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Default Wine made with "powders"

My FIL allowed me to open one of his special bottled to serve with when I made him his favourite osso buco. Crociani Vino Nobile di Montepulciano Riserva. He explained that it was special because it was hand made without the use of powders that people sadly use to adjust the flavours nowadays to make bad wine drinkable.

I would have thought it was only "4 buck chuck" wines that were made that way and that anything that is natively 10$+ is "special" according to his definition (by natively I mean the winery reference price, not a crazy import-taxed price).

I checked his special bottle and it is pretty cheap; 17euro in current vintages 2009.

Anyone have insight how common it is to use "powders" to adjust bad taste?


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Default (Discussion) Wine made with "powders"

"Michael Nielsen" wrote ......................

> My FIL allowed me to open one of his special bottled to serve with when I
> made him his favourite osso buco. Crociani Vino Nobile di Montepulciano
> Riserva. He explained that it was special because it was hand made
> without the use of powders that people sadly use to adjust the flavours
> nowadays to make bad wine drinkable.
>
> I would have thought it was only "4 buck chuck" wines that were made that
> way and that anything that is natively 10$+ is "special" according to his
> definition (by natively I mean the winery reference price, not a crazy
> import-taxed price).
>
> I checked his special bottle and it is pretty cheap; 17euro in current
> vintages 2009.
>
> Anyone have insight how common it is to use "powders" to adjust bad taste?


Michael, let me preface this commentary by saying, firstly I am NOT a
winemaker, oenologist nor viticulturist - and my interest nowadays in purely
in (a great reduced) consumption.

Secondly, I do not know of this producer (I am familiar, however, with the
wines and practices of this region).

Having been raised on a small dairy farm, the subject(s) of growing
practices, biodynamic and organic, have been of interest to me for some
time.

However, vineyard practices have little or nothing to do with additives used
during the winemaking process.

Without wanting to start an argument (but in the interests of informed
discussion) there is no such thing as "biodynamic wine" or "organic wine" -
more correctly, these wines could be titled "wines made from grapes grown
biodynamically" or "organically".

Many producers are making, marketing and promoting as 'natural wines".

These wines must:

* be made from organically grown grapes;
* be hand harvested;
* be rushed to the winery without the use of metabisulfite during
harvesting;
* be fermented on wild yeasts;
* may not re-use pomace
* and must contain very low levels of sulfite (or none at all).

"Conventional" winemaking may use: mechanical harvesting; innoculation with
commercial yeasts; re-use of pomace (think wines made with the "ripasso
method"); reverse osmosis; use of ion exchange resins, acacia gum, oak chips
and fining agents and addition of sulfites, acid and sugars (as permitted in
some countries), tannins and other agents to correct colour, acid, PH levels
and winemaking faults.

I have perused the website of Crociani - they make no claims as to
viticultural methods, although I do know that others in the Montepulciano
area are "converting" to biodynamic and organic growing (Avignonesi).

In her "Oxford Companion to Wine" my friend Jancis Robinson sates "€œIt would
be impossible to produce an entirely sulfur-free wine since a small amount
of sulfur dioxide is one of the by-products of the metabolic reaction of
yeast during fermentation.€

Even if Crociani was already (they make no claims to being so), or were in
the process of becoming an organic winery, applying biodynamics in the
vineyard, while they would be committed to using as little sulfites in their
wines as possible. European regulations do permit its use.

According to their web-site, they do hand-harvest. I am making the
assumption that they macerate the grapes to stimulate the wild yeasts
present, but I would be very surprised if, like many winemakers, they did
not from time to time innoculate with other selected yeasts?" (Note: these
are "powdered, freeze dried products which would be accompanied by powdered
nutrients).

Every winemaker, at some time or another, has had to deal with grapes with
less than the ideal PH or acid levels. The use of various salts or chalk is
frequently used to correct these imbalances.

In less than ideal vintages, I would be surprised indeed if their winemaker
did not use every trick in his winemaking arsenal to turn grapes into $$$$
(or Euros) by the addition or use of any permitted material, powdered or
otherwise.

On the subject as you have raised " the use of powders ...... to adjust the
flavours ... to make bad wine drinkable", again, from experience, I have
been there when winemakers used a variety of "permitted materials" (copper
sulphate being one) to correct faults in wine - not so much to make
"bad wine drinkable" but to remedy faults in the process so that grapes
from a very poor harvest were able to made into "something marketable"
out of commercial necessity.

