(this was prompted by a discussion on a web-based bulletin board, but I thought
about AFW, where these posts are fairly common)

For quite a few year I've been a participant here. It's pretty common to get
queries about the value of bottles that the new poster has found (whether
inherited, or discovered when renovating his basement, or whatever). Now, most
of them are along the lines of "I just found a bottle of 1979 Mouton-Cadet in
my grandmother's attic in Arizona, it says Rothschild on it, I want to sell it
and take a trip to Hawaii! Where do I sell it? Can I get $2,000?"
But sometimes there's someone with an interesting bottle (or eight). Now, most
of the regulars (including me) inevitably suggest that the poster would be
better off drinking than selling (we're not usually talking $1,000 plus bottles
here, but things along the lines of '88 Lynch-Bages or '85 Cantemerle, possibly
good but not worth big bucks). But thinking about it, is that really best
advice?

Sure, I'd love it if that older bottle turned someone into a wine-lover. But
frankly I don't think that serious wine drinking is for most people- you need a
certain type of personality, both sensuous and analytic, to really get into
wine. Someone whose interest is sparked because they found a bottle is unlikely
to suddenly want to learn the differences between Pomerol and St. Julien. So
maybe we'd be better off just telling them to go to winecommune, and see that
someone who might appreciate it gets a chance to drink it?

I'm certainly not for encouraging speculation, flipping, etc. But in these
instances it seems that this increases the supply for winedrinkers, without
depriving anyone of anything. My biggest concern would be that the person who
is not a wine enthusiast might have less scruples about lying about storage
conditions than a geek. I'm not set on this position, it's just a thought.

As an afterthought, is there anyone here who actually found their interest in
wine through finding your grandpa's '61 Chasse-Spleen?
Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

Dale wrote:
<snip>
>Sure, I'd love it if that older bottle turned someone into a wine-lover. But
>frankly I don't think that serious wine drinking is for most people- you need
>a
>certain type of personality, both sensuous and analytic, to really get into
>wine. Someone whose interest is sparked because they found a bottle is
>unlikely
>to suddenly want to learn the differences between Pomerol and St. Julien. So
>maybe we'd be better off just telling them to go to winecommune, and see that
>someone who might appreciate it gets a chance to drink it?

<snip>

I would agree that folks who don't drink wine should probably sell those "wine
finds" but for different reasons. I'm not sure that one's first expereince
with wine should be an old wine. Old wine can be a bit like Scotch in that it
requires some experience to acquire a taste for it. Often old Bordeaux can be
quite unpalatable to a new palate.
>

Bi!!

Dale wrote:
<snip>
>Sure, I'd love it if that older bottle turned someone into a wine-lover. But
>frankly I don't think that serious wine drinking is for most people- you need
>a
>certain type of personality, both sensuous and analytic, to really get into
>wine. Someone whose interest is sparked because they found a bottle is
>unlikely
>to suddenly want to learn the differences between Pomerol and St. Julien. So
>maybe we'd be better off just telling them to go to winecommune, and see that
>someone who might appreciate it gets a chance to drink it?

<snip>

I would agree that folks who don't drink wine should probably sell those "wine
finds" but for different reasons. I'm not sure that one's first expereince
with wine should be an old wine. Old wine can be a bit like Scotch in that it
requires some experience to acquire a taste for it. Often old Bordeaux can be
quite unpalatable to a new palate.
>

Bi!!

Dale wrote:
<snip>
>Sure, I'd love it if that older bottle turned someone into a wine-lover. But
>frankly I don't think that serious wine drinking is for most people- you need
>a
>certain type of personality, both sensuous and analytic, to really get into
>wine. Someone whose interest is sparked because they found a bottle is
>unlikely
>to suddenly want to learn the differences between Pomerol and St. Julien. So
>maybe we'd be better off just telling them to go to winecommune, and see that
>someone who might appreciate it gets a chance to drink it?

<snip>

I would agree that folks who don't drink wine should probably sell those "wine
finds" but for different reasons. I'm not sure that one's first expereince
with wine should be an old wine. Old wine can be a bit like Scotch in that it
requires some experience to acquire a taste for it. Often old Bordeaux can be
quite unpalatable to a new palate.
>

Bi!!

