expression is "vinho licoroso" (other latin similar
languages: can you find me a better translation?). A kind of a sherry, or a
Madeira. Generally used for desert or apetizer.

Can be very smooth or sometimes get more bitter, depending on the age and
the producer. The name Moscatel comes out of the grapes of the variety
moscatel. In Portugal we have two regions producing it: Setúbal and Favaios.
And both provide us a very different product, being the Setubal more
smoother.

Amazingly, I've never found anyone out of Portugal who is acquainted with
moscatel, or any other place producing it. Only a few brands in Spain but
with a very different product under the same name.

Does any of you ever heard, ever taste it? Do you know any other places in
the world producing it? Any taste notes about it? Am i the only guy here
who enjoys this stuff?

Best regards
ricardo

www.portugalregional.pt

In addition to many that have already been named, I was Moscato in
full force in Sardinia, where I happened to be last week for a few
days. I saw names as per places of origin (e.g. di Cagliari and di
Sardinia. There may be more). There were also sub-classification based
on process of making (normal or Liquoroso) and taste (normal or
Secco). I did try some glasses in bars and quite enjoyed them with the
sardinian pecorino and a "marmalade"-like pickle of organges &
tomatoes that they nake. I imagine that these will also taste good
with cheeses like Gorgonzola. Would anyone care to comment?

There are some Somos wines available in my neighbourhood market and
perhaps I shall try a bottle one of these days - maybe with
Korean-style fried squids or octopus.

Cheers

TB wrote:
"Ricardo Ferreira" wrote in message .. .

Being quite young, i still am very found of some of the great things i
learned in my youth. One of them is Moscatel.

Its a sweet fortified wine. Sorry don't have a better translation. In
portuguese the expression is "vinho licoroso" (other latin similar
languages: can you find me a better translation?). A kind of a sherry, or a
Madeira. Generally used for desert or apetizer.

Can be very smooth or sometimes get more bitter, depending on the age and
the producer. The name Moscatel comes out of the grapes of the variety
moscatel. In Portugal we have two regions producing it: Setúbal and Favaios.
And both provide us a very different product, being the Setubal more
smoother.

Amazingly, I've never found anyone out of Portugal who is acquainted with
moscatel, or any other place producing it. Only a few brands in Spain but
with a very different product under the same name.

Does any of you ever heard, ever taste it? Do you know any other places in
the world producing it? Any taste notes about it? Am i the only guy here
who enjoys this stuff?

Best regards
ricardo

www.portugalregional.pt


In addition to many that have already been named, I was Moscato in
full force in Sardinia, where I happened to be last week for a few
days. I saw names as per places of origin (e.g. di Cagliari and di
Sardinia. There may be more). There were also sub-classification based
on process of making (normal or Liquoroso) and taste (normal or
Secco). I did try some glasses in bars and quite enjoyed them with the
sardinian pecorino and a "marmalade"-like pickle of organges &
tomatoes that they nake. I imagine that these will also taste good
with cheeses like Gorgonzola. Would anyone care to comment?

There are some Somos wines available in my neighbourhood market and
perhaps I shall try a bottle one of these days - maybe with
Korean-style fried squids or octopus.

Cheers
I too have warm memories of the industrial California wine called
"muscatel". In my youth I worked a number of unskilled jobs where I
was in contact with drifters and small-scale sharpsters. They drank
muscatel fairly steadily through the day. Once in a while they shared
some with me and the sweet characterless stuff tasted good. and so in my
late teens I finally felt I was "grown up". I doubt that there was any
muscat in the stuff. It was churned out in rail tank cars and then
bottled at wholesalers across the country. ah youth!

TB wrote:
"Ricardo Ferreira" wrote in message .. .

Being quite young, i still am very found of some of the great things i
learned in my youth. One of them is Moscatel.