I have never experienced a smaller "artisan or boutique" type producer
resort to these techniques to attempt to pass off an inferior wine as a
premium product.

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Default Wine made with "powders"

Michael Nielsen > wrote in
:

> My FIL allowed me to open one of his special bottled to serve with
> when I made him his favourite osso buco. Crociani Vino Nobile di
> Montepulciano Riserva. He explained that it was special because it was
> hand made without the use of powders that people sadly use to adjust
> the flavours nowadays to make bad wine drinkable.
>
> I would have thought it was only "4 buck chuck" wines that were made
> that way and that anything that is natively 10$+ is "special"
> according to his definition (by natively I mean the winery reference
> price, not a crazy import-taxed price).
>
> I checked his special bottle and it is pretty cheap; 17euro in current
> vintages 2009.
>
> Anyone have insight how common it is to use "powders" to adjust bad
> taste?
>
>


A wine priced at 17 euro is a premium wine by all standards. The idea of
a wine been made with the help of powders is confusing. Does it mean
that the wine was made with some powders to which water is added (a la
"Tang")? I do not think this is possible.

Now, wine is a product of human intervention. From the vineyard to the
bottle, there is a lot of human intervention or wine is not possible.
Vines have to be managed, pruned, kept free from diseases (mildiu,
oidium...), canopy has to be managed and sometimes that implies de-
leafing. Production quantities have to be managed too in order to get a
balance between alcoholic and physiological ripeness at the day of
harvest.

Some of these interventions require "powders" and some of them are even
considered acceptable by organic and biodinamic certification agencies.
After all, when you make a tisane with camomile you are using some sort
of "powder". Same when you use copper sulphate (as said by sthelier).

And, in the winery, there are many other ways to the intervention, from
the use of fermentation starters, to cultures of yeasts (that actually
can impart a flavor profile) to the use of oak barrels to impart some
flavor and structure to the wines.

There are some wineries aiming to lower-end wines still in the premium
category (which is every wine above 3-5 euro / bottle) that use
"powders" like citric or tartaric acid to balance an over-ripe wine,
liquid tanin to save some money in barrels, or oak chips. Even oak
sawdust which impart the oak flavor very quickly at a very low cost.
Some wineries even chaptalize their wines when they do not get enough
ripeness (and use sugar, another powder) or as part of their production
process (eg Champagne).

The only wine category in which I think that there are no-powders is the
natural wine category, which is quite fashionable nowadays in some
circles. You know what they say about those wines (I am tongue in cheek
here): "Natural wines, red or white, all of them a variety of orange".

Good wineries prefer to make the best possible work at the vineyard,
substituting treatments with pesticides or herbicides by work at the
vineyard, getting a good balance of alcoholic/physiological ripeness in
the fruit so that no corrections are needed, employing the native yeasts
naturally present in the grape skins and therefore not using
fermentation starters or cultured yeasts, and for sure not correcting
acidity or chaptalizing. Oak barrels will be the choice over chips or
sawdust to impart structure. But most of them will employ a bit of
sulphur at bottling time or wine would oxidize very quickly.

If this concept interests you, I suggest that you look for wines made
within the certification standards of Organic / Ecologic / Biodynamic.
There are also many wineries doing these type of wines without
certifications but you should get to know the winery, visit it, walk the
vineyards and learn about them.

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On 30/08/2014 04:08, st.helier wrote:

> Without wanting to start an argument (but in the interests of informed
> discussion) there is no such thing as "biodynamic wine" or "organic
> wine" - more correctly, these wines could be titled "wines made from
> grapes grown biodynamically" or "organically".


Er, also in the interests of informed discussion, in the nicest possible
way I need to tell you that you are are wrong

As far as I know there has been biodynamic wine for a long time. Here
is the relevant statement from Demeter, with the standard that covers
wine production:
http://www.biodynamic.org.uk/certifi...amic-wine.html

Regarding organic wine, you are probably thinking of old EU definitions.
It used to be the case that you could only claim that the grapes were
grown organically, but this changed a couple of years ago. And
elsewhere in the world, including the USA, there have been official
definitions of organic wine for a longer time:
http://www.frenchfoodintheus.org/spip.php?article3792

--
www.winenous.co.uk
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Default (Discussion) Wine made with "powders"

"Steve Slatcher" wrote ...........