"Dale Williams" in ...
> ... So maybe we'd be better off just telling them to go to
> winecommune, and see that someone who might appreciate
> it gets a chance to drink it?
>
> ... My biggest concern would be that the person who
> is not a wine enthusiast might have less scruples about
> lying about storage conditions than a geek. I'm not set on
> this position, it's just a thought.

Among amateur wine collectors, especially casual ones (whose bottles might
be "found" after years), the problem of storage temperature is front and
center. There is plenty of risk without even the issue of scruples. Many
people are unconscious of the extent to which wine held for years becomes an
exquisite recorder, or litmus paper, for its temperature history. In fact I
have known some fairly sophisticated US collectors who rationalize away, for
years, any need for temperature control (which indeed is less convenient
than using natural storage facilities, whether they are truly adequate or
not). The damage done by inadequate amateur storage shows up clearly
enough, when you collect some bottles from a range of sources and
blind-taste them.

This happened dramatically at a marathon day-long blind tasting about a year
ago on the San Francisco peninsula, of privately cellared 1990s Burgundies,
jointly organized by tasting groups in the region. (Allen Meadows, the US
writer on Burgundies, joined us to lead the discussions.) One of the
unexpected upshots was the incidence of evidently poorly stored bottles
among those tasted. This was especially dramatic where people had recent
experience with well-stored examples of the same wine. And these were
fairly serious collectors, at least they had invested some important money
into these wines.

(By the way, a good thoughtful posting, Dale.)

-- Max

"Dale Williams" in ...
> ... So maybe we'd be better off just telling them to go to
> winecommune, and see that someone who might appreciate
> it gets a chance to drink it?
>
> ... My biggest concern would be that the person who
> is not a wine enthusiast might have less scruples about
> lying about storage conditions than a geek. I'm not set on
> this position, it's just a thought.

Among amateur wine collectors, especially casual ones (whose bottles might
be "found" after years), the problem of storage temperature is front and
center. There is plenty of risk without even the issue of scruples. Many
people are unconscious of the extent to which wine held for years becomes an
exquisite recorder, or litmus paper, for its temperature history. In fact I
have known some fairly sophisticated US collectors who rationalize away, for
years, any need for temperature control (which indeed is less convenient
than using natural storage facilities, whether they are truly adequate or
not). The damage done by inadequate amateur storage shows up clearly
enough, when you collect some bottles from a range of sources and
blind-taste them.

This happened dramatically at a marathon day-long blind tasting about a year
ago on the San Francisco peninsula, of privately cellared 1990s Burgundies,
jointly organized by tasting groups in the region. (Allen Meadows, the US
writer on Burgundies, joined us to lead the discussions.) One of the
unexpected upshots was the incidence of evidently poorly stored bottles
among those tasted. This was especially dramatic where people had recent
experience with well-stored examples of the same wine. And these were
fairly serious collectors, at least they had invested some important money
into these wines.

(By the way, a good thoughtful posting, Dale.)

-- Max

> the problem of storage temperature is front and
>center.

Hi Max,

Indeed. While I've had some bottles (mostly Barolo,Rhone, or Bordeaux) that
have survived abuse rather well, the far more common scenario is a bottle that
I know from experience CAN be good being sub-par. There have been some larger
offlines where we went for 2 bottles of each (2 different people bringing a
bottle of the same wine), the difference can be amazing.

Frankly, I don't bother with looking at winecommune myself for this very
reason. Life's too short to drink cooked wine.

And then there's what happened before the person bought it. Especially in the
case of Burgundy, I only buy from a few trusted sources. That applies even to
current releases- do I want to pay $40 for a bottle of Roumier Chambolle that
sat in a store at 75 degrees F over the summer? In NY I buy Burgs ONLY from
Rochambeau, Zachys, Sherry-Lehmann and Chambers St. (Morrell's, BWC, Acker,
and the Wine Shop are probably ok, but either not convenient or cheap enough
for me). I've had enough bad experiences elsewhere to stop.