Its a sweet fortified wine. Sorry don't have a better translation. In
portuguese the expression is "vinho licoroso" (other latin similar
languages: can you find me a better translation?). A kind of a sherry, or a
Madeira. Generally used for desert or apetizer.

Can be very smooth or sometimes get more bitter, depending on the age and
the producer. The name Moscatel comes out of the grapes of the variety
moscatel. In Portugal we have two regions producing it: Setúbal and Favaios.
And both provide us a very different product, being the Setubal more
smoother.

Amazingly, I've never found anyone out of Portugal who is acquainted with
moscatel, or any other place producing it. Only a few brands in Spain but
with a very different product under the same name.

Does any of you ever heard, ever taste it? Do you know any other places in
the world producing it? Any taste notes about it? Am i the only guy here
who enjoys this stuff?

Best regards
ricardo

www.portugalregional.pt


In addition to many that have already been named, I was Moscato in
full force in Sardinia, where I happened to be last week for a few
days. I saw names as per places of origin (e.g. di Cagliari and di
Sardinia. There may be more). There were also sub-classification based
on process of making (normal or Liquoroso) and taste (normal or
Secco). I did try some glasses in bars and quite enjoyed them with the
sardinian pecorino and a "marmalade"-like pickle of organges &
tomatoes that they nake. I imagine that these will also taste good
with cheeses like Gorgonzola. Would anyone care to comment?

There are some Somos wines available in my neighbourhood market and
perhaps I shall try a bottle one of these days - maybe with
Korean-style fried squids or octopus.

Cheers
I too have warm memories of the industrial California wine called
"muscatel". In my youth I worked a number of unskilled jobs where I
was in contact with drifters and small-scale sharpsters. They drank
muscatel fairly steadily through the day. Once in a while they shared
some with me and the sweet characterless stuff tasted good. and so in my
late teens I finally felt I was "grown up". I doubt that there was any
muscat in the stuff. It was churned out in rail tank cars and then
bottled at wholesalers across the country. ah youth!

"Cwdjrx _" escreveu na mensagem
...
I live in the US, and have tasted wines from the Muscat grape(under
various names) from many countries.


Also a Muscat vintage Malaga was made in Spain quite a bit in the 1800s.
I have one bottle of Gran Muscat Vintage Malaga from the early 1800s.
Malaga does not seem to be very popular in many places anymore, and the
quality of much of it probably is not very high anymore.

Perhaps the most famous Muscat of all is the legendary Constantia from
South Africa. It was once sought by kings and regarded as one of the
best wines of the world. Even in the middle to late 1800s production had
nearly ceased. I have a single bottle of either the 1791 or 1809
vintage. Those who have tasted these old wines often report that they
still drink quite well, despite their age. An attempt is being made to
revive Constantia, but it is much too early to say if the new wines
being made will compare well with the old ones. The old wines used a
mixture of several Muscats to get the taste desired. Also I have read
that the grape bunches were "twisted" so that they nearly cut off the
sap flow as the grapes became very ripe. If done properly, this greaty
increased the sugar content of the grapes. It probably would be very
difficult to develop this skill today, and no doubt quite expensive.


Quite interesting. Never thought it had all that history.
Thank you all for the comments. Its amazing to be able to learn a bit a
day.

Regards
ricardo

"Cwdjrx _" escreveu na mensagem
...
I live in the US, and have tasted wines from the Muscat grape(under
various names) from many countries.


Also a Muscat vintage Malaga was made in Spain quite a bit in the 1800s.
I have one bottle of Gran Muscat Vintage Malaga from the early 1800s.
Malaga does not seem to be very popular in many places anymore, and the
quality of much of it probably is not very high anymore.