On 30/08/2014 04:08, st.helier wrote:

>> Without wanting to start an argument (but in the interests of informed
>> discussion) there is no such thing as "biodynamic wine" or "organic
>> wine" - more correctly, these wines could be titled "wines made from
>> grapes grown biodynamically" or "organically".

>
> Er, also in the interests of informed discussion, in the nicest possible
> way I need to tell you that you are are wrong


> As far as I know there has been biodynamic wine for a long time. Here is
> the relevant statement from Demeter, with the standard that covers wine
> production:
>
> http://www.biodynamic.org.uk/certifi...amic-wine.html
>
> Regarding organic wine, you are probably thinking of old EU definitions.
> It used to be the case that you could only claim that the grapes were
> grown organically, but this changed a couple of years ago. And elsewhere
> in the world, including the USA, there have been official definitions of
> organic wine for a longer time:
>
> http://www.frenchfoodintheus.org/spip.php?article3792


Steve, thank you for these links - very interesting reading (particularly
the one in respect to "biodynamic wine")

Perusing the list of "permitted additives" and practises, I wonder why they
bother !!!

Great - biodynamically (certified) grown grapes, but then a myriad of
compromises. Permitted are -

* Machine harvesting
* Use of plastic to transfer material (wine, juice)
* Addition of sugar (even non-certified)
* Addition of water to mash / must !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
* Use of bought in yeast (in some cases)
* Use of SO2
* Use of acidity regulators
* Use of non-certified and non-organic fining agents.

Here in NZ these are several producers who grow using biodynamic principals.

However, they do not use the expression "Biodynamic Wine" or "Organic
Wine".

They chose to label their wines "Wine from certified biodynamic or certified
organic grapes"

To me, so called "Biodynamic wines" are made from grapes grown using the
principles of biodynamic viticulture.

As "santiago" has stated - once in the winery human intervention takes over.

To me, the "standards" are no more than a compromise to allow wines to be
called "biodynamic" - as a marketing gimmick, and I am surprised that the
Demeter organisation has allowed these compromises.

Initially, I thought that the whole principal of biodynamic farming was in
the realms of fantasy.

But, I do know several people growing fruit and vegetables - and dairy
farmers and they have made me reconsider my stance.

But, the fruits and raw milk are not compromised in any way.



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Default (Discussion) Wine made with "powders"

On Sunday, August 31, 2014 1:59:59 AM UTC-6, st.helier wrote:
> "Steve Slatcher" wrote ...........
>
>
>
> On 30/08/2014 04:08, st.helier wrote:
>
>
>
> >> Without wanting to start an argument (but in the interests of informed

>
> >> discussion) there is no such thing as "biodynamic wine" or "organic

>
> >> wine" - more correctly, these wines could be titled "wines made from

>
> >> grapes grown biodynamically" or "organically".

>
> >

>
> > Er, also in the interests of informed discussion, in the nicest possible

>
> > way I need to tell you that you are are wrong

>
>
>
> > As far as I know there has been biodynamic wine for a long time. Here is

>
> > the relevant statement from Demeter, with the standard that covers wine

>
> > production:

>
> >

>
> > http://www.biodynamic.org.uk/certifi...amic-wine.html

>
> >

>
> > Regarding organic wine, you are probably thinking of old EU definitions..

>
> > It used to be the case that you could only claim that the grapes were

>
> > grown organically, but this changed a couple of years ago. And elsewhere

>
> > in the world, including the USA, there have been official definitions of

>
> > organic wine for a longer time:

>
> >

>
> > http://www.frenchfoodintheus.org/spip.php?article3792

>
>
>
> Steve, thank you for these links - very interesting reading (particularly
>
> the one in respect to "biodynamic wine")
>
>
>
> Perusing the list of "permitted additives" and practises, I wonder why they
>
> bother !!!
>
>
>
> Great - biodynamically (certified) grown grapes, but then a myriad of
>
> compromises. Permitted are -
>
>
>
> * Machine harvesting
>
> * Use of plastic to transfer material (wine, juice)
>
> * Addition of sugar (even non-certified)
>
> * Addition of water to mash / must !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> * Use of bought in yeast (in some cases)
>
> * Use of SO2
>
> * Use of acidity regulators
>
> * Use of non-certified and non-organic fining agents.
>
>
>
> Here in NZ these are several producers who grow using biodynamic principals.
>
>
>
> However, they do not use the expression "Biodynamic Wine" or "Organic
>
> Wine".
>
>
>
> They chose to label their wines "Wine from certified biodynamic or certified
>
> organic grapes"
>
>
>
> To me, so called "Biodynamic wines" are made from grapes grown using the
>
> principles of biodynamic viticulture.
>
>
>
> As "santiago" has stated - once in the winery human intervention takes over.
>
>
>
> To me, the "standards" are no more than a compromise to allow wines to be
>
> called "biodynamic" - as a marketing gimmick, and I am surprised that the
>
> Demeter organisation has allowed these compromises.
>
>
>
> Initially, I thought that the whole principal of biodynamic farming was in
>
> the realms of fantasy.
>
>
>
> But, I do know several people growing fruit and vegetables - and dairy
>
> farmers and they have made me reconsider my stance.
>
>
>
> But, the fruits and raw milk are not compromised in any way.


Well, part of the problem is that the Demeter organization is charging a lot US$10,000 to certify as biodynamic. That is a lot of cash. I have no issue with biodynamic practices. They seem to be good farming with some mystical BS thrown in but I have yet to see it improve wine quality and that is my bottom line as long as vineyard practices are good environmentally.
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Default Wine made with "powders"

On Saturday, August 30, 2014 12:03:14 AM UTC+2, Michael Nielsen wrote:
> My FIL allowed me to open one of his special bottled to serve with when I made him his favourite osso buco. Crociani Vino Nobile di Montepulciano Riserva. He explained that it was special because it was hand made without the use of powders that people sadly use to adjust the flavours nowadays to make bad wine drinkable.
>
>
>
> I would have thought it was only "4 buck chuck" wines that were made that way and that anything that is natively 10$+ is "special" according to his definition (by natively I mean the winery reference price, not a crazy import-taxed price).
>
>
>
> I checked his special bottle and it is pretty cheap; 17euro in current vintages 2009.
>
>
>
> Anyone have insight how common it is to use "powders" to adjust bad taste?


No time to go into details of the responses atm but would like to clarify "powders":

- Not talking about the trekking wine powder
- Not talking biodynamic/organic.
- I have had organic wines in california without sulfites. they were horrible. Just fruit juice. Ive had organic wines that tasted just like normal wine, and they had sulfites haha. And some say that they are at the wineries even though they don't have certification.
- The Crociani has sulfites in it (thank godness!)

- It is the modifications of the taste profile in the must that was the topic. sugars, acids, etc. I would have thought that premium wines would display the true nature of the grapes as they were that vintage- no modification? But what I get from the replies is that it isnt so?



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On Monday, September 1, 2014 12:58:14 AM UTC-6, Michael Nielsen wrote:
> On Saturday, August 30, 2014 12:03:14 AM UTC+2, Michael Nielsen wrote:
>
> > My FIL allowed me to open one of his special bottled to serve with when I made him his favourite osso buco. Crociani Vino Nobile di Montepulciano Riserva. He explained that it was special because it was hand made without the use of powders that people sadly use to adjust the flavours nowadays to make bad wine drinkable.

>
> >

>
> >

>
> >

>
> > I would have thought it was only "4 buck chuck" wines that were made that way and that anything that is natively 10$+ is "special" according to his definition (by natively I mean the winery reference price, not a crazy import-taxed price).

>
> >

>
> >

>
> >

>
> > I checked his special bottle and it is pretty cheap; 17euro in current vintages 2009.

>
> >

>
> >

>
> >

>
> > Anyone have insight how common it is to use "powders" to adjust bad taste?

>
>
>
> No time to go into details of the responses atm but would like to clarify "powders":
>
>
>
> - Not talking about the trekking wine powder
>
> - Not talking biodynamic/organic.
>
> - I have had organic wines in california without sulfites. they were horrible. Just fruit juice. Ive had organic wines that tasted just like normal wine, and they had sulfites haha. And some say that they are at the wineries even though they don't have certification.
>
> - The Crociani has sulfites in it (thank godness!)
>
>
>
> - It is the modifications of the taste profile in the must that was the topic. sugars, acids, etc. I would have thought that premium wines would display the true nature of the grapes as they were that vintage- no modification? But what I get from the replies is that it isnt so?