All that being said, I personally have passive storage. The oldest Burgundy I
currently own is '88, along with a scattering of '90s and '93s. My storage
seems to be adequate for my uses, which doesn't tend to aim at keeping
Burgundies or Champagnes for decades. But if I decided to sell something (to
date I never have, though I have done many trades with folks familiar with my
storage), I'd accept that I'd take a penalty for passive storage vs. what I
might get if I had stored professionally.

best,
Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

> the problem of storage temperature is front and
>center.

Hi Max,

Indeed. While I've had some bottles (mostly Barolo,Rhone, or Bordeaux) that
have survived abuse rather well, the far more common scenario is a bottle that
I know from experience CAN be good being sub-par. There have been some larger
offlines where we went for 2 bottles of each (2 different people bringing a
bottle of the same wine), the difference can be amazing.

Frankly, I don't bother with looking at winecommune myself for this very
reason. Life's too short to drink cooked wine.

And then there's what happened before the person bought it. Especially in the
case of Burgundy, I only buy from a few trusted sources. That applies even to
current releases- do I want to pay $40 for a bottle of Roumier Chambolle that
sat in a store at 75 degrees F over the summer? In NY I buy Burgs ONLY from
Rochambeau, Zachys, Sherry-Lehmann and Chambers St. (Morrell's, BWC, Acker,
and the Wine Shop are probably ok, but either not convenient or cheap enough
for me). I've had enough bad experiences elsewhere to stop.

All that being said, I personally have passive storage. The oldest Burgundy I
currently own is '88, along with a scattering of '90s and '93s. My storage
seems to be adequate for my uses, which doesn't tend to aim at keeping
Burgundies or Champagnes for decades. But if I decided to sell something (to
date I never have, though I have done many trades with folks familiar with my
storage), I'd accept that I'd take a penalty for passive storage vs. what I
might get if I had stored professionally.

best,
Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

> the problem of storage temperature is front and
>center.

Hi Max,

Indeed. While I've had some bottles (mostly Barolo,Rhone, or Bordeaux) that
have survived abuse rather well, the far more common scenario is a bottle that
I know from experience CAN be good being sub-par. There have been some larger
offlines where we went for 2 bottles of each (2 different people bringing a
bottle of the same wine), the difference can be amazing.

Frankly, I don't bother with looking at winecommune myself for this very
reason. Life's too short to drink cooked wine.

And then there's what happened before the person bought it. Especially in the
case of Burgundy, I only buy from a few trusted sources. That applies even to
current releases- do I want to pay $40 for a bottle of Roumier Chambolle that
sat in a store at 75 degrees F over the summer? In NY I buy Burgs ONLY from
Rochambeau, Zachys, Sherry-Lehmann and Chambers St. (Morrell's, BWC, Acker,
and the Wine Shop are probably ok, but either not convenient or cheap enough
for me). I've had enough bad experiences elsewhere to stop.

All that being said, I personally have passive storage. The oldest Burgundy I
currently own is '88, along with a scattering of '90s and '93s. My storage
seems to be adequate for my uses, which doesn't tend to aim at keeping
Burgundies or Champagnes for decades. But if I decided to sell something (to
date I never have, though I have done many trades with folks familiar with my
storage), I'd accept that I'd take a penalty for passive storage vs. what I
might get if I had stored professionally.

best,
Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

I agree that the storage conditions are one of the main concerns in
buying wines - either from most retail outlets or from individuals. If
anything, storage conditions before the wine has been bought at retail
may be far more abusive than storage in an air conditioned home. I once
had an importer tell me a horror story about how a certain distributor
stored wine along with spirits in a warehouse without any temperature
control in the summer. There were stories of Burgundy that arrived in
southern US ports in the summer and baked on the docks so much that the
corks were forced upward and stretched the foil capsule. I had a wine
retailer say she would not carry wine from the mentioned distributer,
even if it was the only source of the wine in the state.

The safest way to buy older wines, unless you know how the wines were
stored, probably is at auction from a few of the better houses that have
a reputation to consider. Most of these houses will insist on tasting
samples of wine before buying it from someone unknown to them. If there
is a cosiderable quantity of a single wine, they may offer a presale
tasting.