Perhaps the most famous Muscat of all is the legendary Constantia from
South Africa. It was once sought by kings and regarded as one of the
best wines of the world. Even in the middle to late 1800s production had
nearly ceased. I have a single bottle of either the 1791 or 1809
vintage. Those who have tasted these old wines often report that they
still drink quite well, despite their age. An attempt is being made to
revive Constantia, but it is much too early to say if the new wines
being made will compare well with the old ones. The old wines used a
mixture of several Muscats to get the taste desired. Also I have read
that the grape bunches were "twisted" so that they nearly cut off the
sap flow as the grapes became very ripe. If done properly, this greaty
increased the sugar content of the grapes. It probably would be very
difficult to develop this skill today, and no doubt quite expensive.


Quite interesting. Never thought it had all that history.
Thank you all for the comments. Its amazing to be able to learn a bit a
day.

Regards
ricardo

Emery Davis wrote:

I thought Muscat de Beaumes de Venise is a VDN (vin doux
naturel) i.e. not fortified. Pretty sure that is the case (and
that you know it, of course) just pointing it out as the OP is
talking about fortified.

Sorry, but VDNs - all of them! - *are* fortified. The N, standing
for "naturel", says nothing else that the sweetness comes only
from from the sugar in the grapes (chaptalisation, concentration,
and cryoextraction verboten). One of the relevant texts, on Muscat
de Beaumes de Venise:

| Art. 4. - (Modifié D. 22 juin 1956, D. 19 mai 1972 et D.
| 21.janvier 1975) - Les vins bénéficiant de l'appellation
| contrôlée susvisée devront être obtenus avec les moûts possédant
| obligatoirement une richesse naturelle initiale en sucre de 252
| grammes au minimum par litre, dans lesquels a été fait, en cours
| de fermentation, un apport évalué en alcool pur de 5 % au
| minimum et de 10 % au maximum du volume des moûts à l'aide
| d'alcool titrant au moins 95°.
|
| Les vins faits doivent titrer une richesse minimum en alcool
| acquis de 15° et contenir au moins 110 grammes de sucre par
| litre.

From:
http://www.inao.gouv.fr/public/produ...ID_TEXTE_CONSO
LIDE=460&mnu=171

or

http://snipurl.com/av55

M.

On 24 Nov 2004 11:06:21 GMT, Michael Pronay said:

] Emery Davis wrote:=20
]=20
] I thought Muscat de Beaumes de Venise is a VDN (vin doux=20
] naturel) i.e. not fortified. Pretty sure that is the case (and=20
] that you know it, of course) just pointing it out as the OP is=20
] talking about fortified.=20
]=20
] Sorry, but VDNs - all of them! - *are* fortified. The N, standing
] for "naturel", says nothing else that the sweetness comes only
] from from the sugar in the grapes (chaptalisation, concentration,
] and cryoextraction verboten). One of the relevant texts, on Muscat
] de Beaumes de Venise:=20
]=20

Thanks Michael, I stand corrected. =20

That's what I love about afw, even on subjects where I *ought* to know,
I can still learn!

-E

] | Art. 4. - (Modifi=E9 D. 22 juin 1956, D. 19 mai 1972 et D.
] | 21.janvier 1975) - Les vins b=E9n=E9ficiant de l'appellation
] | contr=F4l=E9e susvis=E9e devront =EAtre obtenus avec les mo=FBts poss=
=E9dant
] | obligatoirement une richesse naturelle initiale en sucre de 252
] | grammes au minimum par litre, dans lesquels a =E9t=E9 fait, en cours
] | de fermentation, un apport =E9valu=E9 en alcool pur de 5 % au
] | minimum et de 10 % au maximum du volume des mo=FBts =E0 l'aide
] | d'alcool titrant au moins 95=B0.=20
] |
] | Les vins faits doivent titrer une richesse minimum en alcool
] | acquis de 15=B0 et contenir au moins 110 grammes de sucre par
] | litre.=20
]=20
] From:=20
] http://www.inao.gouv.fr/public/produ...ID_TEXTE_CONSO
] LIDE=3D460&mnu=3D171
]=20
] or
]=20
] http://snipurl.com/av55
]=20
] M.


--=20
Emery Davis
You can reply to
by removing the well known companies