I'm just a bit confused where you are going with this line of reasoning. By powders, to what exactly are you referring. Sugar, acid, sulfur, non-native yeasts, or wine flavored powder. Do vintners manipulate wine nowadays. For some, yes they do. Reverse osmosis to remove alcohol is certainly a manipulation that would not violate organic rules though. All wine making is modification unless you go back to the way it was done originally to simply press the grapes, add water and stick it in an amphora in the ground. Outside of Croatia, don't know too many vintners making wine that way.
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On Monday, September 1, 2014 5:53:02 PM UTC+2, lleichtman wrote:
> I'm just a bit confused where you are going with this line of reasoning. By powders, to what exactly are you referring. Sugar, acid, sulfur, non-native yeasts, or wine flavored powder. Do vintners manipulate wine nowadays. For some, yes they do. Reverse osmosis to remove alcohol is certainly a manipulation that would not violate organic rules though. All wine making is modification unless you go back to the way it was done originally to simply press the grapes, add water and stick it in an amphora in the ground. Outside of Croatia, don't know too many vintners making wine that way.


So in conclusion the crociani wine is special in not having been modified with adding powders such as acid and sugar. Pingus, chateau latour and rothshild, 1000$+ burgundies use powders?
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On 9/1/2014 1:06 PM, Michael Nielsen wrote:

> So in conclusion the crociani wine is special in not having been modified with adding powders such as acid and sugar. Pingus, chateau latour and rothshild, 1000$+ burgundies use powders?
>

Allowed is not the same as used. Most winemakers are a bit coy about
what they do. I know of one who claims not to use sulfites, but of
course his wines have sulfites, he just gets away with the naturally
occurring ones. Oak chip bags immersed in wine impart exactly the same
chemical changes to wine as oak barrels just not as elegantly and
usually overly so. A wine is bad to me because it is overly oaked.
Whether by bag or barrel is of little concern other than as to price.


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Michael Nielsen > wrote in
:
>
> So in conclusion the crociani wine is special in not having been
> modified with adding powders such as acid and sugar.


We should ask the winemaker about that. Who knows.


> Pingus, chateau
> latour and rothshild, 1000$+ burgundies use powders?



I doubt Pingus, Chateau Latour and Lafite or Mouton use powders. They
probably use selection of the best lots to bottle under their Grand Vin and
declassify other lots. Or sell them in bulk.


Some time ago, it was not uncommon that wines were chaptalized almost every
vintage in Bordeaux and, for the record, this is still rather common
practice in Burgundy nowadays.

In Spain you do not find much chaptalization (sugar) but you find quite
some acidification. Different terroirs... different unbalances.

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Default Wine made with "powders"

On Monday, September 1, 2014 2:00:24 PM UTC-4, santiago wrote:
> Michael Nielsen > wrote in
>
> :
>
> >

>
> > So in conclusion the crociani wine is special in not having been

>
> > modified with adding powders such as acid and sugar.

>
>
>
> We should ask the winemaker about that. Who knows.
>
>
>
>
>
> > Pingus, chateau

>
> > latour and rothshild, 1000$+ burgundies use powders?

>
>
>
>
>
> I doubt Pingus, Chateau Latour and Lafite or Mouton use powders. They
>
> probably use selection of the best lots to bottle under their Grand Vin and
>
> declassify other lots. Or sell them in bulk.
>
>
>
>
>
> Some time ago, it was not uncommon that wines were chaptalized almost every
>
> vintage in Bordeaux and, for the record, this is still rather common
>
> practice in Burgundy nowadays.
>
>
>
> In Spain you do not find much chaptalization (sugar) but you find quite
>
> some acidification. Different terroirs... different unbalances.


Given the vast array of additives available the term "powders" could mean just about anything but for whatever reason I assumed he meant tannin powder since it is an agent that is fairly commonly used to adjust tannin levels and flavor profiles.
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On Tuesday, September 2, 2014 4:42:34 PM UTC+2, Bi!! wrote:
> Given the vast array of additives available the term "powders" could mean just about anything but for whatever reason I assumed he meant tannin powder since it is an agent that is fairly commonly used to adjust tannin levels and flavor profiles.


The origin of the word "powders" is someone at Crociani winery that told my father in law (in italian) , who then told me, with my wife translating directly from italian to english: "their wines are special because they are not made with powders, as sadly is the case nowadays". My reply was that I certainly hope they do add sulfites, as sulfite free wine is horrible. and the bottle did say "contains sulfites". The father mentioned as an example sugar as a powder that might be added at other wineries.