However, for older wine there can be considerable bottle variation for a
wine bought from one source at the same time and stored in a single
cellar. I have a few wines that were bought in an unopened case soon
after release up to over 30 years ago. The bottle variation for a few is
not subtle, even if one excludes leaky corks and corked wines. There
could be many possible reasons for this, but I could only speculate.
Some bottles might barely leak in a little air, some might have just a
trace of a corked problem that is too little to taste as such, but
enough to make the wine seem a bit flat compared with other bottles,
etc.



My mailbox is always full to avoid spam. To contact me, erase
from my email address. Then add . I do not
check this box every day, so post if you need a quick response.

"Dale Williams" in ...
> > the problem of storage temperature is front and
> >center.
>
> All that being said, I personally have passive storage. ...
> My storage seems to be adequate for my uses, which
> doesn't tend to aim at keeping Burgundies or Champagnes
> for decades.

And I don't know that your uncooled storage is uncool. My comments
concerned cases where it might be so. My own experience is mainly in
Northern California, which possesses many microclimates, a few of them
naturally serviceable for storage. And you are 4137 km from me (as a point
of potential interest, some 1.66 times the distance from Paris to Moscow of
2491 km), therefore may have different conditions.

I am not the expert on this subject but am told by generally good sources
that my own micro-climate averages cellar-depth soil temperatures that,
though stable, are enough warmer than, say, Western Europe's to make the
difference in natural storage at soil temperature. (Those millennia of
human experience with storing and aging wines in natural cellars were not in
my neighborhood.)

The wine enthusiast seeking cool, stable storage has multiple practical
options today even for a small collection in temporary quarters. The whole
genre of wine cabinets or special-purpose refrigerators, some decorative,
some utilitarian. Metropolitan areas offer commercial storage of wine in
subdivided space within warehouses, and some of these services are
excellent. There is always the option (I reserve this for temporary staging
or trans-shipment needs) of wheeling a "Pinguino" portable air conditioner
into an interior room and running the outlet hose out a door or window.

Be cool. -- Max

Dale Williams wrote:
> (this was prompted by a discussion on a web-based bulletin board, but I thought
> about AFW, where these posts are fairly common)
>
> For quite a few year I've been a participant here. It's pretty common to get
> queries about the value of bottles that the new poster has found (whether
> inherited, or discovered when renovating his basement, or whatever). Now, most
> of them are along the lines of "I just found a bottle of 1979 Mouton-Cadet in
> my grandmother's attic in Arizona, it says Rothschild on it, I want to sell it
> and take a trip to Hawaii! Where do I sell it? Can I get $2,000?"
> But sometimes there's someone with an interesting bottle (or eight). Now, most
> of the regulars (including me) inevitably suggest that the poster would be
> better off drinking than selling (we're not usually talking $1,000 plus bottles
> here, but things along the lines of '88 Lynch-Bages or '85 Cantemerle, possibly
> good but not worth big bucks). But thinking about it, is that really best
> advice?

Perhaps not.

> Sure, I'd love it if that older bottle turned someone into a wine-lover. But
> frankly I don't think that serious wine drinking is for most people- you need a
> certain type of personality, both sensuous and analytic, to really get into
> wine. Someone whose interest is sparked because they found a bottle is unlikely
> to suddenly want to learn the differences between Pomerol and St. Julien. So
> maybe we'd be better off just telling them to go to winecommune, and see that
> someone who might appreciate it gets a chance to drink it?

Most often, the wine will not be worth the small fortune the
uninitiated thought it would be in the first place.

Probably the best suggestion is for the uninitiated to find
a wine enthusiast and drink the bottle with the enthusiast.
True enthusiasts will likely realize if the bottle is indeed
valuable and guide the owner appropriately; otherwise the
enthusiast will have a chance to introduce the owner to
something new.

Collecting wine is like collecting Beanie Babies, with a somewhat
longer horizon before worthlessness is achieved in all the rarest
cases.

Dana