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Michael Nielsen wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 2, 2014 4:42:34 PM UTC+2, Bi!! wrote:
>> Given the vast array of additives available the term "powders"
>> could mean just about anything but for whatever reason I assumed he
>> meant tannin powder since it is an agent that is fairly commonly
>> used to adjust tannin levels and flavor profiles.

>
> The origin of the word "powders" is someone at Crociani winery that
> told my father in law (in italian) , who then told me, with my wife
> translating directly from italian to english: "their wines are
> special because they are not made with powders, as sadly is the case
> nowadays". My reply was that I certainly hope they do add sulfites,
> as sulfite free wine is horrible. and the bottle did say "contains
> sulfites". The father mentioned as an example sugar as a powder that
> might be added at other wineries.
>
>
>


As others have said, many wines are Chaptalized by the addition of sugar
and many others are acidifed by the addition of tartrate. Both of those
are established practices that go back generations and correct for
weather-related problems (not sunny or hot enough or too hot,
respectively). In cheaper, mass-produced wines you can find the
addition of tannin powder to give wines more structure than nature has
endowed them with.

Beyond the addition of powders, though, you have many other
manipulations that have become commonplace in many wine regions.
Reverse osmosis and spinning cone technologies are used to lower the
alcohol levels in (over)ripe wines, MegaPurple and pectinase are added
to the must to increase extraction in red wines and designer yeasts are
chosen to impart certain flavors in the fermentation. As Joseph Coulter
mentioned, oak chips or oak dust are added to wines in lieu of barrel
aging to impart "new oak" flavors for a fraction of the price of a new
barrel. There is even a company in California, Vinovations, that will
analyze your wine, identify which manipulations are needed to fit a
desired "flavor profile" and then perform said manipulations to
transform your wine into whatever you set as your target.

As Joseph also said, winemakers are very coy about revealing what goes
on in their cellars. Right now, Paul Draper of Ridge is arguing for a
law that would require wineries to list the ingredients in their wines,
a move that's being fiercely resisted by many wineries. Should that
happen, you'll see many winery practices change very rapidly, as the
image of peasants stomping grapes with their feet still sells a lot of
wine in the US.

Mark Lipton
(jaded consumer)
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Default Wine made with "powders"

On Wed, 03 Sep 2014 00:09:04 -0400, Mark Lipton wrote:

> As others have said, many wines are Chaptalized by the addition of sugar
> and many others are acidifed by the addition of tartrate. Both of those
> are established practices that go back generations and correct for
> weather-related problems (not sunny or hot enough or too hot,


It is said that you used to see pallets of sacs behind the wineries in
France. As you drove from north to south, the writing on the sacs would
change, from beet sugar to tartaric acid.

Adding sugar to the must is called chaptalisation, and it was certainly
more than common practice in (e.g) Bordeaux. I don't know what the
current status is, but as yields are often quite high chaptalisation is
done to bring up the alcohol levels even by the most prestigious names,
for example
http://www.decanter.com/bordeaux-201...verage/586770/
bordeaux-2013-chateaux-forced-to-chaptalise-in-toughest-vintage-for-years

-E

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Default (Discussion) Wine made with "powders"

On 30/08/2014 23:24, Steve Slatcher wrote:> On 30/08/2014 04:08,
st.helier wrote:
>
> > Without wanting to start an argument (but in the interests of informed
> > discussion) there is no such thing as "biodynamic wine" or "organic
> > wine" - more correctly, these wines could be titled "wines made from
> > grapes grown biodynamically" or "organically".

>
> Er, also in the interests of informed discussion, in the nicest possible
> way I need to tell you that you are are wrong
>
> As far as I know there has been biodynamic wine for a long time. Here
> is the relevant statement from Demeter, with the standard that covers
> wine production:
>

http://www.biodynamic.org.uk/certifi...amic-wine.html

>
>
> Regarding organic wine, you are probably thinking of old EU definitions.
> It used to be the case that you could only claim that the grapes were
> grown organically, but this changed a couple of years ago. And
> elsewhere in the world, including the USA, there have been official
> definitions of organic wine for a longer time:
> http://www.frenchfoodintheus.org/spip.php?article3792


I recently dug the EU "organic wine regs" out of the Web in another
context, so thought I'd post the link here for the record...
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/...42:0047:EN:PDF

Steve

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